Flipping Over! Please Help!

[Horse-back-always]

Ok.I have a three year old Quarter Pony (yes, I know, not a mini. I just reallyneed help) who i am in the process of training. She is perfect on the ground. Ican pick up all her feet and work on them with no problems, she can be trustedto walk behind, you can brush her all over, including her belly, and you canmess with her ears. You can put the saddle on her and sinch it up, and shetakes the bridle. No problems, you can get on her back, and she is fine, shewill prance a little bit, but that’s to be expected the first couple times youride a horse, but doesn’t seem bothered to much. Now if you try to turn her tothe left, she flips over, no exceptions, every time. It’s getting verydangerous. She has landed on top of me three times, and i have had to go to thehospital with a broken leg once. I don't know what is wrong. We hav had the vetcome out and check her, there is nothing wrong with her left side, does anyonehave any ideas of what i can try to make her stop, I don’t know what to do.

 

 

[Eagle]

Have you checked her teeth? Do you ride with a bit? maybe try a bitless and see if she does it before you call the dentist.

Good luck

 

[cassie]

I agree with Renee, my stockhorse was doing a similar thing, though not quite so dangerous and he is 20 yrs old and very well trained, it turned out he needed his teeth doing really badly dentist came out he has been great ever since, hoping that is all it is for your mare

hope she continues well with her training.

 

[Horse-back-always]

I am reading online now, and just heard something about "Wolf Teeth" and i guess that it hurts there mouth when they have a bit in. Thank you guys very much. I will keep blogging about how we progress, or if anything else happens, I will get the vet out immediatly. Thank you.

 

[Sue_C.]

Definitely have her teeth checked...and after that, whatever the outcome...stay off her back until your groundwork is done. by groundwork, I mean ground driving her...lots, everywhere, and in as many situations as possible. Bend her, turn her, put her in circles and serpentines...get her so that she accepts everything...teach her WHOA/STAND...THEN...and only then...should you attempt riding her.

 

[Marty]

She's three. She's young, not trained, and neither are you. Besides her teeth, it could be your hands and any number of other things you are both doing wrong. Get her to a trainer and riding lessons for you from the best professional you can find and I do not mean a good buddy or a cowboy: a real professional at a reputable training stable. Do not try to fix this on your own. Please stay off this horse until you do. This is not "getting dangerous" it already is beyond dangerous. Best wishes for future success. Good luck.

 

[Horse-back-always]

Sue_C... All of that has been done. She is absolutely amazing on the ground. That's why I was so confused about her flipping over. She seemed to do SOOOO well that I didn't think that I was going to have any trouble with her. She is very well mannered, will drive, ground tied... I can lunge her without a line, only using voice commands, she will walk, jog/trot, lope/canter, gallop, stop, and turn and go the other direction all on voice command, without a whip or line in sight. If i take her and put her in the front yard and drop the reigns on the ground and say "whoa, stand" I can go inside the house, get a drink, and come back out 20 minutes later, and she hasn't moved a muscle. It's insane to think a horse like that would flip over on me.

 

[bannerminis]

Definitely check her teeth but it could also be a muscular problem or a pinched nerve that could do it. Someone that is trained in somthing like Equine Touch or its equivalent might also be able to help you. I would also stay off her till you have found the problem.

 

[Horse-back-always]

Marty- I have training horses since I was 10 years old. I currently work for a training stable. I have trained horses that turn out to be gentle enough for therapeutic riding for disabled children. I have been training for years and i have trained dozens of horses. I'm not going to just give up and send her off though. I am EXTREMELY picky about the care, and training my horses recieve, therefore, i do it myself. I'm not saying for a second that I'm a perfect trainer, I'm just saying that I do have experience with training horses.

 

[Mareish Mom]

I agree with the theory that something is causing her pain. Wolf teeth, or pinched nerve in her neck are likely culprits. I'd have her teeth checked then have her checked by a vet who does equine chiropractic and accupuncture. Question: Have you done the bending exercises on the ground with the bit in her mouth, simulating the oral sensation she would experience when you are onboard? I would think that if it's her teeth she would react to the bit on the ground as well as with you in the saddle. If the bit isn't bothering her when doing ground work then I'd think it's more likely a pinched nerve in her neck or other back problem that is only a problem for her with weight onboard. Does NOT sound like a purely behavioral problem but a pain reaction. Though once your resolve the pain you should expect her to still be afraid that it "might" hurt and you'll need to go slow and do some gentle convincing that she's going to be alright. I bought an 8 year old horse that quickly showed me she was having mouth pain. Turns out she'd never had her wolf teeth pulled. Once I took care of that it took her quite awhile to believe the bit wasn't going to hurt her. Good luck, I'm sure you'll get it worked out.

