Frame (LWO) Gene- Lost a foal :(

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Triple 7 Farm

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I'm very heartbroken & bawling like a big ol' baby as I type this so please excuse if I have spelling errors- I'll come back later to fix them.

I just lost the DREAM FILLY OF MY LIFE.
She was a bald faced (1 blue, 1 brown) Frame Overo filly (belly splotches on both sides, etc). Mare had her, I JUST missed it. Filly was still in the sac from the withers down (sitting up). So I did the usual of attending after the foal. She was breathing heavier than I'd liked, but still attempted to get up quite a few times. Then she all out gave up. In the meantime, YES I called my vet on emergency (a couple times) as I didn't like her breathing & had to wait for him to call back. She then gave up totally & I tried recessitating her. The vet FINALLY called me back like 15-20 minutes later! She was gone at this point & all he could say is "I know it's hard, but sometimes foals aren't mentally there enough to breath on their own". I'm just so very heartbroken & angry right now! (I've lost 2 colts & now 2 fillies this year & she was my "grand finally" I was praying to GOD for. And I'm out with my minis practically 24/7 (so much my hubby thinks I care more about them then him)! They none foal outside, etc! I'm the typical over-protective mini mother since I don't have any children of my own. Yes I know things happen & "GOD" has a reason for everything. I just don't see WHY right NOW!)

So getting to my question: I bought my baby's dam pasture bred last year (I've been waiting for her to "pop" for the past 3 months! since then is when she 1st started bagging & looking close). Anyhow- the sire is a SOLID GRAY (Tibbs To Cool), I saw him in person so I know he's true. My mare is almost pure white, except for each of her flanks & a spot on her chest which runs down her underbelly (she's Sabino Black or a Blue Roan- has a Roan parent). She's not been LWO tested that I know of. She also has both blue eyes. So out of that cross I got a visual Frame Overo. (sorry I can't post pics of my mare or filly when she was alive- I never can get them to work. And I don't own the sire).

My question:

To get a visual Frame Overo, one parent has to have the LWO gene right?? Or if my mare is Splash, will that be enough??

Based on my description (or go to http://triple7farm.tripod.com to see her- she's the top mare on my mares page), do you think she's LWO or what is she carrying?? I've read up on it, but it's all a bit confusing. I know well enough not to cross 2 LWO+ minis.

(YES I plan to test her soon, like sending it off tomorrow if I know what all to test for besides LWO since I want to breed her back but am undecided (one option I planned to breed her to is my new Perlino Rowdy G-Grandson). I want a Frame Overo of my own that I don't have to buy from someone & I definately don't want another heartache next year, only with a LWO foal instead!).

Also, my Perlino is solid (per looking at him, his foal pics, their ad of him as a foal, etc). Nothing is mentioned of his parent (Rowdy decendant) carrying LWO. She's a solid buckskin. I know more than likely I should test him (my Perlino G-Grandson) for LWO too right?!? (I planned on it). I haven't contacted his breeders, which I've been meaning to talk to & probably should have 1st rather than post asking here, but thought I'd ask while on the topic.

Thanks for reading & listening.

Ashley F.
 

Meavey

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First of all, sorry for your loss.

Yes the dam could very easily be LWO positive, I would test het to make sure.

Also the sire is grey but grey is not a color but a modifier gene that turnes a horse white so he could easily have been born pinto of frame too, so if he´s all white already you wouldn´t be able to see anymore.

But for now I would guess it came from the dam.
 

Connie P

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Ashley,

I am so very sorry for your loss. That is truly heartbreaking.

To be safe you should test any and all horses that you might have any question whatsoever about being LWO. It is way better to be safe than sorry.

((HUGS))
 

Songcatcher

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As mentioned above, the mare can easily be an LWO carrier. When mixed with other patterns it can often be obscured. HOWEVER, it is also POSSIBLE for other pattern combinations to mimick Frame without being LWO. I have seen a FEW I would have sworn were Frame by looking at them but tested negative.

As for testing, as long as one horse of the pair has tested negative for LWO, you can breed without worry of a lethal white foal. If your mare tests positive, I would DEFINATELY test your Rowdy bred stallion before breeding. I test ALL of my stallions, regardless.

Hope you have much better results next year.
 

Triple 7 Farm

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Thank You all so much for your replies! I really do appreciate your comments.

The stallion she was bred to for this year was still very dark, not turning white yet (anywhere). He was/is a dark steely color back in September (we were interested in buying him so paid close attention to him). I forgot last night while typing that Gray is a modifying color. But he's solid for sure. I did look up him & his ped. when I first bought Dove, in case she were in foal, but I don't remember anything sticking out strongly for the pinto pattern. IF I remember correctly, both his sire/dam & back were solids (Sorry if I'm wrong, I just did a quick look back then). So, another reason I was VERY ancious to see this foal.

I will most deffinitly test her for LWO 1st. What's the best place to send it- Animal Genetics?

You can only send 1 sample off per envelope correct?? Not 2 seperated in plastic baggies, etc?? (I've done the standard AMHA DNA test, but that's always 1 mini at a time anyhow).

Do you think if I send it out today, along with my Rowdy stallions (which the breeder hasn't tested his parent since she's had all solid foals- didn't feel the need to-- so at least I know his dam's not been tested), that they'll have her results before she comes in her foal heat?

Again, THANK YOU all for your kind words & comments. I'm very greatful to still have my Dove (I know it's bad to have favorites) but she's is my favorite. I and the kids that come out can do anything with her, etc...

Thank You,

Ashley
 

faithfarm

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You can send 2 separate baggies in one envelope as long as you put the name of the horse inside the baggie; I've done it with Animal Genetics. If you include your email address, you should have results in 4 or 5 days.
 

