Have not read all the comments but to me, the mare screams of dwarf, and it seems the older the foal gets, the more it is appearing to be. I would not breed that mare again- I dont see any obvious dwarf in the stallion, but did he sire previous ones when bred with mares like this or this mare?
Dwarf Question.....
- Thread starter Tremor
- Start date
Help Support Miniature Horse Talk Forums:
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
I have never been one to trust blindly and shall always ask questions.
Suggesting by continual inference that to do so is to not respect someone is the lowest of bullying and I do not respond well to bullying.
I do not care if it is JE or the Queen of England, I shall always question, it is the only way to learn, and anyone who actually believes in what they are doing will welcome questions, as JE has always done.
Suggesting by continual inference that to do so is to not respect someone is the lowest of bullying and I do not respond well to bullying.
I do not care if it is JE or the Queen of England, I shall always question, it is the only way to learn, and anyone who actually believes in what they are doing will welcome questions, as JE has always done.
I was not trying to bully you, I am very sorry if you took it that way. I am all for questioning as I do it every day. I know we don't often agree on things, but I very much respect you and your opinions and I always look forward to your responses. Without others to disagree with me, I don't think I'd do as much research as I do. I hope you haven't taken anything personally and you continue to push me to learn as I do greatly appreciate it and thank you.
Last edited by a moderator:
horsehug
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2002
- Messages
- 2,379
- Reaction score
- 52
Jane,
I apologize if anything I said came across as bullying. I never intended that in the least.
I applaud all for asking questions also.
I am only saying John has always answered my personal questions and has worked tirelessly in his research for many years and he has my trust and thanks.
You have every right to question. I never meant to imply otherwise.
Again I apologize for anything I said that offended you. It was not my intent.
Susan O.
I apologize if anything I said came across as bullying. I never intended that in the least.
I applaud all for asking questions also.
I am only saying John has always answered my personal questions and has worked tirelessly in his research for many years and he has my trust and thanks.
You have every right to question. I never meant to imply otherwise.
Again I apologize for anything I said that offended you. It was not my intent.
Susan O.
Last edited by a moderator:
Molly's Run Minis
Well-Known Member
yes thats what i meant, minimal characteristics. to me minimal characteristicts and minimal dwarf kinda mean the same.
Gah.....I typed up my whole response and accidently went back to look through the thread. Forgive me if I begin to ramble....
@Lavonne,
I hope that I did not offend you when I outed Buddy as a dwarf carrier. I try to be brutally honest when I ask for help. The more truthful details the better. The more truthful I am the more honest responses I will get. When it came to Honey's (the dam) pregnancy thread, my truthfulness did NOT bring me a good light. I got a lot of criticism for my parents' shameful mistakes. A lot of members were banned for the way they treated me. There was nothing that I did wrong though. I tried to keep Honey away from Buddy that breeding year, and this year too. Obviously, a family member let them out together. I am proud to say though that we did urine test Honey in January and she came up negative. Hallelujah! Now, we have no stallions or uncut colts. If we ever do this year from Bow (my preggo mare) we do have an area to separate the colt. Hallelujah!
Now, just because Buddy produces dwarves does NOT mean any of his half brothers or sisters do. Remember that they have different sires.
A couple of you asked about Connor's bite. She has a fairly good bite, not perfect but not crooked like most dwarves.
A couple asked if the sire has produced dwarves with other mares. Yes. Three different mares, two with pretty good conformation.
A couple asked if he ever sired a dwarf with Honey, other than Connor. Yes. I will explain.
We bought our herd December 2005. We were new, new, new to miniatures. We did not think that Buddy would breed Honey due to her size. Well, we were wrong. April 2007 she gave birth to a chestnut appaloosa named Teddy. The birthing was horrendous. I've never seen a foaling so bad. Teddy, also was a miracle child.
I have pictures of Teddy as a foal, a yearlings, and from yesterday as a 4 year old.
Baby Pictures: (Sorry about the stall. We did NOT expect Honey to foal that day. My parents were gone and I just threw her into a stall so she could foal. I was in total panic mode when that happened...)
Yearling:
Three Years Old:
Four Years Old (Yesterday) :
From looking at Teddy, I see him as a dwarf. He, is one of the reasons why I was wondering about Connor. They just look so much different. I can count many things about Teddy that to me make him dwarfish.
