Hard Shipping Gelding Proposal

[Minimor]

minimomNC - the wording in this proposal quite plainly specifies that all geldings, not just those that have AMHA, ASPC or Falabella papers, are to be allowed to hardship:

Add:Only stallions or mares holding current AMHA or ASPC registration papers can be hard shipped into AMHR. Unregistered geldings may be hard shipped into the registry with a veterinarians certification of gelding and a Stewards inspection and measurement of the animal at a sanctioned show. Geldings will be permitted to be hard shipped for show purposes only.

Delete:

F. HARDSHIP: Only animals holding current AMHA or ASPC registration papers can be hardshipped into the AMHR. Contact the AMHR office for details and prices.

The proposal regarding the $50 is a separate proposal but could be implemented in addition to the above quoted proposal.

 

[minimomNC]

I stand corrected, there was so much in there that was double or triple posted that I missed that part, I did see the fee reduction one. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways LOL

 

[midnight star stables]

Before AMHR requires DNA or PQ'd on hardshipped horses they need to make it mandatory for registering AMHR and ASPC horses first.

I think IMO AMHR should always accept hardshipping in from ASPC ponies. Now do I think they should lower the price because they are already part of the registry, no I don't. I do think the geldings need to be lower then the mares but not by $50. Now will there come a time that we will close hardshipping for AMHA and Fabella? Yes I can see that happen, especially now that AMHA is closing its books, but yet that might give AMHR more opportunities to bring in more members and horses, but I don't know. When it comes to Fabella I don't know why we allow hardshipping from them, but whatever.

I think everyone understands we cannot allow unregistered geldings being hardshipped into AMHR. That wouldn't do anybody any good. I think what it comes down to it is the price of hardshipping. I still stand by what I said, geldings need to be lower then mares but not $50, $100 is more reasonable.

I wasn't going to say anything, because I'm not going to get to vote at Convention anyways, however I thought I would just add my two cents.

IMO I think that THIS particular proposal should be voted down. Nevertheless, I wouldn't mind seeing unregistered geldings aloud in. Why? Because I don't see a huge flood of horses being affected by this.

I do see numerous people in the area that own "pet" stallions, almost always unregistered or with lost papers. I feel that if some of them had an incentive to geld the horse, making it more "valuable" in their eyes, they might be willing to do so. This would open a new door for the horse. I see this type of proposal affecting families with the back yard pet pony. I don't see it hurting registered breeders to any extreme. Most unregistered stock in my area, are cute, chubby and stocky. I don't see horses like these hurting us, but rather bringing new people into our breed.

A gelding is what it is. Gelding are not in the highest of demand in our breed and I think that encouraging them could only be a good thing. More geldings also lower the over population rate - which is a higher concern to me.

I agree and disagree. A gelding can do no damage to a breed. POA's allow hardshipping of geldings. BUT - and a huge BUT - it needs to cost enough to make people strongly think about paying the fee to have a gelding registered. A fee of just $50 is an insult to reputable breeders.

PROS -

More money for the registry

More Money for shows and clubs

More good geldings out there to promote the breed

CONS -

If kept at a ridiculously low fee, it will hurt breeders

Therefore, more junk horses could be admitted to the breed

So I thnk that geldings should continue to be hardshipped into AMHR, BUT at a fee of no less than $500.

Ruffian, I agree with your post almost 100%. I just want to ask why adding "junk horses" to the breed would be a huge issue? Like you said, geldings can do no damage to a breed and I think it would only encourage the owner to shop for a better horse at a later date. Also I wanted to point out that what is junk to you may be gold to another - as with anything.

That cute, chubby and stocky pet might not be what you or I want, but it may be perfect for the 8 year old little girl starting out in the ring. Or that ugly headed, ewe-necked horse may make a kick-butt performance horse.