Bluewater Minis

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I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your little angel filly. It is heartbreaking when you hope and dream for so long. Sad that foaling (and having horses in general) doesn't always turn out the way we'd like. Do test your mare for LWO and remember you can only do your best. Hopefully you will be more blessed next year.
 

Mona

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I am so very sorry for your loss. Yes, that mare can easily be carrying the frame gene, and I would suspect so.
 

Jill

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I am so sorry for your loss and how this season went for your foals. We lost a mare and foal at the start of the season and know how heart breaking it is, and how you feel attached to the babies instantly. So sorry
 

Triple 7 Farm

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Thank you all for your comments & support. I really need it. This is just really hard for me to deal with (Mama Dove is taking this better than I am). So yesterday I removed little Angel from Dove's stall (she whinnied once or twice, but then was fine).

Jill, I'm really sorry that you lost both your mare & foal.
I know I couldn't take that.
I don't know what I'd do if I would've lost Dove, or any of my other mares. Losing a foal I've only known for roughly 20 minutes is hard enough! Especially since I've loved her since I first found out mama Dove was actually pregnant....

I guess now I'm not going to think & hope to myself on the foals I want to keep (They were all the foals that died, except little Speedy whom was supposed to be a girl- but I'm thinking on keeping him either way- I want to show him so we'll see if I can do that). I know that's just supersticious of me- things happen & only God knows why the ones I specifically had intentions of keeping were born dead/died.

Again, THANK YOU all for your support. I did send out Dove's LWO test yesterday- Now I can't wait for the results! In a way I hope it was her & not the stallion (by chance since I haven't looked up his pedigree since last fall & can't remember it).
 

hairicane

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So very sorry for your loss. Its even worse when they are born alive and then u lose them
 

Joanne

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Hi Ashley,

I have a very simularily marked mare to yours and she is a tobiano and splashed white mare. But we did test her to verify she was not carrying LWO as several of our stallions are LWO.

Here is her photo:



I too had a foal that I faded on me after birthing. I was there from when the water broke on and assisted in the birth as I usually do. The birth seemed unremarkable to me. No malposition and not a long birth. Still while the cord was still attached he simply faded on me.

I started CPR and I was able to revive him. I do believe every breeder should know how to do CPR on their horses. I have NO idea if this would have saved YOUR foal or not. But it is always worth a try. They are dead. You cannot hurt them. In both cases we have successfully revived they had a heartbeat, just stopped breathing. After breathing for him for a short period he came to. Just as quickly as he had left, he was there.

We have a link on our website to an article on doing CPR on a horse. You might look it up and download it so you have it in the future. We keep ours in the barn so we can review it often and have it available.

Here is the link and I am so sorry for your loss. I do know how it feels first hand.

Articles
 

Miniv

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My heart goes out to you over the loss of your beautiful baby. It's always harder when they are born long enough to grab your heart.

Joanne wrote a very helpful post........for others in a similar situation.
 

Triple 7 Farm

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Joanne,

Thank You for the post & link (as well as everyone else whose posted). I'm sure it will be helpful. It's a nice way to review.

However, I did do CPR on her to no avail (I'm a certified Vet Assistant/Pharmacy Tech). By the time the vet called me back she was gone & I was trying to bring her back. She didn't come to even a little bit. So after a while of sitting & bawling on her & her mama after I knew all was lost (Yes I'm a BIG BABY!) I listened to my vets voice mail he left- I was in the barn fighting for my Angel & missed his call. He was very rude stating "I don't have the equipement, tube, breathing bag, etc. & she's a foal- it's no use as some foals aren't developed mentally to breath on their own outside their dams- so I will not be coming out- sorry about your lost foal- call me if things change." (this was before he even knew she was gone- this was with him knowing she was breathing heavy & pink/purple in color).

Not that it's anyones concern, but man, I need better vets in my area! And they're just 5-10 minutes from me! Here I am willing to pay for an emergency visit in the middle of the night (as they know I'm ALWAYS willing to pay an emergency fee for my animals) & he states it like that, WORD for WORD! Now I'm thinking of another vet as obviously HE doesn't need my business! So, yes, I'm a bit mad at the vets too... I keep thinking if he would have called me back in a reasonable amount of time & came out that PERHAPS things would have been different since he is only 5-10 minutes from me too. I may be a Vet Assistant/ Pharmacy Tech, but I DO NOT know all that a vet does (nor will I try to make people think I do). He could have seen first hand, not just assumed. Least then, perhaps I would feel a little better too. It just makes me think that he doesn't care. He's my vet & he should!
 

qtrrae

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Ashley,

I am so sorry that you lost your little dream filly - it is so sad to lose these precious babies.

Sometimes it is so hard to understand why these things happen, I so hope you find some answers, I know you will feel somewhat better when you get the LWO results back.

Lots of Hugs for you and Dove.
 

Joanne

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Ashley I am with you. We despirately need more large animals veterinarians, especially those that have some stall side manners!

I had a problem getting a foal out this year and called several veterinarians to try and get one to come and help me. One vet called me back and said "You have done far more foaling than I have. If you cannot foal it out, how do you think I can help you. I am sure you have done everything you know how."

I am sure I HAVE foaled out more foals than he has. But, like you, I thought he would be able to do SOMETHING. Maybe sedate the horse and help me get it out!

I was not aware you had tried CPR from your original post. Thank you for letting us know. Even with all we know and learn from year to year, life seems to always throw us a curve. Something new to learn and make us realize we do not know everything.

Again, I am right there with you and sorry for your loss.
 

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