C- Section and lost foal today

[mama 'n me minis]

This morning our 6 year old maiden mare went into labor. We have had her under camera and pager for 53 days so we were right there. Water broke and then we had no presenting part or "bubble". Phoned the vet who wanted us at the University Of Georgia Vet hospital. We loaded the mare and set off for the 1 hour or so drive. (felt much longer) Upon arrival the bubble that had slowly appeared broke. A team of 6 or so vets attempted everything to deliver the foal and could not. The head was bent back against its shoulder. Faced with the choice of putting her down or doing the c section we went with the c section. She is still at the University and we are awaiting the placenta to deliver. It is looking like a 4000. dollar horrible day. We are of course hopeful that the mare survives.

Out of 5 mares we had in foal this year...only one delivered uneventfully. We have been there and managed to deliver the other 4 foals but have dealt with dystocia's, one red bag and dystocia,and one sack that did not break( until we broke it) and now this c section.

We have taken every measure that I know of to safely foal out mares. We hand breed, ultrasound, vaccinate, and pull off fescue timely. We have routine vet care and post foaling exams.We have cameras and pagers. One of the family has been home at all times with the pager for a couple of months now. We still have lost foals and maybe a mare this time. I have read foaling books, videos and had lengthy dicussions with my equine only vet. I am really at my wits end. My mom and I have spent thousands on our small herd and stallion, not to mention all those things that the horses need.

Last year was no better. We lost a foal to a septic joint thru a cracked hoof. (we think the mare stepped on him) We had a dwarf foal. (the stallion sired 2 dwarfs that year so he was gelded big $ loss there too) We also had a still born filly for some unknown reason. The year before we had a red bag breech foal loss. Different mares and stallions for the most part. Is it just me?? What is your percentage of loss, mares and foals?

I did not go into this thinking I would make money. I soon realized that I would not even break even if I did everything the best way. ( from ultrasounds , vaccinations etc...) I had hoped with all the knowlege I had gained and the cameras/pagers etc. that I really had a good chance this year. How do the big farms do it? How do you have 10 to 30 or more mares in foal and not have high losses? Do the big farms cut costs somewhere I am not thinking about ? I have truely micro managed these horses and still cannot seem to have an uneventful year.

Sorry for the long post. I just want to know is it my bad luck or is this just about par for the course with miniatures. It seems just the other day I was reading a post like mine and telling them to keep thier chin up that I was finally going to be OK this year. I was wrong and I don't think I have the heart for it anymore.

 

[Genie]

So sorry for your terrible times.

I usually encourage people to try to "hang in there" but you have had some pretty tough stuff to handle.

Good luck with whatever your decision might be and agbain, our deepest sympathy.

 

[sedeh]

I'm so sorry you lost the foal and I hope your mare recovers fully! It seems that bad events run in cycles. I've seen breeders have horrible years(and sometimes several years in a row) and then they'll have good, uneventful years. I think it all fits in the law of averages. Breeding minis is not for the faint of heart. I have a small herd and have only been delivering foals since 2005. I think I've been pretty lucky.....but I still have had 2 foals die. Whatever you decide....take some time and don't do anything rashly. I enjoy my foals so much I would really miss not having them.....but is it always worth the sleepless nights and constant worrying? I told my friend just the other day that I didn't know how many years I would keep breeding the minis. Eventually I'm going to phase that part out and just keep a retirement herd and a few performance/show geldings.

 

[Jill]

I am so sorry

There was one time last year and one time this year where I also felt like getting out of breeding and maybe out of minis really all together. For me, these feelings passed after a few days space from the traumatic events. I've also spent many years, time, and money putting together the herd I have and what keeps me going is the love of horses and pride for what we have been able to produce to date. I would strongly encourage you not to make any irreversible choices for at least a couple of weeks. You cannot "unsell" a beloved horse once he/she has been sold.

Good luck and healing thoughts are coming your way (from many of us!).

 

[mizbeth]

I agree with Jill, 100%. I've been there, done that too.

Best of luck to you in whatever your decision, but time does heal!

Beth

 

[Filipowicz Farm]

I am sorry for your loss. My thoghts are you will never be rich breeding horses. I think most of us do it for the enjoyment we get from our beautiful horses.and our love for them.

 

[targetsmom]

Oh, gosh, I sure feel your pain and am so sorry. I think it was a post about us that you are referring to. We have done like you - what we felt was all the right things with the best horses we can afford and have had similar experiences (and vet bills) over three years. Until last night when a miracle happened and our maiden mare delivered a spectacular LIVE colt. I would suggest that you not do anything in haste that you might regret later. Just 5 days made a huge change for us. Feel free to PM me any time if you just want to "talk". We can sure relate...

