Fraudulent Breeder

[LittleRedLady]

I went to what I thought was a reputable breeder online and inquired about a bred mare. The breeder redirected me to another mare she felt would be better. I loved the look of the mare. She was supposedly 10 months pregnant. When she stepped off the trailer I had my doubts if she was in foal. I had a vet out her to ultrasound her and she WAS NOT in foal. The breeder is pleading ignorance and saying she was sold to her with a breeding certificate. She would have been able to tell by looking at her she was not pregnant let alone ready to foal. She rushed me into shipping her immediately as she claimed she was ready to foal. I will not mention the name but the operation is out of Petersburg WV. We will MAKE SURE she never does this to another unsuspecting buyer again.

 

[Becky]

I'm really sorry that you aren't going to get a foal this year.

I will say, though, that buying a bred mare has some risk involved. I've certainly had mares vet checked in foal that turned up open later. It just happens. That could be very innocent on the sellers part.

 

[MiLo Minis]

I am sorry you won't have a foal from her this year and you feel like you were taken but like Becky says this could be entirely innocent on the seller's part. You can't always tell just by looking if a mare is pregnant or not. I have a mare here right now that has been ultrasounded in foal and truly is but out of all my mares she looks the least likely to foal and yet is due any day now. I also have 2 mares that I KNOW are not pregnant and they look like they are much farther along than she does. If the seller thought the mare was 10 months along then she was right in wanting to get her shipped quickly. You do have recourse if your contract states you were buying a bred mare confirmed in foal.

Past experience has taught me: My way of doing things is when I am shopping for a mare I buy ONLY the mare. IF she happens to be in foal or bred or exposed to a stallion that's fine but I am buying only the mare. I don't pay any more for a bred mare than I would for the same mare not bred. There are so many things that can go wrong and you end up with only the mare that if your expectations are for only the mare you don't end up disappointed in any way. On the rare occasions that I buy a mare that has been bred to THE stallion I make sure that my buying contract covers me in case anything goes wrong and I end up with only the mare.

 

[LittleRedLady]

I have to believe she could see this mare was not 10 months pregnant. She pushed shipping her immediately as she felt she could foal within a month. She has other bred mares there and can tell the difference. It was not innocence or ignorance. After I questioned her inf the mare was in foal she stated she did the wedding ring test on her to confirm she was. She also said no vet in the area had an ultrasound.

 

[minimomNC]

Is the breeder offering you any money back? Or a rebreeding? Anything to compensate for not knowing a mare that is ready to foal isn't even in foal? There is a huge difference in buying a mare that is a very few months in foal and coming up open and buying a mare at 10 months in foal and coming up open. At 10 months you should be able to see foal movement at the very least.

Now on the other side, even if a mare was suppose to be in foal, I would never buy a mare based on the foal she is carrying (or not in this case) You should only buy and be happy with the price for the mare herself. To me a foal is a bonus, not a guarantee. When I had my mares for sale, it was for what I thought they were worth, not what a possible foal would be worth as well. (Glad no one bought her either, her foal is the best we have ever had LOL)

I hope things work out for you, its always a risk when buying online. Maybe the breeder will make it right for you.

 

[LittleRedLady]

The mare is an absolute doll. I plan on keeping her and breeding her in the future. I asked for money back and she has offered some other options that are not acceptable such as taking 500 off her already overpriced foals. No thanks. Anyway I doubt she will do this again in the future. It aint over.

 

[Minimor]

Well, I can say that I've had a mare, definitely in foal, that up until her 10th month absolutely did not look like she was in foal. She foaled 1 month overdue, at a full 365 days.

Had another mare that looked in foal but wasn't supposed to be bred. Had the vet out to check her--he was a very experienced horse breeder himself. He took one look at that mare & said she's as pregnant as any of my bred mares are but I can check her if you want. We wanted, he palpated her & said nope, no baby in there--and there wasn't.

As I recall someone on this board just recently bought a bred mare at a sale--mare was listed in the catalogue as ultrasounded in foal--and that was a recent ultrasound, not from months ago, 60 days into the pregnancy-- buyer got her home & she was open.

Someone else on this forum posted photos of a mare asking is she or isn't she in foal? Replies were varied--not everyone agreed on the right answer. Had her vet out to check the mare & he palpated her as being open. Shortly after that the mare foaled.