I was reading this thread earlier today during school. It is interesting to see the different point of views of people on this subject. I was surprised to see people saying that she wasn't a dwarf. I would love to email John Eberth's about Connor, but I probably won't. He sounds like a busy man.
I must say, I was gutted to hear that there was a Type 5 dwarf. Does anybody have any info on that?
I will also say, I would LOVE to test any and all of my horses for the dwarf gene when the tests come out. (Even though I know most of them if not all are dwarves.) I would order one right away when they're available. As would many dwarf owners.
If Connor is a dwarf, then she's a dwarf. If not, then she's not. Doesn't really matter much to me. How could it? I don't do anything with her other than play with her and take her places. Heck, I'm surprised she puts up with bows as much as she does!
Thanks again guys.
@Lavonne,
I hope that I did not offend you when I outed Buddy as a dwarf carrier. I try to be brutally honest when I ask for help. The more truthful details the better. The more truthful I am the more honest responses I will get. When it came to Honey's (the dam) pregnancy thread, my truthfulness did NOT bring me a good light. I got a lot of criticism for my parents' shameful mistakes. A lot of members were banned for the way they treated me. There was nothing that I did wrong though. I tried to keep Honey away from Buddy that breeding year, and this year too. Obviously, a family member let them out together. I am proud to say though that we did urine test Honey in January and she came up negative. Hallelujah! Now, we have no stallions or uncut colts. If we ever do this year from Bow (my preggo mare) we do have an area to separate the colt. Hallelujah!
Now, just because Buddy produces dwarves does NOT mean any of his half brothers or sisters do. Remember that they have different sires.
A couple of you asked about Connor's bite. She has a fairly good bite, not perfect but not crooked like most dwarves.
A couple asked if the sire has produced dwarves with other mares. Yes. Three different mares, two with pretty good conformation.
A couple asked if he ever sired a dwarf with Honey, other than Connor. Yes. I will explain.
We bought our herd December 2005. We were new, new, new to miniatures. We did not think that Buddy would breed Honey due to her size. Well, we were wrong. April 2007 she gave birth to a chestnut appaloosa named Teddy. The birthing was horrendous. I've never seen a foaling so bad. Teddy, also was a miracle child.
I have pictures of Teddy as a foal, a yearlings, and from yesterday as a 4 year old.
Baby Pictures: (Sorry about the stall. We did NOT expect Honey to foal that day. My parents were gone and I just threw her into a stall so she could foal. I was in total panic mode when that happened...)
Yearling:
Three Years Old:
Four Years Old (Yesterday) :
From looking at Teddy, I see him as a dwarf. He, is one of the reasons why I was wondering about Connor. They just look so much different. I can count many things about Teddy that to me make him dwarfish.
I was reading this thread earlier today during school. It is interesting to see the different point of views of people on this subject. I was surprised to see people saying that she wasn't a dwarf. I would love to email John Eberth's about Connor, but I probably won't. He sounds like a busy man.
I must say, I was gutted to hear that there was a Type 5 dwarf. Does anybody have any info on that?
I will also say, I would LOVE to test any and all of my horses for the dwarf gene when the tests come out. (Even though I know most of them if not all are dwarves.) I would order one right away when they're available. As would many dwarf owners.
If Connor is a dwarf, then she's a dwarf. If not, then she's not. Doesn't really matter much to me. How could it? I don't do anything with her other than play with her and take her places. Heck, I'm surprised she puts up with bows as much as she does!
Thanks again guys.
horsehug
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2002
- Messages
- 2,379
- Reaction score
- 52
Tremor,
All I know is that John said the 5th type and newest one he found is quite severe and an early abortion type.
If you read about the other 4 in the part OHMT quoted from John's dwarf forum he also stated that the type 4 is a lethal one that does not go to term.
So any dwarfs we see that make it full term or that are alive...... are either type 1, 2 or 3.
In other words the types 4 and 5 would sometimes be reasons a mare aborts.
Hope this helps.
Susan O.
All I know is that John said the 5th type and newest one he found is quite severe and an early abortion type.
If you read about the other 4 in the part OHMT quoted from John's dwarf forum he also stated that the type 4 is a lethal one that does not go to term.
So any dwarfs we see that make it full term or that are alive...... are either type 1, 2 or 3.
In other words the types 4 and 5 would sometimes be reasons a mare aborts.
Hope this helps.
Susan O.
Thank you. I was wondering if Type 5 was lethal like Type 4. I don't know if I'm more saddened that I was right or if it were not lethal.