 

[Mock2Farms]

Coming from big horse world, if it is NOT a pain issue... It sounds to me like she needs more ground work and foundation, as in long lining (etc..), before you even try to ride her again. If you feel you have been thorough with her groundwork then maybe this dangerous issues is beyond your experience. Flippers are NO fun and if its truely an issue of her being a little rank she wouldn't be here very long. That's one thing I won't put up with.

 

[Katiean]

My brother bought an Arab as a 2 year old (the horse not my brother). He got to the point that he was riding him out on trails. The horse was very level headed and a nice ride. However, when this horse decided he was done being ridden he would start tossing his head. Pop my brother in the face really good a few times. Then if they were anywhere near the manure pile from the stable (it was between the barns), good ol Posh would flip over on my brother in the manure pile. Teeth was not an issue on this horse. What my brother did was he included the use of a tie down. Once he found he could not pop Joe in the nose or flip over, the horse was an awesome endurance and barrel horse.

 

[AnnaC]

You have already received good advice here, but may I suggest an specialist dentist reather than your vet (unless of course they specialise in dentistry). Also get a qualified specialist to check her all over for any bone/muscle problems, particularly her neck and back. Then if all this checks out ok and enough time has elapsed for your recovery (hope you are all healed very soon!) look at the saddle. It may be pressing on her spine, with the weight of a rider, when she takes a left turn? Possibly try a 'treeless' saddle to see if that helps/takes away any 'pressure points'?

You are obviously experienced with young horses and their education/breaking, so I'm not going to say anything about checking your balance/weight distribution when riding, like I would to a novice. I know it is normal for horses to be broken/ridden late in the third year/early on as four year olds, but I once read a very thought provoking article about the bone development in young horses. It said that the plates on the ends of all the bones, slowly closed from the feet upwards and that the last to close were those of the spine - once the horse reached the age of six!! It was suggested that horses would last a lot longer in their 'working' lives if they were broken/ridden a lot later in their lives. Just wondering if your girl might be having some pain from closing plates somewhere among the long bones of her shoulder or hindlegs that might be giving her a temporary problem with her left turns?

Hope you find an answer soon for both of your sakes. Good luck!

Anna

 

[Marty]

So sorry I don't mean to come off like gangbusters. Let me rephrase: I do stand by she is three and they can get silly as heck at that age and attempt to revert back to yearling mentality, but understand you are still looking for something else. Understand you don't want to send her off somewhere but I think it would be a good thing to have a professional watch her and evaluate so you can rule out a behavioural problem. Lots of times no matter how confident I would want to be I would appreciate being watched by someone else to critique and hopefully see things I wasn't seeing myself. How about if you tack her up and lunge her under bridle and saddle as well? Maybe you can detect something else. If possible get a session on video to study. Very good calls on the pinched nerve and problem in the mouth also. Last but not least and grasping at straws, eyesight? Hope you find some answers.

 

[Minimor]

Some ground training things such as ‘ground tying’ have no relation at all to the horse’s behaviour under saddle. It doesn’t surprise me at all that your horse is so well trained in certain things that don’t involve a rider and yet she displays such dangerous behaviour with a rider up. Long lining and longe line or round pen work certainly can and do contribute to overall training that helps when it comes to under saddle work, but at the same time it is entirely possible to have a horse that behaves perfectly for any and all ground work and yet that horse is no good under saddle for whatever reason.

If your horse’s teeth are the problem I would expect her to display similar misbehaviour when you long line her, assuming you use the same bit for both ground work and riding—unless for some reason you are handling the reins very differently, making the bit work differently in her mouth. When you’re on her, do you use the rein the same as when you long line her, that is, a straight back pull on the left rein to ask her to turn left? Or when you are on her do you use an opening rein, bringing your hand out to the side to sort of pull her sideways? If her mouth is the reason for her misbehaviour under saddle, it stands to reason that her work in the round pen or on a longe line (assuming that you are not attaching the line to the bit) would be no problem—because there is no bit in her mouth, or if there is there isn't the pressure of your hands added in there).