Anyone experienced in breeding knows that you cannot always tell by looking. Foal movement is usually an indicator, but not always--I have had at least one mare that was in foal yet I never once felt any foal movement in her--and I tried lots of times to feel if there was anyone in there! I bought one mare that was supposed to be bred and on at least one occasion we saw what we thought was very obvious foal movement. She came into heat a few weeks later--whatever we saw moving wasn't a foal!! If people could always tell 100% for sure we wouldn't hear stories of people trying to get a show mare fit for showing and wondering why she would never get as trim as she should, and then taking her to a show & having her pop out a foal between classes or at the end of the show day!

Anyone selling a mare that they believe to be 10 months in foal is going to be in a rush to get her shipped--there is nothing unusual about that. Some breeders won't ship a mare that close to foaling but others will, just as some buyers aren't concerned, but others won't buy & ship a mare that close to foaling--they will not buy or else will arrange to have the seller foal the mare out. I personally get very nervous about shipping a mare in her last month of pregnancy and probably wouldn't do it.

I definitely agree with the others about buying a bred mare--buy the mare for herself & consider a foal to be a bonus--then there is no disappointment if there is no foal. There are just too many things that can happen. And, if the foal is the most important part, it pays to have a solid contract that sets out what will happen if there is no live foal...can the mare be returned for a refund? Or for a rebreeding? There can much less hassle and hard feelings if it's all set out in writing before the sale is completed.

I'm curious--how current were the photos that you bought her from? If they were current photos & she looked marvelous, did she also look pregnant? Or were they old photos & you didn't see any of her as she looks currently?

 

[LittleRedLady]

She had older photos and she was also wooly in her winter coat. She sent photos of the stud and all her previous foals. She is a wonderful little mare with a great disposition. Very friendly and loyal. This breeder did not breed her and blames the fact she is not in foal on the previous breeder. She directed me to speak to her if I had any questions. Its called passing the buck. I get it. I did not buy the horse from the previous owner even though I have spoke to her and the farm where she was born.

 

[dgrminis]

I am sorry that your mare turned out to be open...

But I wanted to say reading posts like this is why I NEVER sell a mare as "IN FOAL" or "BRED" - I rarely sell mares anyways but if I do they are only sold as "Exposed to stallion" because anything could happen. The closest vets that ultrasound around here are an hour away so we do not get our mares ultrasound. We just know when we bred them and we keep an eye on them and go from there...

I have one mare that is an older mare and each year she looks open and each year she gives me a lovely foal. Not even my vet can tell by "looking" at her that she is bred.... I never know until she starts bagging up.

Again sorry about the mare you got not being in foal... I know it is exciting to think you are getting a new mare and then shortly after a new foal and not have it work out that way....

 

[LittleRedLady]

Thanks and I appreciate your honesty. I bought a horse a few years ago that I absolutely loved. He was a 15.2 hand golden Palimino we called Trigger. I bought him from a local dealer here who probably purchased him at an auction. He had cancer and we had him for a year. I couldnt even ride him. We nursed him through the illness until we had to euthanize him. It was really sad. So at least she is healthy.

 

[targetsmom]

I am sorry that you are not getting the foal you expected, but I have learned on this forum that 1) never buy a mare for the foal she is carrying and 2) so many things can go wrong that it is never a good idea to count your chickens before they hatch and 3) that mares can foal while not looking pregnant.

I hope I am not in the same situation you are, because I also just bought a mare that is 10 months pregnant:

- I got current photos of the mare and a video before sending $$$

- I decided (on advice from forum members and vet) to leave the mare where she is to foal out

- There is a contract with LFG, which specifies what happens if there is no live foal

I have also bought bred mares (or sent the mare back for breeding after buying her open) with no live foals resulting. In neither case did I think the breeder did anything fraudulent (in one case it was my fault for not being there) and in both cases the breeders offered me farm credit. Yes, even when it was my fault!. In one case the mare was confirmed in foal by ultrasound and I suspect may have lost the foal during shipping back here. It sounds like you are being offered a $500 farm credit, which seems reasonable to me. And it sounds like you are happy with the mare.

 

[LittleRedLady]

Glad to see you frequent the site J.