Matt73
Well-Known Member
But a dwarf is a dwarf. When saying "minimal", you're just saying that it's a less "extreme" form of dwarfism. Just like in people, there are "dwarfs" that are very proportioned and have few (if any) skeletal or physiological abnormalities (other than the small size). Then there are those have extreme deformities. Whether extreme or not...a dwarf is a dwarf.if memory serves me right, a horse can easily carry the dwarf gene without looking dwarfy themselves.
it also takes two parents with the gene to produce a dwarf, and lil Conner here certanly looks like a dwarf.
ETA: minimal dwarfs are entirely possible. Quoted from mini-horse.org:
"Equine dwarfism has a complete range of expression from almost-imperceptible (off-bite, short neck) to profound and crippling."
after reading more about dwarfism and looking at pics of your mare and Conner, i think both look like minimal dwarfs.
it looks like Conner's dam's head is longer than her legs and she has a pot belly. Conner has a really short neck with, what looks like, a 'domed' head.
i may be wrong, i'm just saying what i see
Last edited by a moderator:
Molly's Run Minis
Well-Known Member
i meant minimal characteristics. in my mind, its kinda like saying an appy that is all white with only a few black spots on its flank is still a minimal, or 'fewspot', appy. just like a dwarf is still a dwarf with only minimal signs. i think thats what people mean by 'minimal dwarf'.
there's no reason to start on arguement over it, people will still call it what they like
Last edited by a moderator:
Michelle@wescofarms
Well-Known Member
You should be very proud of yourself Julie for wanting to be better informed/educated and for not continuing to breed either parent.
I did vote yes based on the head/neck proportions of your mare. Although I will say I HATE to judge a horse by a photo knowing how ugly I can make the nicest horse with a camera!
The sire in question, I hope he's gelded now? Siring three dwarves from different mares - he needs to have his equipment removed. Any responsible breeder would.
I had a couple of foals born here (mother/daughter dams) to a stallion that I questioned as having 'dwarfy characteristics'. I ran them by John Eberth, and he said no it's conformation, no dwarfy going on - which was a relief! The mares with slightly long backs than ideal and a stallion the same all under 30", which produce two foals with longer backs than I liked under 27". Long necks, pretty heads, perfect bites, good leg/body proportion, but too sausagey for my tastes. Not a good mix IMHO! Both went to lifer pet homes. The same horses bred to other stallions/mares fantastic results.
As an aside - it's true a dwarf is or isn't a dwarf, but I do believe minimal expression is correct. You can see it in some horses, just off.
As for the person that said Mini's are mutants or man-made. ALL Horse and Dog breeds and most other domesticate animals are then. That's b.s. to say just Minis.
Again good for you on educating yourself. I'm glad everyone is being kind and helpful on this thread.
I did vote yes based on the head/neck proportions of your mare. Although I will say I HATE to judge a horse by a photo knowing how ugly I can make the nicest horse with a camera!
The sire in question, I hope he's gelded now? Siring three dwarves from different mares - he needs to have his equipment removed. Any responsible breeder would.
I had a couple of foals born here (mother/daughter dams) to a stallion that I questioned as having 'dwarfy characteristics'. I ran them by John Eberth, and he said no it's conformation, no dwarfy going on - which was a relief! The mares with slightly long backs than ideal and a stallion the same all under 30", which produce two foals with longer backs than I liked under 27". Long necks, pretty heads, perfect bites, good leg/body proportion, but too sausagey for my tastes. Not a good mix IMHO! Both went to lifer pet homes. The same horses bred to other stallions/mares fantastic results.
As an aside - it's true a dwarf is or isn't a dwarf, but I do believe minimal expression is correct. You can see it in some horses, just off.
As for the person that said Mini's are mutants or man-made. ALL Horse and Dog breeds and most other domesticate animals are then. That's b.s. to say just Minis.
Again good for you on educating yourself. I'm glad everyone is being kind and helpful on this thread.
Manyspots
Well-Known Member
Tremor, after seeing your pics it is good that you did quit using your Buddy for breeding. It is too bad you got off to such a bad start I hope that it won't discourage you in the future. I read your 4-H presentation too and that is good. Looks like you are enjoying and love your little horses and they give a lot of love in return . Keep learning all you can.
