Dystocia

[Cindy]

Hello all and A Happy New Year....

For those of you breeding and foaling, I'm interested in any differences that you've experienced in foaling out Miniature horses and how that might vary from Shetlands or Shetland/Mini crosses.

Do you see any less dystocia as the mares size change from 34" to 38"?

I realize that each delivery is different and that ANY mare can get into major problems, but I am interested in this topic in general.

Thanks and I'll be looking forward to your experiences.

Cindy

 

[Becky]

I don't think there are any less dystocias, but what you do have is more room to work in to try to manipulate the foal, if there is a problem in a larger mare.

I had a full size Arabian mare one time who had a dystocia and required a C section. A full size mare and there still wasn't enough room to reposition the foal. Unfortunately, dystocias can happen in any size horse and they are emergencys when they do!

I've had my share of them here in mares ranging from 30" - 34" and with fast and knowledgeable veterinary intervention, the mares have come through just fine and remained breeding sound.

 

[lyn_j]

My personal experience and that of Dr Taylor of Michigan pony farm, Far fewer neonatal or prenatal losses in the Shetlands. Although my worst distocia/breech was from my now departed mare Sillouoette who was 36 inches. Her uterus ruptured from all the pulling to get the filly out. Dr Taylor has 30-60 foals per year and rarely loses one. My shetland mares have foaled easily without incident.

Lyn

 

[disneyhorse]

You have to remember ... dystocias occur on all sizes of horse.

My friend lost her 18 hand Percheron mare last year to dystocia... she was only bred to a 16 hand Andalusian stallion and the foal was not big.

I do think that there are MORE dystocias with smaller minis as they just aren't built to have room in there... and then the problem is compounded by the fact that it is harder to reach in there to pull the foal around (if you are even present!)

Andrea

 

[hhpminis]

It seems there are more dystocias with smaller minis but I think like the rest have said, there are dystocias in all mares we just hear about the minis more.

I know many large horse breeders and they are not near as intent on intervention as we are with the minis. They let nature take its course.

My brother in law has arabs and they use to give me a bad time about how attentive I was to the mares. Then they had a mare that prolapsed on them, lost the mare and had an orphan foal. Got up in the morning found the foal, went to work and came home to find them mare in pasture with her uterus hanging out of her rectum. They now borrow a camera when they have a mare ready to foal.

We hear about the bad dystocias in big mares that they foal cant get out but what about the difficult births that the foal does make it ot but it was very hard for the mare. You just get up in the morning and there is a foal so they assume all went well. Never mind the poor mare that is swollen and torn.

Ok sorry, that turned into a soapbox. I will go have some chocolate now.

 

[Lewella]

Draft horses have a strong tendancy toward breech births with some data suggesting that up to 10% of draft births are dystocia (compared to 4% in Thoroughbreds).

As Lyn said, dystocia's in Shetland mares are rare. Shetlands also rarely get stuck in the sack and the vast majority of Shetland mares in the US are foaled on pasture.

 

[chandab]

You just get up in the morning and there is a foal so they assume all went well. Never mind the poor mare that is swollen and torn.

Been there, done that... When my AQHA mare had her first foal, she went almost a full year with her pregnancy. She had the foal just fine and even cleaned, but she wasn't acting right, so I called the vet (emergency call on Easter Sunday :new_shocked: ). The filly had bruised the mare severely and even tore her a little bit. The vet gave the mare a massive dose of pain killers and I believe antibiotics (this was 9 years ago, so I"m a little fuzzy on the details). The mare acted like she was in a coma all day, just kind of walked around in a daze, she let her filly nurse, but didn't really care for her. The mare was so uncomfortable that she laid down alot, the filly nursed her even while she was laying down (the mare moved her top leg enough so her udder was exposed). The vets instructions were to watch her through the night and call him if she wasn't better by morning (so we stayed in the bronco, the end of March in CO and checked her every hour). Early checks, she still acted like she was in a coma, didn't really notice us or her baby. By about 3 or 4 AM she was talking to her baby and noticed us when we came in the stall, even made attempts to get between us and her baby. [All healed fine and she had a healthy baby boy 5 years later, next time I decided I would breed her.]