Mary

 

[Connie P]

I am SO sorry for your loss (es). Sometimes we get on a roll of bad luck and then all of a sudden everything changes. I agree with not making hasty decisions for a few weeks until things settle down a bit. I cannot imagine going through so many years of heartache. Bless your heart. Hugs!

 

[Riverdance]

I am so sorry for your loss.

Breeding is not for the faint of heart. I have been breeding for about 10 years. The last 4/5 very seriously. It seems every year I loose a foal or two. Last year I had a dystocia and one that died three days after he was born perfectly healthy.

The year before, I lost a beautiful buckskin filly. I had been watcing mom like a hawk. But that AM after a night of just standing in the corner, I took my eyes off of her for only aobut 15 minutes. When I came back into the room, there was a dead foal laying in the stall.

This year, my maiden mare had dystocia so bad that I am not sure we will be able to get her pregnant again. That one was a fantastic loud pinto palomino colt. The maiden mare was a bay pinto Windchaser daughter.

BUT..... I have also had some uneventful beautiful births. With some beautiful foals. Just an outstanding year this year. I love to watch the babies play with each other and run around the pasture. I enjoy each birth (though I must admit I am very nervious until I see two legs and a head. I live alone and have no help if there is trouble) I also though, do not have mares under 30" (or at least not many) I have a 29" and a 30.5", both scare me. My taller mares, for the most part, just spit them out. Maiden mares also scare me.

What I am saying is, we all go thorough it, losing a foal or two every year (I do not remember when I had a year that something did not happen)_

There are times I ask myself why I am doing it, then I go outsde and watch my latest perlino filly prancing around with as much movement as her big sister DeLa and I know why I am doing it.....

 

[fancyappy]

The most heartbreaking aspect of having animals is loss. It can overshadow the reasons we have animals to begin with.

We have them because we love them.

For some of us, animals speak to us in the deepest part of our hearts. They are part of who we are in the truest sense. The love and enjoyment is the payoff. That is what puts gas in our tanks so to speak.

And when we lose an animal in spite of our best efforts , the pain is tremendous.You have lost many and I can not imagine how heavy your heart is right now. Try not to throw in the towel while you are in such distress. Give yourself some time to absorb all of this. Who you are, what you wanted to do with your horses is still there and when the grief subsides a bit you will have a clearer mind and opinion on how you want to proceed.

I have been there. I understand.

I look around me now and am grateful I went forward. All the little faces that greet me each day....well that is what is most important for me.

I know with a bit of time and reflection you will not only feel better about things, you will also feel stronger. You have learned alot and that experience is worth so much.

I am so sorry for your losses and my heart goes out to you.

 

[barnbum]

For some of us, animals speak to us in the deepest part of our hearts. They are part of who we are in the truest sense. The love and enjoyment is the payoff. That is what puts gas in our tanks so to speak. .....You have lost many and I can not imagine how heavy your heart is right now.

That was so nicely written... I can't imagine your heartache.

I have been lucky--only six foals in six years have been born here--and all are fine. But, the stress from the endless "what ifs?" and sleepless nights helped me decide to geld my stallion. I've not been in a buying mode for years, but now I can see how much easier it would be to just choose foals for sale from other farms. Not quite the same, but the trade off is worth it. I felt my luck would run out if I kept it up and the scales would start to turn, so I stopped.... As far as making it a business--from seeing prices on the sales page, it's easy to see that's not going to happen for the vast majority (does anyone actually make money on breeding minis out there??), so enjoying them minus the breeding foaling is easier on one's heart.

I hope you're heart heals more each day.

 

[Becky]

I am so very sorry for your losses and I do hope that your mare will be ok.

I've been breeding miniatures since 1990, (purchased my first one in 1989) and have learned a lot over the years. What I have learned is that an abnormal amount of foal losses is not genetic. You need to think outside the box when looking for answers. I hope you find yours and I hope you don't give up.

 

[Windhaven]

I am very sorry to hear you have had such a run of bad luck. Unfortunately, it does happen, and most of the time we can not explain why.

I had a friend that had the same trouble like you. She lost 3 of 4 foals, three years in a row and has lost some mares too. It was not her fault. She had a full time job and a sick husband, but she was there and it still happened. So I started taking her mares a month before they were due and she started having 4 healthy live foals and mares. I can fix distocias(sp) if caught soon enough and I was home all the time.

Maybe if you had someone near you in the mini breeding that would help you (like this) just to get through this tough time, it might work.

 

[Joanne]

When I first started out I was trying to do everything right, just like you are, and had a few losses.

I knew someone that just let his foals be born naturally outside in a lava rock covered field. He would go out in the morning and just find these incredible foals on the ground alive. It seemed like he had much better luck than I.

Last year I started my year with a loss and it was a tough one. I know I felt like you do now.