Michelle at Wesco, I am the one that said the vets at ISU refered to them as mutants. they were explaining the off bites and crowded mouths that is often found in the minis. We as breeders shouldn't be surprised when we find a mouth crowded with teeth. There was no mention of dogs, but I don't doubt there are breeds that people can take the resposiblity of causing problems.
I think the research that is being done on dwarves is a great project and it will help breeders in the future.
Michelle at Wesco, I am the one that said the vets at ISU refered to them as mutants. they were explaining the off bites and crowded mouths that is often found in the minis. We as breeders shouldn't be surprised when we find a mouth crowded with teeth. There was no mention of dogs, but I don't doubt there are breeds that people can take the resposiblity of causing problems.
I think the research that is being done on dwarves is a great project and it will help breeders in the future.
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
I think you deserve a standing ovation, I don't know about a pat on the back!
Talk about thrown in at the deep end, I know you are not that old now, so how you must have felt when the mare foaled unexpectedly four years ago, I just can't think.
Parents, eh, gotta love them (you only get one set, so it just as well )
If you look at the pictures of your (known) dwarf, you will see he does not look very dwarfy as a new born, and no more did Connor.
If you look as a yearling, well, in hindsight you can see but, honestly, he could just have a worm gut/ hay belly, or just be particularly small.
Now, of course, you can see clearly that he is a dwarf.
But he is undoubtedly the sort of little pony that people were selling "Miniature Horses" even a few years back- his type is the sort that allowed Bond Tiny Tim to go unnoticed (except by a few discerning people of course)
I still think Connor is a dwarf- if we are discarding the term "minimal" (and I do not actually see a reason to at the moment as I do think we all know exactly what we are alluding to) then she is an atypical, not fully expressed at present, dwarf.
I think she will become more obvious as she gets older, and I think she would be a great one to put forward to John (honestly, email him. He is busy but committed and interested, he may take a while but he will get back to you) as a test case for testing.
I am sure he is already lining up a few.
So go and get on Lil Bits if you are not already, and email John Eberth.
Very nice man, very approachable.
I think that the problem people are having with the word "minimal" is that they are taking it to mean "partial" which of course is not possible, whereas a lot of us interested in colour genetics are taking it to mean " minimally expressed" as with my Tobiano filly, who would test genetically as a Tobiano, even though she only has three white socks.
A "minimal" dwarf, to me, is one that would/will test as a dwarf, but shows only some characteristics.
I also think it not beyond the bounds of possibility that one or two "characteristics" such as wry mouth or very short neck, might actually be found, once we can test these things, to indicate dwarfism, just in the way that we now have a far greater understanding of Pinto characteristics, and know that there is no such thing as "normal" white markings.
Talk about thrown in at the deep end, I know you are not that old now, so how you must have felt when the mare foaled unexpectedly four years ago, I just can't think.
Parents, eh, gotta love them (you only get one set, so it just as well )
If you look at the pictures of your (known) dwarf, you will see he does not look very dwarfy as a new born, and no more did Connor.
If you look as a yearling, well, in hindsight you can see but, honestly, he could just have a worm gut/ hay belly, or just be particularly small.
Now, of course, you can see clearly that he is a dwarf.
But he is undoubtedly the sort of little pony that people were selling "Miniature Horses" even a few years back- his type is the sort that allowed Bond Tiny Tim to go unnoticed (except by a few discerning people of course)
I still think Connor is a dwarf- if we are discarding the term "minimal" (and I do not actually see a reason to at the moment as I do think we all know exactly what we are alluding to) then she is an atypical, not fully expressed at present, dwarf.
I think she will become more obvious as she gets older, and I think she would be a great one to put forward to John (honestly, email him. He is busy but committed and interested, he may take a while but he will get back to you) as a test case for testing.
I am sure he is already lining up a few.
So go and get on Lil Bits if you are not already, and email John Eberth.
Very nice man, very approachable.
I think that the problem people are having with the word "minimal" is that they are taking it to mean "partial" which of course is not possible, whereas a lot of us interested in colour genetics are taking it to mean " minimally expressed" as with my Tobiano filly, who would test genetically as a Tobiano, even though she only has three white socks.
A "minimal" dwarf, to me, is one that would/will test as a dwarf, but shows only some characteristics.
I also think it not beyond the bounds of possibility that one or two "characteristics" such as wry mouth or very short neck, might actually be found, once we can test these things, to indicate dwarfism, just in the way that we now have a far greater understanding of Pinto characteristics, and know that there is no such thing as "normal" white markings.
Last edited by a moderator:
