Clipping - Yeah - Nay - or some?

[Erica]

I have shown several of my string in FULL coats (of course they are tight) but all the way through Nationals....it does get tricky depending on the weather, as sometimes the nights are starting to get cooler and they want to "fluff", but I have shown 4 horses from first show in April through nationals all in full coats; 3 went multi National Champions and the other a National Top 3.....

You have to look at your horses and what looks better for it; and it comes down to your opinion!

 

[Echo Acres]

I absolutley hate body clipping and would love to see it as the norm to only touch up like I used to do my big horses. But with living in Minnesota I know that they would have to be blanketed and stalled all winter and maybe even under lights if we wanted to start showing in May like we do. So I had to vote for clipping. I did not vote for razoring since I am no good at it. But I do think that horses look good when it is done right.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

Exactly what I have always said. Good Lord...are mini judges really that obtuse that they need to see the poor horses SKINNED, in order to see them?

We don't show breed shows anymore, just ADS, but do you all think that it is really the judges that want a skinned mini, or is that just so much of the trend that no upper-level breeder dare go against it?

It isn't really the judges. I don't where that misconception comes from, other than that a good judge will take exhibitor-driven trends into consideration since presentation is an important part of showing your horse successfully. That said, in the most recent issue of the World the Judges Round Robin addressed this issue specifically on page 67. Here's what was said:

Q: One issue that was brought up was the concern over razoring horses' faces. The question was asked at the quorum - is razoring demanded by today's judges or just a personal preference.

A: Unanimously our judge's panel agreed less is more on this issue; total razoring is not needed or required. Partial or close trimming is preferable.

I believe all of the judges on the panel have judged and/or shown successfully at the World level.

 

[susanne]

Just to add:

The freedom to choose how you groom your horse needs to work both ways. I've heard too many people say that they hate razoring and close clips, but feel pressured to do it in order to win.

It's all well and good for people to demand their right to razor, but where do they get off being snarky toward (or behind the backs of) those who show natural?

Erica should be everyone's role model when it comes to clipping or not clipping to best suit her individual horse rather than clipping to please other people.

Erica, I hope more people look at your success with your natural-coated horses and follow suit.

That said, I personally feel preference and higher placement should be given the horse with a naturally glorious coat, all else being equal.

 

[Sue_C.]

It isn't really the judges. I don't where that misconception comes from

That misconception came from right here a few years ago when I questioned such extreme and continuous body clipping. It has even been told here that judges have made comments to those with a bit of growth on their horses...

this is similar to the silly banding done on stock breeds, nobody wants to do it, but EVERYBODY does it, because everybody does it...LOLOL!

 

[Minimor]

In some cases it IS the judges--I know people who have been told by judges (certainly not all judges, but there are some....) that they'd have done better if they had body clipped their horse. They see the full coat and feel that the exibitor didn't care enough to be bothered clip the horse--apparently they don't see that the horse looks great in a full coat, they see "sloppy". <shrugs>

 

[RockRiverTiff]

In some cases it IS the judges--I know people who have been told by judges (certainly not all judges, but there are some....) that they'd have done better if they had body clipped their horse. They see the full coat and feel that the exibitor didn't care enough to be bothered clip the horse--apparently they don't see that the horse looks great in a full coat, they see "sloppy". <shrugs>

I think in that instance if the horse really would have looked better body clipped then that judge's decision is justified.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I think in that instance if the horse really would have looked better body clipped then that judge's decision is justified.

Who's to say what "better" is? If it was a tight, shiny coat with rich color that showed all the muscles, I can't think that being skinned would have been an improvement. Others disagree.

Leia

 

[Minimor]

Point is, some here are saying that the "must clip" policy for showing miniatures has nothing at all to do with the judges, that it is only the exhibitors that say close clipping is a must for showing. I'm just disagreeing with that, as there are some judges who do believe that the show horses must be clipped. The judges didn't necessarily say the horse would have looked better clipped, they said the horses would have placed better had they been clipped. In those judges minds, those horses (and I have reason to suspect that those judges believe all horses) would look better clipped....for those judges I wouldn't think of showing a full coat mini, no matter how good I thought the horse looked with his hair on!

Does any given horse look better clipped or with a sleek full coat? That's entirely dependant on who is looking at the horse. Some will think clipped looks better, others will say the full coat looks better.

Pretty much in every case, no matter what feature is being judges, the judge's decision is justified--in his own mind! A judge can say that "I placed A over B because A had a better rear end" but like Leia said....what is better? A second judge might reverse the first judge's placings, arguing that B has a much better rear end than A. Better is in the eye of the beholder--if judge 1 likes a long hip, good muscling and good movement while judge 2 thinks that refined equals thin, good muscling means "too heavy" and a long hip means too much rear end, plus could care less about good movement (and yes, there are plenty of judges, owners and breeders who fall into each of those two camps!!!) then those two judges are going to place the same class quite differently. If one judge believes a full coat is sloppy grooming/presentation then he is going to place a horse down for having a full coat no matter how tight and shiny that coat is and no matter how fantastic the horse looks that way.

 

[Shadows Fire]

I think the best conformed horse should win, clipped on not. And shaving shouldn't come into the decision, after all it doesn't breed on.

 

[Sue_C.]

If one judge believes a full coat is sloppy grooming/presentation then he is going to place a horse down for having a full coat no matter how tight and shiny that coat is and no matter how fantastic the horse looks that way.

In showmanship, I would allow the judger's preference to affect placings for what they consider the "sloppy look", of a full coated mini. (Although I still would disagree with him/her.) But...in a HALTER class, a horse that the judge admits to having placed lower because of a natural coat...that...I would contest. To me, for a judge to judge a class that way, and to actually tell you that, they are highlighting thier ignorance of what a halter class truly is. It is where CONFORMATION, above and beyond a freshly clipped versus a tight well-groomed coat, should have 100% consideration.