I am so glad you took the time to write your post and express what you are thinking. Just know that others have gone through this too and we are here to provide support to you through your challenging time.

I am hoping for the best for your mare.

 

[shelly]

So sorry for the loss of your foal and I truly hope and pray your mare recovers quickly and fully. Please take some time to heal before you make any hasty decisions...{{{HUGS}}}

 

[zoey829]

I am so sorry!!!!

 

[mama 'n me minis]

Thank you all for the replies. For some reason, it helps knowing that others have loss like this. As mentioned in another post, I too know of a breeder that has 30 plus mares on pasture (pasture bred) and they just have them. No cameras, no alert system and no clean birthing stall with attendance. She does not admit to losses but I can't imagine her not having them. I think if I did that I would lose everything.

My mare is doing well. She is up eating and acting well per the vet report today. She is starting to deliver the placenta. We are very hopeful that none will be retained. We are not going to disperse the herd just yet. We are going to just think on it a while.

Thank you all again for the support on this forum.

 

[Bess Kelly]

Out of 5 mares we had in foal this year...only one delivered uneventfully. We have been there and managed to deliver the other 4 foals but have dealt with dystocia's, one red bag and dystocia,and one sack that did not break( until we broke it) and now this c section.

We have taken every measure that I know of to safely foal out mares. We hand breed, ultrasound, vaccinate, and pull off fescue timely.

Hoping and expecting your mare to get through this well. Please take what I have to say in the best of light as I am sharing some experience with you. The paragraph above says it all for ME! I had a year of fescue losses.......14 foals.....2 mares in C-section in one week.... those foals who were born were sometimes with dystocia and some weak......several mares did not settle and hold foals for the next year. The 4 mares who did foal easily had been on the show circuit and at trainers during their pregnancy until late Fall. They were not put onto the grass as they were not used to pasture and my herd of donkeys had NO problems but, were never on the fescue.

There is such a high, high, HIGH rate of problems with fescue which has the endophyte in it, that there is a question as to what is "timely". This is especially true for a mini. The do not have the same metabolism as the big horses and handle some things differently. Fescue, Quest and Bute are three things that come to mind at once.

That said, not all fescue is the same relative to the strength of the endophyte toxins. From year to year it can change, being affected by some of the same things that contribute to good/bad hay nutrition.....weather, stress, fertilization, time of day, temps, etc. I have volumnes of study data for this and the effects of the toxin upon horses -- controlled studies by vets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Many done by the Dr who developed Domperidone (which was only in the trial test stages when my episodes happened and he was an expert witness at a lawsuit I brought, involving this fescue stuff).

KILL the fescue. Every issue you mentioned is one fescue is known to cause. Yes, it can happen without the toxin but, as you see by the replies, not in this quantity and across the board status. I was a very "closed" test ground, as it turned out....all else was status quo....same handlers, feed, hay, farm, etc. Only the endophyte fescue was different.

My two mares, by the way, recovered very nicely. These were early Spring foals. One mare re-bred late summer and foaled uneventully the following year, the other did not conceive for a few years. I put her on Body Builder for a winter, she conceived that Spring, foaled uneventfully the following year and so on. It also came to pass, in a few months after the litigation ended, that claims I had made regarding the problems of early loss with last 4-6 weeks, not holding an initial conception due to fetus not implanting in uterus, and low re-breeding rates, were proven by a study to be fact! (Another posted test study).

Please take this into consideration before you blame yourself and nature. I also had/have/used all the cameras, alerts, etc. They DO work. Body Builder was a thing I used with success in rehab for the mares systems. Time is just necessary to clear them out. Having pulled everyone off of the offending pastures, killing (took 2 yrs, lots of Roundup, re-seed with cover crop, re-kill, then perm pasture seeded) the fescue and the rehab above, all was well. There were then only the occassional need to assist.....no more than normal. You know what? I only had 28 & under minis at that time.

Many of those gals are still with me, still producing and delivering unassisted. Take a deep breath, suck it up and re-work those pastures. Oh, hay with fescue can be as bad. Also, the endophyte free type of fescue is fine. I use bermuda, Ky Blue & Orchard now.

 

[Mona]

I am so terribly sorry for these tough decisions you are facing. Breeding is definately a challenge, with both ups and downs. Those down can be really hard to swallow. I send my best wishes for you, with whatever it is you end up deciding to do.

 

[minie812]

I am so sorry for the loss of your foal. We had a ggod year the first year we bred with 4 very healthy foals. So the nx year it was bad with 2 lost out of the three then bred for six in 2009 and so far three healthy folas with one left to foal any day. I guess that is a good average but either way it is sad when you lose them after waiting and planning but as others have said it isn't for the faint of heart and financially it can be devastating.