 

[JWC sr.]

When we were dealing with big breeds it occasionally happened and now that we are just dealing with mini's it still does on the about the same rate as before. We foal anywhere from 25 - 50 babies a year so that is just our experience with them though. It would be interesting to get a incident rate on a larger group along with other problems that might occur in a normal year. To be able to better help understand what all of us are dealing with and to prevent as many deaths as possible. Cindy is one of the best I have seen with foaling problems and really can get in there and work with the mares. Her hands are smaller and she is very strong for her size, so that helps alot when there is a problem.

:saludando:

 

[kaykay]

i can only speak from my own experience but i have never had trouble with my larger mares only the small ones. I sold bitsy this year as i just couldnt take trying to breed anymore small mares. I also sold another small mare 2 years ago that went on to foal fine for her new owner. Im just more comfortable with the bigger girls foaling.

 

[Charlotte]

It sounds like everybody has different experiences. We have had our worst problems with mares 33-34". We had one 32" who we removed from breeding (gave her to Grandaughter Hailey) because of recurring distocias.

Our 29" and 30" mares have never had a problem.

Go figure.

We have always attended all foalings....from Frank's quarter mares and my Arabs to ponys and now minis. I figure it's my fault they got in foal so it's my job to see them safely through it.

Charlotte

 

[JWC sr.]

It is interesting that you mention the size of the mares, two mares we had to have help with in the past from the vet. one was a 29" mare and the other was a 33 1/2" mare in the same year. The Vet was asked both times after he had been up inside on both of them what he felt about breeding them again. The little mare he said had more room in the uterus than the big mare and since then the small mare has had two babies with no problem and the big mare has also had two, but had minor problems with one of them. So I think it really is an individual thing with mares.

Another problem we have had with two mares in particular was that both even though they went full term and had the babies naturally with no problems, they did not drop their milk. In both mares a minor injection of oxytosin caused them to both drop the milk and sucessfully raise the 5 babies respectivley. But the one we lost, we were out of town and failed to tell the person on mare watch to give the shot and the baby was too weak by the time we got back the following day and we lost it. It is really critical to get some milk into these babies as quick as you can.

:saludando:

,

 

[Miniv]

John is right.......you can have a tall or a short mare who has a narrow pelvis....in those circumstances, height doesn't matter when it comes to foaling out.

Size does matter with carrying and with correcting a distocia. And more often than not, a slightly taller mare also has a wider pelvis, which means an easier birth. It's just not a given, though.

IMO, if you want to breed smaller mares, it's wise to evaluate the size of their pelvic/hip area, plus the length of their body.

MA

 

[Cindy]

Thank you all for your comments ....you have each been helpful in this discussion. It is always interesting to hear from other breeders about their experiences and opinions.

We breed very few mares and have always felt a huge responsibility to be present at every birth so we send them out for foaling where they can be monitored 24/7. Once we take on that bred mare, it's just how we're comfortable dealing with it. And we've had 29" mares foal with no problems and lots of problems as well as the same with 33-34" mares.

I wondered about the Shetland influence and whether the height makes much difference but consistently I hear that any time/any mare and dystocias occur! But certainly it makes sense that there's more room to make corrections if necessary.

Also I've always appreciated lots of information on prior pregnancies/births from prospective sellers ...that history is so important to document and provide for the new owner.

And that's an important point that John mentioned: small hands. We use an equine clinic with female vets who do have small hands and can ultrasound or reposition when necessary!

MA ....is there any documented equation about evaluating the width of a pelvis besides xray, etc.?

Perhaps that's where that history of prior foals would also be of great importance in the broodmare.

Cindy