 

[jsites]

I will try to defend myself of this slander. I directed Tammy toward the mare Candee because she wanted a mare that would be gentle with her son. She is the only mare that I would consider selling who I say is child safe. I did not buy this mare but received her on a trade aggreement. She was given to me as pasture bred with a stallion certificate. That is the way I sold her. She looked pregnant to me. I live in the middle of no were WV and I do not have a vet who will unltrasound a mini. I did have a vet to my farm in January to use one of those external preg test machines but it was not working and she will attest to that. So none of my mares have been checked.

When Tammy contacted me I offered her a free breeding to my stallion Cross Country Call Me Awsome and free mare care. A value of $1,500. I only sold the mare for $2,000. I also offered $500 off of one of my 2010 foals because she seems to want a foal. I take huge offence in calling my foals overpriced. I sold colts last year for $500!

When I shipped the mare she was only 9 months pregnant and the the furry photos were taking the week before....it was winter!!!!

 

[LittleRedLady]

How could you offer me a free breeding to your stallion if she was bred..? If your 3500 foals are average so be it. Im not paying 3000 for a foal with a 500 credit. It seems you ran into the wrong people this time. By the way I NEVER named the breeder. You did that YOURSELF. And btw you really need to stop selling mares for thousands that are not confirmed in foal.

 

[gimp]

I find this post a bit offensive, and I know neither party. I feel this should be taken up privately and resolved privately. If I were the breeder...and what exactly IS a fraudulent breeder??? (AND the seller was not the breeder in this case)...I would be hurt and ticked. If I were the buyer I would also be hurt, but all know that pregnancy, especially in horses, can be a tricky thing. This year alone there have been case after case of healthy foals mysteriously going down or being stillborn.

I think it is huge that the seller came on and gave their side of this story as we tend to only read one side and then jump on the bandwagon rallying against the evil party that did wrong by one of our own. She is standing pretty darn tall in my book.

I am sorry for all involved, but we should all take a lesson from this...

JMHO

 

[gimp]

I find this post a bit offensive, and I know neither party. I feel this should be taken up privately and resolved privately. If I were the breeder (and what exactly IS a fraudulent breeder??? AND the seller was not the breeder in this case) I would be hurt and ticked. If I were the buyer I would also be hurt, but all know that pregnancy, especially in horses, can be a tricky thing. This year alone there have been case after case of healthy foals mysteriously going down or being stillborn.

I think it is huge that the seller came on and gave their side of this story as we tend to only read one side and then jump on the bandwagon rallying against the evil party that did wrong by one of our own. She is standing pretty darn tall in my book.

I am sorry for all involved, but we should all take a lesson from this...keep it private!!

JMHO

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

Sounds to me like you need to get your panties out of a wad.. We all know that this is a risk you take when buying a "mare in foal", and there's risks that go with ANYTHING you buy, foals, stallions, open mares, bred mares etc.. I bought a mare 2 years ago, foal on her side, breeding sound, breeder offered a breed back to one of her stallions for a price, I declined as I wanted her bred to my stallion, brought her home and for the past two years have fought to get her in foal, TWO YEARS and still no baby out of her.. Breeders/sellers fault? Absolutely not, unless she lied to me about being breeding sound, am I p*$$ed/upset, yes as she cost me a good chunk of change, but I am not upset with the breeder/seller, was a risk I took and I knew that going into the purchase..

Sounds to me like Jennifer has tried to make it right.. Man, offering a free rebreed to Awesome!? I'd suck it up on not having a baby this year and take her up on the offer!

 

[gimp]

I find this post a bit offensive, and I know neither party. I feel this should be taken up privately and resolved privately. If I were the breeder (and what exactly IS a fraudulent breeder??? AND the seller was not the breeder in this case) I would be hurt and ticked. If I were the buyer I would also be hurt, but all know that pregnancy, especially in horses, can be a tricky thing. This year alone there have been case after case of healthy foals mysteriously going down or being stillborn.

I think it is huge that the seller came on and gave their side of this story as we tend to only read one side and then jump on the bandwagon rallying against the evil party that did wrong by one of our own. She is standing pretty darn tall in my book.

I am sorry for all involved, but we should all take a lesson from this...keep it private!!

JMHO