IMO, who cares what they look like? If they are loved and have a job then that is what matters most. Because a gelding is what he is, we don't have to worry about them passing any faults on to the next generation. And I know you never meant "junk" literally, but I used it to point out some of the unique and wonderful points about geldings. My geldings aren't the cream of the crop but that's why they are geldings, and I love them.

I also think the price should be $300-350, but I wouldn't lose sleep if it were higher. "Big guys" that want to change the name of a horse will always be around, and it won't matter to them if you raise it to $1500. But that isn't an area where I am worried about either, so my opinion may be bias?

So as a person standing openly on this topic, I am confused as to why some are so apposed. What I find odd is that some people on this thread who are against hardshipping unregistered geldings, have some extremely nice horses and offer horses at very reasonable prices. I can't see how horses of such quality at such affordable prices would be hurt by this proposal. The market is down. Period. But there will always be a desire for quality.

I'll admit that I don't fully understand the need to shoot down all proposals for hardshipping unregistered geldings. Just wanted to add my two cents.

 

[LaVern]

I think I took this thread a little off topic, but I don't think it is too much of a hardship to have to prove that the horse is worthy of being allowed into our Registry by proving it's AMHA or ASPC heritage. Most of the AMHA's are already PQ'd so it would be no problem for them. And it is not very hard or expensive to do it with Kentucky, so I don't see why the ASPC horses would not be totally in favor of this, as they are very proud of their breed and heritage. Perhaps the cost of doing this could be taken off the hardship fee.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

With all that you are describing who would benefit from but I don't see anywhere where it would benefit AMHR breeders?

These are tough times for everybody. Its even tougher to sell registered geldings. Especially if the price of $50 gets passed then whats the benefit of getting a registered gelding. Yes the market for minis isn't good right now, the backyard breeders don't help. But when it comes to their stallions whats going to make them wanting to geld them just to have papers? The new owners of these young colts whats it going to take them to hardship them in?

The important thing is education and educate new possible miniature horse owners out there the importance of buying a registered horse. Why do some go to backyard breeders? Because their prices are extremely low and all families want is a miniature pet. Show them what these guys can do and learn how fun it could be to show them.

Educate, educate, educate, thats what really needs to happen. Get the word out about AMHR.

 

[susanne]

I agree with Midnight Star, and would like to add a thought based upon my own experience.

When I adopted Mingus, I took him in out of love -- I had no desire to show or breed. He was simply a sweet, skinny horse who needed a home. After he regained his health and weight, he matured into a handsome, proud young horse. He loved to show off, and everyone on this forum encouraged me to hardship and show him. I had him gelded and hardshipped him.

We've done fairly well in local and regional AMHR shows, including beating some well-known farms. One judge told me afterward that she received complaints from breeders for choosing him for the blue ribbon over their pedigreed horses.

This thread infers that if hardshipping doesn't exist, people like me would buy one of THEIR geldings in order to show.

In my case, this is not true. I NEVER (at that time) would have purchased ANY horse just to show. I would have continued to love MY horse and stay home.

However, since Mingus brought me into this world, I have adopted one other "grade" mini and purchased two registered horses, one AMHR, one ASPC(future AMHR).

My point is, being able to hardship Mingus led me to purchase from established farms, whereas before I never would have. Hardshipping created a new customer where one did not exist.

So, keep in mind that those hardshipped gelding could well create a future customer for you.

In addition, I have to doubt that very many of your potential customers, those looking for a show gelding, would opt to search amongst rescues or grade pony farms for their next champion. Your quality horses will rise to the top, while allowing hardshipping will build a larger customer base for you.

 

[midnight star stables]

With all that you are describing who would benefit from but I don't see anywhere where it would benefit AMHR breeders?

My thoughts are that it would affect breeders when people with the grade horse start looking to add another to their herd. They will go to AMHR breeders, because those AMHR papers open a whole new world of opportunities. People strive to improve and don't likely go looking for another "cheap" buy(unless they are looking to breed and "make a buck"). I find that people often buy their first mini on a whim and then learn about the breed and soon buy a registered horse with better conformation. I don't see many people going out of their way to buy grade miniatures, and hardly ever is there a market for grade miniature geldings. They sell for peanuts.

