Filly still in sack

[Bramblehill]

I've been feeling so guilty all week. Last Saturday was the first day in a month that I didn't get up at least three times in the night to check my mare, which was due May 23rd. She had bagged up, but being new to foaling, and this was a new mare to me, I just thought it might be a while yet, and I needed a good night's sleep for once.

Of course, this was the one day I should have kept an all night vigil. Went out to feed in the morning to find a perfect, beautiful bay pinto filly that didn't come out of the sack. I know that many of you have faced the same devastation and am wondering, is this a common thing for a normal foal with minis??

Well wishers have tried to assure me that there must have been something wrong for her to not come out or the mare to help her. (They don't have minis) It didn't seem like a thick bag to me-took little effort for me to open it, but like I said, this is only my second birth, so what do I know??

So my question is- is it common for this to happen? I'm seriously considering selling my other bred mare and not breeding any more. Thanks for your replies in advance!

 

[Jill]

I am so sorry! Like Karla, I have only had two foals born and one of those also needed help getting out. I think it is very common in minis and to this day, I do not think the lady who owns the stable where the one filly who needed help believes me that if I weren't there, she could not have broken the sack. That lady has had many full size foals born but she's been lucky so far and all her mini foals did get out of the sack. The sacks, for reasons I do not know, can be so tough on these minis. Also, as Karla said, it has happened to many people here. I am so sorry for your loss.

 

[kaykay]

most ppl think the reason they cant get out is this. A mini foal sac is as thick as a normal big horse. But as we know mini foals are not nearly as big as a big foal so if the front hoof doesnt break thru they really struggle to get out. Im so sorry for your loss. I really think a camera for foaling is a must

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I am very sorry for your loss -

 

[CountryHaven]

I'm so sorry. I know the very first year I did this telling the signs of impending birth were really scary, because they can 'sort of' act like it for weeks before the real thing hits. And as you know from reading the forum here, sometimes they don't even give signs at all. Mare stare has got to be about the hardest thing to do with horses because it involves such long long hours, sleepless nights for weeks on end.

Please don't beat yourself up too much. It has happened to just about everybody. Yes, even a normal delivery with minis can have a sack that is hard to break for the foals. This year we have had three births so far, and two were completely 'normal' with bags that were filmy and flimsy that I'm sure had we not even been there, the foals would have been fine. In fact the first one did beat us into the world before we had gotten to the barn and was half out of the sack as it was coming out of the mare. However, one of the foals, still a completely normal birth had a bag so strong it wouldn't have made it out, I'm sure, had we not been right there.

I think that this is one of the hardest things for 'big' horse people coming to minis (and non-horse people too) to understand. Although even large breeds really should be observed and attended at birth considering the 'un-natural' situations they are living in, the occurances of babies dying in the sack are pretty unheard of in other breeds. Minis truly NEED attention during foaling. The odds are much heavier against them having no complications whatsoever.

 

[Bramblehill]

Thanks, everyone.

I did have a camera on and had her on Dom Peridone, even though she had been fed Coastal Burmuda hay on a dry lot for 4 months. I guess sometimes things just happen....

 

[Jill]

Yes, it happens :no: Again, I'm so sorry. I think a lot of people new to minis think that tough sacks only are a concern if there's been fescue hay or grass, but in minis, it unfortunately happens at times when there's been no fescue whatsoever.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I'm so sorry you had to face this, it must be heartbreaking.

The explanation I had heard here on this forum a year or so ago is that yes, the placenta is as thick to begin with as a big horse's. The problem is that in the last few months when a large horse foal grows and stretches the sack out to be thin and flimsy, mini foals stay small and so do not stretch the sack. I'm sure on some mares and some pregnancies nature is smart enough to thin the sack with hormones or simply have down-scaled the whole process correctly, but in many unfortunate cases this doesn't happen and the sack remains too thick for the foal to break out of. This seems to be a common occurence with the little ones.

I'm sorry for your loss. :no: If it's any comfort, it probably wasn't so much that it was destined to happen on this one night you happened to sleep in as that the mare took the peace and quiet as an excuse to foal. They really aren't fond of having us peeking in at them and I can't say I blame them!

: It wasn't your fault for being human and needing a break.

Leia

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Im so sorry for your loss. I had that happen once about 4 years ago only I fell asleep in front of the monitor! Minis are very small fragile foals for the most part and if they are weakened at all by a prolonged labor, premature separation of the placenta etc, they arent strong enough usually to break that sack by themselves. You will find that the majority of foal losses on this board were due to not getting out of the sack. There have been lots of distocias this year for some reason but in general, not getting out of the sack is the primary cause of foal deaths.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Joyce]

I'm so sorry you experienced this. Yes, it is very common for a mini baby not to get out of the sack. That's why it's so very important to be there for your mare when she foals. Some mini babies are just not strong enough to break that think sack. My Vet says mini sacks are lot stronger than big horse sacks. Again I feel so badly for you.

Joyce L

 

[littlearab]

So sorry about you foal. :no: Do not beat your self up, i lost one this spring too, it is heart breaking.

I was told by my old vet that it's not that the bag is stronger or tuffer.But that the sack is the same as a full size horse just like thier skin is a thick ect. We have bred them down in size but they are still horses.

He told me it is the wieght of the foal pushing on the sack as it is born that breaks it. Being miniature foals are so much smaller then full size foal there is not eough weight to break the sack sometimes. So the foal does not get out.

 

[Getitia]

I am so sorry about the loss of your filly - It is the most horrible feeling when it happens.

In our experience miniatures being born in the sack is very common.

Our pastures are all orchard/blue grass - planted new from fields that had crops on them previous - so no fescue - nor fescue in the hay. Fescue causes a host of a whole new set of issues.

This year, we have 2 foals that have been born in the sack - by the time the breeder alert went off and we woke up, looked at the monitor - put on our shoes and walked about 30 feet to the barn (think 4 minutes - tops) both foals were already born and wiggling in the sack - Fortunately, we were able to save both - just barely - they were gasping by the time we removed the sacks - The sacks "WERE NOT" thick nor tough - what tends to happen is that some mares just so easily give birth that there is no pressure from the foals hooves to break the sack open - Both of these foals were small - So very little resistance occurs as they pass through the birth canal - Like a couple of contractions and you have the foal totally in the sack.

Think of it as putting your hand in a plastic baggie and then using your fingers to push through the plastic to bust open the bag - this is the best concept to how a foals hooves work to burst the sack. No resistance - the sack does not rupture.

Thus, many times when the foals are "born" in the sack (I've seen this happen on our monitors each and every year) and I yell out to my helper or husband - foal is in the sack and we run out quickly to the stall. Often the mare jumps up by the time we get to the stall - If the mare stands up quickly, she thus removes the sack off of the foal and that saves many foals that are born in the sack. Otherwise - there is no way that the mare is going to remove the sack while she is laying down (they are not like dogs or cats and lick off the sack when she is laying down pushing) - as by the time she will raise up her head up to look around - the foal is born - and has already drowned - it is too late.......... You only have a few minutes. So even checking on the mare 3 or 4 times a night will only be helpful if you just happen to be lucky enough to be right there when she goes into labor.

From the time the foal is born in the sack - our experience has been that you have about 4 to 5 minutes tops to get the foal out - I hope the above information is helpful........

This year out of 14 foals born thus far - two have been born in the sack - two have been red bag births, 4 have been such a tight delivery that the mares never would have delivered without the extensive assistance that was provided. So that is more than 1/2 of our foals that would have died had we not had 24/7 assistance - we also had 2 mares foal in which we missed their births due to cutting off the alert system and falling asleep - so - we were just very lucky that neither of these 2 had problems.

So don't be so hard on yourself - even with cameras', breeder alerts, 24/7 coverage - you can loose one - as it happens so very quickly........... and I truly understand the pain of your loss.

 

[kaykay]

im sorry as i didnt mean to imply that you had to have a camera. I just thought from reading your post that you didnt have one. As Getitia said even with all gadgets, foals are still lost

Sometimes i type too fast and it comes out sounding cold when that is not at all how i meant it! Again im very sorry you lost your foal

 

[Mona]

I am so sorry for your loss.

 

[KrisP]

I'm so sorry for your loss, don't beat yourself up over it, it happens to all of us at some time or another.

Over the years I've lost two in the sack, the first a pretty little black colt with 4 high whites, the second a little red roan colt. On the red roan the mare was at 300 days but showing a lot of signs of foaling, I put her out at noon for an hour, came back out and she'd snuck into the barn aisle and foaled, poor girl, she was trying to get the colt up but he was gone, she was a maiden.

The colt I had born just two nights ago could have easily been lost, mare was only at day 292, had her right out in front of the house, checked her around 12:30 (AM) she was grazing away, went back out around 12:50 and there stood a colt trying to nurse :new_shocked: I thanked my lucky stars on that one, it could have all to easily been a tragedy.

Yes, foaling is long and grueling, every single year I ask myself why in the world I do this, then the first baby arrives and I remember why.

I've just started foal watch and already I'm meaner than a snake, just ask hubby (If you can find him!)

krisp

 

[capall beag]

I am soooooo sorry for your loss!!

That was my worst fear, with 3 maidens due I was sick with worry.

I was awfully fortunate that 2 of my sweet mares seemed to wait for me to be around to go into labor, 1 foaled at 1pm the other at 6.20pm. The third foaled at 2.30am and honestly my body was so exhausted from lack of sleep that I often fell asleep watching the monitor and awoke 2 hours later in a panic. I Thank God I woke and noticed my mare pacing, 2 of my foals were born in the sack and I cannot imagine they would have gotten out, I had to tear with 2 hands to open them, the third broke it himself......

None of this helps you any but you did your best and it is just one of those horrible things that can go wrong with foaling.....

Try not to feel guilt you did your very best.