If it were me I would have attempted to ride her without a bit before now—if she displays the same behaviour without a bit in her mouth then you know that her mouth is not the cause of her flipping over. If she behaves without a bit then the mouth is the obvious place to look first when trying to fix the problem. If she still doesn’t behave without a bit then one would have a pretty good idea that the problem is somewhere other than her mouth—likely pain somewhere in her back, shoulder, neck or body. You mention she flips over when asked to turn left. What does she do if asked to turn right instead?

How thorough was the vet exam when you had it done? I would have a chiropractor check her over. A chiropractor can often find problems that the average veterinarian would miss in a routine exam. In saying that I mean no slight to any veterinarian!

 

[Jean_B]

I am going to join the "get her teeth checked" group... and unless your vet has had the extensive full course that a certified equine dentist goes through....DO NOT LET THAT VET INTO YOUR HORSE'S MOUTH. A bad dental job is worse than none at all, and most vets get only a couple of hours of dental training unless they specialize, and then it is many weeks. A friend's daughter was almost killed by a runaway driving mini...after THREE veterinarians who called themselves "equine specialists" looked at his mouth and said he was fine. Then I took my equine dentist over there. And got physically ill looking at the damage inside the poor horse's mouth from hooks in the far back of his mouth tearing his cheeks to shreds.

 

[tagalong]

Then I took my equine dentist over there. And got physically ill looking at the damage inside the poor horse's mouth from hooks in the far back of his mouth tearing his cheeks to shreds.

Sadly, I had the opposite experience. A "reknowned" equine dentist was here - and was full of disdain for a lot of what I told him about specific horses. I have known them for years - he had just met them. They each had files that the vet dental specialist had kept on them and I did know what I was talking about but he thught that was very amusing. One mare I specifically told him always needed work as she was a packer amd developed nasty hooks very quickly - he barely lifted her lip and said she was fine. I was not impressed. I knew she was NOT fine. That mare had to go to the vet dental specialist after that - to fix the usual sharp edges and hooks. As did two others. So much for the super "equine dentist" everyone raved about. Never again.

If it were me I would have attempted to ride her without a bit before now—if she displays the same behaviour without a bit in her mouth then you know that her mouth is not the cause of her flipping over. If she behaves without a bit then the mouth is the obvious place to look first when trying to fix the problem. If she still doesn’t behave without a bit then one would have a pretty good idea that the problem is somewhere other than her mouth—likely pain somewhere in her back, shoulder, neck or body. You mention she flips over when asked to turn left. What does she do if asked to turn right instead?

Minimor raised some good points there ^ . I would also ask what you do with your hands when she starts to come up - pull back as a reflex? The flipping may not all be the horse's fault - and if she keeps doing it she is "learning" a very bad behaviour.

I think it would be a good thing to have a professional watch her and evaluate so you can rule out a behavioural problem. Lots of times no matter how confident I would want to be I would appreciate being watched by someone else to critique and hopefully see things I wasn't seeing myself.

Marty is right. You need another set of eyes here. You say you have been training horses since you were 10 - how old are you now? I know that you know that being a good trainer is not measured by years but by results. I know a guy who has "trained" horses for 30 years - and I would not send him a horse if he paid me to do it.

BTW, horses that are used for therapeutic riding usually have many years of miles and training behind them. It is rare to find a young one that can handle that kind of work right off the bat. They do exist - but are few and far between. Our program is lucky enough to have 2 of them - but older, more experienced schoolmaster types are preferred.

Sometimes personalities just clash and you and this horse may be one of those cases if nothing physical appears to be the cause...

 

[HGFarm]

I have to agree with having ALL her teeth checked, not just looking for wolf teeth. What kind of bit is being used? Is it mild enough and is it a non pinch kind of bit? I agree, this horse needs more ground work & driving or something before getting on her. She needs to learn some control first- that's like getting into a car with no steering wheel or brakes.

 

[Georgia]

May I ask this horse's breeding? If this horse has Impressive in it bloodlines the problem may be inherited. The impressive line are known flippers. Not all do this, but alot of them do and they pass it on. I personally have know 3. One was a broodmare that every foal she had did this. When they halter broke them we could tell who the mother was just by watching, 3 steps and flip. Hope this is just a tooth problem as rearing and flipping are very dangerous.

 

[wildoak]

Interesting about the Impressives being flippers... it's a bloodline I stayed away from for other reasons, did not know that. Good friend years back sent a rearing mare to a trainer, mare flipped, hit her head and died within a week. It is so dangerous, but often I think does have a physical/pain connection.

Jan