These are tough times for everybody. Its even tougher to sell registered geldings. Especially if the price of $50 gets passedI did say I hope that proposal does not get past too.

then whats the benefit of getting a registered gelding. Because buying grade is buying without pedigree, without guarantee and limits showing opportunities and lowers the overall cost value. Those papers make a huge difference to 99% of us here on this forum. I know I would turn down an amazing horse if it didn't carry AMHR papers. Those papers are important.

Yes the market for minis isn't good right now, the backyard breeders don't help. But when it comes to their stallions whats going to make them wanting to geld them just to have papers?It is a selling feature. And every less stallion out there means less foals. The new owners of these young colts whats it going to take them to hardship them in? The option to show! Showing is a wonderful hobby. It is something that makes my family stronger and we started out with a grade miniature and an AMHA gelding.

Showing is fun and offers many goals and rewards(training and improving, ribbons, Hi-point awards, All-Star, HOF, etc.). Showing means more to me than winning, to me showing is a chance to have fun with friends who share a common love for tiny horses. My college friends don't see my miniatures the same way my horse friends do.

The important thing is education and educate new possible miniature horse owners out there the importance of buying a registered horse. Why do some go to backyard breeders? Because their prices are extremely low and all families want is a miniature pet. Show them what these guys can do and learn how fun it could be to show them. I understand what you are saying, but 8 times out of 10 a person's first mini is a grade. It's the same as my dogs and cats. People start off looking for a pet, and then they fall in love. I truly don't see this changing anytime soon, but that is why I think gelding those grade horses would be an asset to AMHR and the breeders.

Educate, educate, educate, thats what really needs to happen. Get the word out about AMHR.

 

[Minimor]

Desiree - for those who have grade stallions and believe that those stallions are WONDERFUL stallions, I have serious doubts that they would be encouraged to geld just by the fact that they would be able to get registration papers for their horse if they transform that stallion into a gelding. Most of them would likely believe their grade stallion is much more valuable than any registered gelding.

Those who want DNA/PQ done on all hardshipped horses--you do realize that for ASPC ponies in most cases it would not be just the hardship animal that must be DNA/PQ, it would also be sire and dam that would have to be DNA'd in order to be able to PQ that hardshipped horse. If I remember right, even for AMHA the horse doesn't have to be PQ'd in order to be hardshipped--it just has to be DNA'd. By requiring PQ on any horse being hardshipped in (ASPC or AMHR) you could be eliminating some from any possibility of AMHR registration just because one or both parents could be deceased or simply unavailable (sold with papers never being transferred....as we all know happens so often in all of the small equine registries!). And if you say too bad, so sad, just remember that if/when DNA/PQ becomes a requirement for AMHR foal registrations, you could find yourself in the same boat....too bad, so sad, the dam or sire died before DNA was taken and now the foal can't be registered!

I just find it amazing that anyone would suggest that hardshipped horses are likely to be someone other than who they are claimed to be, and yet there is no concern about the AMHR foals (off AMHR parents) not being who they are supposed to be? Given the number of hardship registrations vs. the number of regular AMHR registrations I would suggest that the concern over "fraudulent" horses should focus first on the portion of the registry with the most registrations....

Actually my suggestion would be to "DNA all new registrations". Granted you wouldn't get PQ that way, but once those "new registrations" reach breeding age, then their offspring would be PQ'd at the time DNA is done. There's more I would say about DNA but since this thread really isn't anything to do with DNA...after all, there is no DNA proposal on the books for this year...I will save it for another time.

 

[LaVern]

I am going to start a new top because I led this astray. Sorry.

 

[Songcatcher]

And every less stallion out there means less foals.

