Ever heard of a miniature Gypsy?

[heartofwisdom]

I love the Gypsy horses. I have minatures but I'm thinking of getting a Gypsy Cobb to ride.

Anyone know of anyone trying to breed a miniature with a gypsy? Is this possible? moral? Forgive my ignorance. I know zilch about breeding. Don't jump on me if this is no ethical--I'm asking--what if a black and white miniature pinto was impregnated with Gypsy sperm. Would it be dangerous? Would the Gypsy breed characteristic be passed on in a miniature?

Isn't this how miniatures started--breeding a small horse and big horse?

Thanks,

Robin

 

[Warpony]

I believe one of the registries has a section for miniature gypsy horses but their meaning is a lot different from what we mean when we say miniature. It is possible to get quite small gypsy horses (I've seen a couple of full grown 12hh gypsy horses listed for sale).

I'd also be tickled pink to find a true miniature sized horse with the feathering and draft build of a gypsy, but with so many horses in rescue right now I personally would not be able to justify a breeding program designed to create that.

edit to add: under no circumstances would I impregnate a MINI mare with a GYPSY horse... I've seen too many small mares have trouble carrying foals to much larger stallions to ever risk it.

 

[Songcatcher]

IF I were considering such a cross, I would definately use a Mini stallion on a Gypsy Mare.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Just buy yourself an original Shetland- ANY original Shetland!!!! At the moment they are bred to by a little more "clean legged" but they could easily be encouraged to return to their hairy origins.

No, Miniatures were not bred by breeding big horses to little they were bred form Shetlands, Hackneys, maybe Welsh (as there is Welsh in American Shetlands) Spotted Ponies and Falabellas.

This is one by Rabbit- as you can see his legs are "cleaner" than a gypsy cob but I can assure you it would not be hard to breed it back- I am uncertain how much careful trimming ot thinning goes on, anyway!!

 

[anita]

I heard someone moved from CA in my area, North East Texas who breeds small Gypsys.

Quitman/Emory area, someone know?

Anita

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Yes it is very doable and in fact the resulting foal could be registered with the NSPR if one parent was a reg shetland or mini.

I personally don't see anything ethically wrong with doing such a cross

 

[Warpony]

hypothetically, if I were going to do this (which i wouldn;t because of the whole "unwanted horses in rescue already" thing which keeps me from doing ANY breeding at all) here is what I would do:

I would purchase several Gypsy mares, the smallest, stockiest, hairiest ones I could find. Ideally I would want about 10 of them, but regardless I would want more then just one. I would then find the smallest, stockiest, hairiest Shetland stud, two of them if I had enough mares. My original emphasis would be on height and hair (and of course soundness. Minor conformation flaws that don't effect soundness could be weighed against the quality of size and hair).

I would do the crosses and see which combinations produced the smallest size and best hair, repeat these crosses, and try other crosses for the ones that didn't produce as well. I would place any resulting foals that were not hairy or small enough in pet homes and keep back all the good ones for future breeding. I would continue doing this until I had a significant amount of breeding stock from the resulting original crosses.

I would then chose the best of these (I'm intentionally trying to keep at least two unrelated gene pools going here, which is why I would want at least 10 mares and 2 studs) to cross. Again I would cull the herd of all but the smallest and hairiest. From this stock I would take a look at what I had and see what I needed more, to add in the hair, or to add in the size. I would then choose a new stallion/mares to put into my breeding program depending on what I needed. If I had my size but was losing hair I'd add in a small Gypsy. If I had my hair but needed size I would add in a very small hairy shetland.

And so on and so on. I'd hope that other people were doing the same thing to keep a varied gene pool available in the future.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Since we already have them here would it not be a lot easier just to import some????

 

[quaters]

I heard someone moved from CA in my area, North East Texas who breeds small Gypsys.

Quitman/Emory area, someone know?

Anita

Magnoila Ranch is the only place that I can think of at the moment, that has Vanners in Texas.

Magnoila Ranch

I'm not sure but I think I remember hearing something about one around Brookshire. I know there are people there who raise Fresians. As soon as I can think of their name I'll look them up and see if they know anything.