Pretty much in every case, no matter what feature is being judges, the judge's decision is justified--in his own mind! A judge can say that "I placed A over B because A had a better rear end" but like Leia said....what is better? A second judge might reverse the first judge's placings, arguing that B has a much better rear end than A. Better is in the eye of the beholder--if judge 1 likes a long hip, good muscling and good movement while judge 2 thinks that refined equals thin, good muscling means "too heavy" and a long hip means too much rear end, plus could care less about good movement (and yes, there are plenty of judges, owners and breeders who fall into each of those two camps!!!)

But it is all about angles...yes, one horse might be bulkier/slimer/refined but if the angles are correct, then that is what counts. I would hope to never have to be judged by a judge who hasn't the slightest clue what good conformation is, and allows him/herself to be swayed so much by personal preferance that they mis-judge the classes. Those judges don't often get rehired, and go by the wayside. I am not saying they don't have preferances...but any good judge worth their money, will judge the class, to the conformation, and correctness of angles...this is where I see so many people getting confused...there is a huge differece in proper conformation, and "type".

 

[~Lisa~]

On what Minimor is saying..

Bottom line I have yet to see a perfect horse so of course when you have different judges they will each place different importance or lack there of on faults. One may be willing to forgive slight toeing out in front over a poor weak end.. Another might be willing to forgive a shorter neck over a longer back ect..

Judging is subjective period. Acknowledging that does not always equal a misinformed judge IMO

I have had judges tell me that they do think it a bit disrespectful and showing a lack of being prepared if ears are not naked inside face sculpted ect. I choose not to do that unless at a National show as my horses even the show horses are out 12 hours a day so it is something I accept if they feel that way. I may not like it but then I have the choice not to pay for someone elses opinion lol

All of that said many of our same judges do judge the ponies without them being clipped in a 30 often at the same show.. so it is not lack of experience or knowledge on the judges part it is simply something that has become the norm in showing a complete presentation.. When and if those at the top quit doing it.. then it will have a trickle down effect IMO

 

[~Amanda~]

I'm not currently one to show, but for myself personally, I like to see a well-groomed horse. As long as they look neat, clean, and trimmed properly (no long nasty hairs on the fetlocks, jaws, etc.), I think they look good.

 

I am not a fan of razoring or balding honestly. To me it just looks rather unnatural. Having their face trimmed to show off their features is fine, but naked skin is a 'turn off' for me.

 

[susanne]

Erica, could you please post photos of your slick, natural coat horses at nationals?

 

[~Lisa~]

I could be wrong but I am guessing Erica still sculpted heads?

It does come down to knowing 3 things.. your horses- your judges- and your competition

and then making the decision that works best for you

 

[GypsyMoonMinis]

I never liked razoring, honestly i think it looks unnatural, esp when they are oiled so much they look dripping wet. They do that with the Arabs too and it makes me sad (even though its 'illegal' they don't enforce it). I never heard of removing eye lashes! So much personality is there in those long lashes, that makes me sad to think about removing them. This year I clipped everyone early, a show clip with legs and heads so that when we do show at the end of July and august they will have grown out a nice coat thats long enough to sparkle and show their true color. I will do touch up clipping a few days before show(ears, bridle path, muzzle and feet). The horses are all different though and seem to grow their coats faster or slower. I really didn't want to clip my arenosa mare, she slicked out So nice this year (yay Omega Horseshine!) and has a gorgeous bloom but she just hung on to that stubborn belly fuzz.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The way I see showing in a natural coat is this:

You see men nowadays with that "stubble" beard thing. They are well barbered and the stubble part is obviously shaved every few days. The parts around the stubble area are shaved and clean. This is the correct way to do it and, if this is your "thing" looks good.

Then you have the men that just do not shave for a few days because (usually) they are just too lazy. They are not growing a beard, they do not shave around any part, they just do not shave. This is lazy and slovenly and any Judge faced with the equine equivalent of this would be justified in feeling slighted. No Judge faced with the equine version of the first example, however, would be justified in feeling slighted as a great deal of work and effort has gone into bringing the horse to this level. The book says either way of showing is correct.

Perhaps the Judges should actually judge according to the rules?

Of course in Europe Miniatures are the only breed of horse that is shown clipped, anyway, so I have the advantage of the Judge actually being more used to seeing an unclipped, but exquisitely tidy, animal, anyway.

 

[Mominis]

Personally, I like all of the fuss involved in grooming. I do body clip, sculpt faces AND razor. I like the way it looks on the face of my horse, who happens to have dark skin on his face. I've seen light skinned horses razored and think that is a DON'T, but I also think it should be left to the exhibitor. In breeds that don't allow razoring, it is still done and then blended to cover it up, giving judges and stewards one more thing to have to police.

 

[Erica]

Erica, could you please post photos of your slick, natural coat horses at nationals?

Susan here is one I have handy....

Here are some clean up fetlocks, bridlepaths, and face....and yes did razor, because I liked how it looked on them (now I have horses that I full body clip and don't razor as they have pink pigmented skin which I don't like at all...)

These first two pictures are the same horse - first picture in late June when her coat looked AWESOME so tight

At Nationals like I said in my first post, it's tricky come Sept as some years the weather is already getting cooler - you can tell she has more "hair" that's starting to fluff.....much if any more and I would have made the decision to clip her even if it meant loosing some of her color.

 

[Sue_C.]

So it can be done for sure...I cannot IMAGINE any judge looking at Erica's mare and feeling she hadn't put any effort, or otherwise feel slighted. This turnout is how I expect my horses to look; except for the razoring part...I just cannot do it, but it is a personal choice.

For any of you who think it is easier than body clipping...think again.