I've really got to disagree with this. I fully believe that if half the stallions in AMHA and AMHR were gelded, the number of foals would not decrease by more than 1%. However, the quality might improve.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I still feel like if we let unregistered geldings in its going to be even harder for breeders to sell their geldings and you know what then perhaps we may have a surplus of registered colts on our hands. What would be the incentive to geld them? IMO AMHR is starting to do that. We have the new Super Gelding program (altho we don't hear much about). Once AMHR starts show a good reason to geld the colts more people will start doing it. I feel like if this passed we would just take a step backwards.

Minimor I agree with you if people want to start DNA in AMHR and ASPC we need to set a year when all new foals will be DNA'd. For example starting in 2012 all 2012 foals and future foals will need to be DNA'd in order for them to have any foals. I'm sorry IMO I don't see any reason to DNA geldings. I just don't.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I've really got to disagree with this. I fully believe that if half the stallions in AMHA and AMHR were gelded, the number of foals would not decrease by more than 1%. However, the quality might improve.

Yep the focous should be how many mares got bred. You can have 1 stallion and breed 50 mares and maybe a slight chance of 50 new foals. People just need to breed for less and go for quality. IMO even some of the bigger farms breed to many foals and then we see production sales every year.

 

[ruffian]

"Ruffian, I agree with your post almost 100%. I just want to ask why adding "junk horses" to the breed would be a huge issue? Like you said, geldings can do no damage to a breed and I think it would only encourage the owner to shop for a better horse at a later date. Also I wanted to point out that what is junk to you may be gold to another - as with anything. That cute, chubby and stocky pet might not be what you or I want, but it may be perfect for the 8 year old little girl starting out in the ring. Or that ugly headed, ewe-necked horse may make a kick-butt performance horse. IMO, who cares what they look like? If they are loved and have a job then that is what matters most. Because a gelding is what he is, we don't have to worry about them passing any faults on to the next generation. And I know you never meant "junk" literally, but I used it to point out some of the unique and wonderful points about geldings. My geldings aren't the cream of the crop but that's why they are geldings, and I love them"

You know what - you are absolutely right! I shouldn't have said "Junk". It reminded me of a "junk" gelding I had. He had a roman nose, knobby knees, short neck. I had one foal by him (early days before I knew even less than the little I know now!) and it turned out to be a dwarf. The stallion got gelded. He turned into one of the best little driving horses I've ever had - going Top Ten at Nationals. Certainly wasn't on looks but heart and class. I was stupid and sold him and regret it to this day. Thanks for giving me a reminder of a not-so-beautiful, talented, big hearted little gelding.

 

[tifflunn]

I have an unregistered( with AMHR) B Gelding in my barn that I would pay $500.00 to register- I have been waiting for the opportunity to do so- maybe it will come maybe it wont- non the less he still stays here I still vet and feed him, and he is loved and paid attention too, he is still shown at club and fair shows and if the opportunity arises I will hardship him into the R registery.

I do expect to have to pay a heafty price tag and jump through some hoops to get a horse hardship registered.

I have all but one gelding in my barn and would I add more even if the above gelding is hardshipped in, Yes. The above gelding has his job here and his purpose- and would be used more if he was registered- but he would not take the place of me purchasing another Registered Gelding- I have many purposes here- weather it would be the kids showing, entertaining visiting people, my showing, parades, and maybe a husband horse one day.

For the geldings that I do have that are registered- I paid for them - they were not the most expensive out there but I paid a nice dollar for them. Would I still pay a nice dollar for another gelding if the above gelding was hardshipped in- Yes

 

[Carolyn R]

I have not read through all of the posts, maybe this has been said already.

I have to say that I am a breeder that has NO PROBLEM gelding my colts. I will list them for sale, but my horses are welcome to stay here, if a great home comes along, so be it. Once a colt nears the 1 year mark, I geld it, if not sooner. I have two stallions I adore and at this point in time do not have any desire to have deal with more hormones than needed. My horses are A/R registered, I would not breed something without papers just as I would not purchase a mixed puppy from the local paper that is being sold for profit when the litter was an accident due to the owners carelessness.