 

[Warpony]

Since we already have them here would it not be a lot easier just to import some????

most definitely! if one could find something as small and feathered as desired by importing that would be the way to do it... but i've not seen shetlands as heavily feathered as i would want, nor have i seen gypsy horses small enough for me to consider them a true miniature. if i could find what i wanted by importing i'd go that route without a doubt, and jump for joy in the process.

:

With as hard as it can be to find a really small Gypsy or a really small, stocky, hairy shetland here in the states I'd likely be importing anyway.

Of course this all hypothetical anyway.

:

 

[Lewella]

One thing to consider when it comes to the draft hair/feathering - it appears that the feathering is very probably a recessive trait. The working theory is that this is why draft crosses tend to not have the feathering that their draft parent had.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

I would purchase several Gypsy mares, the smallest, stockiest, hairiest ones I could find. Ideally I would want about 10 of them, but regardless I would want more then just one.

You do realize that good quality imported Gypsy mares run approximately $20,000, right?

The biggest importer and breeder of Gypsy horses is very close to me; in fact I spent the entire weekend there helping with their open house. The weanling fillies were selling (not just priced; selling) for $11500. Mares ran from $10k for the lower quality up to $30k for the higher quality. And when you are discussing quality in Gypsies, feathering is a big part of that (since they are imported, overall quality is quite high since they only take the best).

http://www.gypsyhorses.com and http://www.blackforestshires.com

 

[Warpony]

I would purchase several Gypsy mares, the smallest, stockiest, hairiest ones I could find. Ideally I would want about 10 of them, but regardless I would want more then just one.

You do realize that good quality imported Gypsy mares run approximately $20,000, right?

The biggest importer and breeder of Gypsy horses is very close to me; in fact I spent the entire weekend there helping with their open house. The weanling fillies were selling (not just priced; selling) for $11500. Mares ran from $10k for the lower quality up to $30k for the higher quality. And when you are discussing quality in Gypsies, feathering is a big part of that (since they are imported, overall quality is quite high since they only take the best).

http://www.gypsyhorses.com and http://www.blackforestshires.com

Oh trust me, I do know what they cost, I've been a big fan of gypsy horses for a very long time. Actually, if I hadn't just got back from a trip to Florida I'd have been AT BFSGH's open house. I was invited to go by a very nice lady who lives not to far from me and wanted someone to ride along (you probably met her, along with a huge group of other ladies I chat with regularly who were there with cameras and checkbooks in hand). I don't suppose you were involved in the repro clinic these ladies said they were having, were you?

Actually, the quality of mares i would want would easily be in the $20,000 range......... which is just one more reason why my discussion of what i would do was stressed as being hypothetical, hehe. But that applies to all breeding. No way in a million years would ever be able to afford the quality of animal I would have to have before i could justify breeding, regardless of breed.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

They (we) did a repro demo, but it wasn't very clinicy. I didn't do much, just stood along side and answered questions

For the demo itself I just washed the horses, lol. The staff ran the rest, and their vet did the actual collections. I was just there as extra help; one of my good friends works for them and through her they invited me down to help. It was very akward... its hard to try to sell a horse knowing nothing about its history, name, price, etc.

I just held them and found people the help they needed when they had specific questions, lol. But regardless, it was fun, and definately fun to see the hundreds of spotted ponies

Someday I WILL have a drum horse... someday....

 

[irishmini]

this is a bit off subject.....but i went to an irish cob show in august..it was run along side the minis..........all the cobs were wonderful piebald hairy legged...and absolutely fab...to see a miniature that looked like that would be fabulous........

you can get some lovely geldings here for aroun d3000euros +.i know they cant breed..but just to own and ride one would be as good!!!!!!!!!!

infact a friend of mine is selling a beauty called ace..as we speak...although he is a bit more expensive..........

anyway..interesting topic...

 

[willowoodstables]

First...

I have a gypsy and think he is the perfect size at 14.1. I wouldn't want a mini version (which they do have if they are 13.2 and under)

Second..they DO NOT cost that ridiculous amount of money to import. Search for a reputable person (ask rabbitfizz to help you) and then get your horse on a charter. My horse was SOOOO cheap to get here (yes he's a gelding BUT he rides and drives and is bomb proof which bring good $$ in North America). I wondered what was wrong with him as he was soo cheap. PM me and I can give you the info you need.

Kim

PS here is the resident Canadian Vanner Diarmuid...

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have never been able to understand the inflated prices asked and given- another load of hype if you ask me- look back on the prices asked for the dwarfs in the early days of minis.

It does not cost that much to export/import and the quality is just as good.

Go straight to source and avoid the hype and inflation is my advice every time.

As to breeding a miniature version??

Why, would be my question- I have spent half a life time breeding away from that sort of pony and, as I have said and demonstrated, they can be bought in most markets anyway!!

You can get some nice little 12.2hh- 13.2hh versions and they are great fun- but they already exist, there is no need to attempt to manufacture them.

 

[Warpony]

First...

I have a gypsy and think he is the perfect size at 14.1. I wouldn't want a mini version (which they do have if they are 13.2 and under)

Second..they DO NOT cost that ridiculous amount of money to import. Search for a reputable person (ask rabbitfizz to help you) and then get your horse on a charter. My horse was SOOOO cheap to get here (yes he's a gelding BUT he rides and drives and is bomb proof which bring good $$ in North America). I wondered what was wrong with him as he was soo cheap. PM me and I can give you the info you need.

Kim

PS here is the resident Canadian Vanner Diarmuid...

He is gorgeous. When I eventually get one (long ways down the road) I will likely do like you did. In my research i have seen some gorgeous well trained ride and drive geldings that could be bought for basically the cost of import. I personally would never pay the prices they are asking for a lot of these horses, though I have seen a lot of colts going cheap that I would consider. Well, that isn;t entirely true.... if I won the lottery I might do it anyway..... eh who am I kidding, I'm too cheap to spend any more then I absolutely have to.

I don't have a problem with people asking for or paying these prices though. Supply and demand, if someone is willing to pay that much then let them. I certainly can't blame the big importers for trying (and succeeding) to turn as big a profit as they can. At the current market prices here in the U.S. though, I could pay off my mortgage for what some places would charge for a single mare. Wowsers.

I have never been able to understand the inflated prices asked and given- another load of hype if you ask me- look back on the prices asked for the dwarfs in the early days of minis.

It does not cost that much to export/import and the quality is just as good.

Go straight to source and avoid the hype and inflation is my advice every time.

As to breeding a miniature version??

Why, would be my question- I have spent half a life time breeding away from that sort of pony and, as I have said and demonstrated, they can be bought in most markets anyway!!

You can get some nice little 12.2hh- 13.2hh versions and they are great fun- but they already exist, there is no need to attempt to manufacture them.

Well, truthfully, I do agree with you, especially about the hype... I have a friend who keeps sending me angry emails asking if he can send these *dirty word* horses that keep trashing his yard to me since I like the *dirty word* things so much. I keep telling him just to ship them here to the U.S. and he could pay off his house in no time. I believe the words he used were "nuisance" and "pests". Granted most of the ones he is complaining about running loose have questionable conformation, but still... they would sell for a lot over here. Everyone I know who lives over there just rolls their eyes over the hype for these horses.

though what I was talking about earlier is something much smaller then 12.2. More like 9hh or less. As for why... well, a lot of people I have talked to seem to want them. *shrug*

 

[Shari]

As Jane and Kim said.. go to the source and you can pick up a good "gypsy" horse for very little money.

Even with Shipping from the UK...it will be a whole lot cheaper than buying one in the US.

For breeding down to a mini Gypsy style horse. Why? There are native Shetlands in the UK... that look very much like the Gyspy type all ready. Easy to buy, not a lot of money.

Heck...there are a lot of small gypsy like ponies over there.

For feathering..as was said before. It is recessive and crosses rarely have the same amount as the parent.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

If you can import them cheaper, GO FOR IT!! Its expensive to bring them here. If you think you can get them cheaper you could make a killing with it. The amount of profit made is reasonable, but NOT excessive, very surprisingly.