Why reward those that practice irresponsable equine management, no matter how nice the offspring. Does it give them the incentive to geld so that horse can not reproduce, maybe, but it also gives them the incentive to keep crossing the unregistered stock if they find a market for it.

On the other hand I have to say that I am always truely disgusted at the amount of breeders of registered mini stock that do not want to geld (even if the horse is gelding material) because it limits the market on that horse. They only have those interested in geldings looking to buy, if they keep it intact they increase their market and do not need to put money into the gelding fees. I have run into this more times than not and it drives me nuts.

Yes, there are few nice geldings out there on some sites, but I have to say that I looked at approx. 20 sites this morning in surrounding states, there was not one gelding listed for sale. (there are only two sites that are withing 10 hours that have geldings listed, there may be more, but as I said, while looking this morning, out of 20 sites there were colts, stallions, and mares, but no geldings for sale).

If someone is looking for a gelding, MANY of the responses are for intact stallions that people will have gelded for them.

Yes, when you geld, many times you need to hold onto that mini until it hits 2-3 years old and is mature enough to start ground driving, but there are many people that are getting into minis and want a gelding to start out with.

I just feel the registries need to stay the course and reward breeders of registered minis that choose to geld.

There is no reward to responsible breeders when unregistered stock is allowed into the registry, even if it is only as a gelding. I do not feel it will generate a ton of revenue, lets face it, an irresponsible breeder will only spend money on a sure thing. I feel it will only cause sour grapes for those that are responsible breeders of registered animals and choose to geld.

Okay, time to put my soap box away

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I have not read through all of the posts, maybe this has been said already.

I have to say that I am a breeder that has NO PROBLEM gelding my colts. I will list them for sale, but my horses are welcome to stay here, if a great home comes along, so be it. Once a colt nears the 1 year mark, I geld it, if not sooner. I have two stallions I adore and at this point in time do not have any desire to have deal with more hormones than needed. My horses are A/R registered, I would not breed something without papers just as I would not purchase a mixed puppy from the local paper that is being sold for profit when the litter was an accident due to the owners carelessness.

Why reward those that practice irresponsable equine management, no matter how nice the offspring. Does it give them the incentive to geld so that horse can not reproduce, maybe, but it also gives them the incentive to keep crossing the unregistered stock if they find a market for it.

On the other hand I have to say that I am always truely disgusted at the amount of breeders of registered mini stock that do not want to geld (even if the horse is gelding material) because it limits the market on that horse. They only have those interested in geldings looking to buy, if they keep it intact they increase their market and do not need to put money into the gelding fees. I have run into this more times than not and it drives me nuts.

Yes, there are few nice geldings out there on some sites, but I have to say that I looked at approx. 20 sites this morning in surrounding states, there was not one gelding listed for sale. (there are only two sites that are withing 10 hours that have geldings listed, there may be more, but as I said, while looking this morning, out of 20 sites there were colts, stallions, and mares, but no geldings for sale).

If someone is looking for a gelding, MANY of the responses are for intact stallions that people will have gelded for them.

Yes, when you geld, many times you need to hold onto that mini until it hits 2-3 years old and is mature enough to start ground driving, but there are many people that are getting into minis and want a gelding to start out with.

I just feel the registries need to stay the course and reward breeders of registered minis that choose to geld.

There is no reward to responsible breeders when unregistered stock is allowed into the registry, even if it is only as a gelding. I do not feel it will generate a ton of revenue, lets face it, an irresponsible breeder will only spend money on a sure thing. I feel it will only cause sour grapes for those that are responsible breeders of registered animals and choose to geld.

Okay, time to put my soap box away

I know this may be off topic but also I can't stand it when breeders keep breeding more and more and don't take the time to train the foals, by the time they sell the horse the buyer has a mess to deal with. Breed less, train more, geld more, and maybe you get more potential buyers. Sorry it irks me to know end when breeders don't take the time to train their horses, and I mean just the fundamentals, and their exucse is it makes them better to show in the ring

 

[Margot]

I have not read through all of the posts, maybe this has been said already.

I have to say that I am a breeder that has NO PROBLEM gelding my colts. I will list them for sale, but my horses are welcome to stay here, if a great home comes along, so be it. Once a colt nears the 1 year mark, I geld it, if not sooner. I have two stallions I adore and at this point in time do not have any desire to have deal with more hormones than needed. My horses are A/R registered, I would not breed something without papers just as I would not purchase a mixed puppy from the local paper that is being sold for profit when the litter was an accident due to the owners carelessness.

Why reward those that practice irresponsable equine management, no matter how nice the offspring. Does it give them the incentive to geld so that horse can not reproduce, maybe, but it also gives them the incentive to keep crossing the unregistered stock if they find a market for it.

On the other hand I have to say that I am always truely disgusted at the amount of breeders of registered mini stock that do not want to geld (even if the horse is gelding material) because it limits the market on that horse. They only have those interested in geldings looking to buy, if they keep it intact they increase their market and do not need to put money into the gelding fees. I have run into this more times than not and it drives me nuts.

Yes, there are few nice geldings out there on some sites, but I have to say that I looked at approx. 20 sites this morning in surrounding states, there was not one gelding listed for sale. (there are only two sites that are withing 10 hours that have geldings listed, there may be more, but as I said, while looking this morning, out of 20 sites there were colts, stallions, and mares, but no geldings for sale).

If someone is looking for a gelding, MANY of the responses are for intact stallions that people will have gelded for them.

Yes, when you geld, many times you need to hold onto that mini until it hits 2-3 years old and is mature enough to start ground driving, but there are many people that are getting into minis and want a gelding to start out with.

I just feel the registries need to stay the course and reward breeders of registered minis that choose to geld.

There is no reward to responsible breeders when unregistered stock is allowed into the registry, even if it is only as a gelding. I do not feel it will generate a ton of revenue, lets face it, an irresponsible breeder will only spend money on a sure thing. I feel it will only cause sour grapes for those that are responsible breeders of registered animals and choose to geld.

Okay, time to put my soap box away

Carolyn, I live in PA and I have two geldings on my sale page plus another I would consider selling. The two for sale are nice but I have not been able to sell either yet even though their prices are what i would consider reasonable and I would look at all offers to get them into a good home.

 

[Carolyn R]

Margot, you are one the few sites in the region I have noticed that has geldings. I know you only have one listed on your sales page, went back to look and realized there was another.

Honestly, when you look at the farms in NY, NJ, DE, MD, OH, PA, IN, and the New England region, the ratio of geldings VS intact colts,stallions, and mares it is depressing.

I don't mean to get off the OP's topic, I just think the registries should promote those within and focus on trying to push members, owners and breeders to geld and promote what already has or is elgible for papers.

I have not had issues selling those I geld, I may have to hold onto them awhile,which is fine with me, but they do sell, and not for pennies on the dollar either. They are extremely well handled and social, and get every bit as much hands on time as my other horses.

Typically, I see them sell when they are approaching the age that they can start doing hands on event classes and such.

 

[Charlotte]

When a sport horse breeder first looks at a horse he will be impressed by those qualities which he is trying to produce in his own breeding program. He will evaluate a stallion or mare’s potential for passing on certain characteristics; and every horse, including geldings, may provide information on the heritable qualities of the parents.

I found this statement very telling. It is the first paragraph on the page which Clickmini posted about. Sport Horse Conformation Thank you Clickmini. Very good reading.

Because I have always found the above to be true, I feel that our geldings need to be from documented registered parents and I feel that they promote the breeder. (look who was AMHA World Supreme Champion) I don't see cheap hardshipped geldings as being an advantage to our breed or our membership.

Charlotte

 

[LaVern]

Oh, Charlotte you said it so well.