Breeding and Stud fee questions

[GrandmaC]

I have several questions this morning.

I'm looking to have a mare bred within the next month. This being a first time for me with mini's I was wondering

what the average stud fee's seem to be out there? Realizing it varies and depends on several factors, just looking for an average.

In the QH world as I knew it over a decade ago, many bred their mares trying to get Jan and Feb foals due to the

'they all turn a year old on Jan 1.' And the idea that one born in summer was months younger than one born in Jan or Feb.

March foaling's were acceptable, April and May was not desirable, but no one wanted a June, July and Aug baby. etc

When do most of you like your foals born? If I can find the right stallion for this mare and I can get her bred no later than mid June

then I'd be expecting a mid to late May foal. How do you all plan your breeding/foaling dates and would you explain why you like those times.

This mare is an own daughter of Top Banana, I need help finding a stallion and if anyone can suggest a stallion (IM me, don't post it here) that would be withing say 750 miles of me (Yakima, WA area) please IM me. I'd like to find more of a really nice driving stallion for this mare vs a halter stallion. One with actual driving achievements. She is 33.5 and I'd like to get a foal in the 31 to 33.5 range range. She is a buckskin, I wouldn't mind a pinto of some sorts.

Are there any site with a chart of probable colors when breeding one color to another? The only color I am not fond of are cremelo's. Don't know why, but they just never appealed to me. Other than that I love all colors.

Have other questions, will add them later.

 

[chandab]

I can only answer a couple questions.

I like to breed for May/June foals for two reasons; its too blasted cold before that in this part of Montana, and I need to wait for our calving to be about done (calves take precedence, so get the main barn during calving season, March/April for us).

With QH and other full-size breed, the earlier you foal the bigger they are when it comes time to be ready for futurities as 2 and 3 year olds (most are under saddle), so they have more growth on them and look physically ready for saddle even if they aren't mentally (and some aren't physically despite what they look like). [My AQHA and APHA foals were born in March (1), and June (2). Mare I bought was born in April.]

With Minis, since its supposed to be the smallest correct horse, all other things equal; a slightly later foal would likely be smaller.

If you would rather not have a cremello (I'll assume you would like to stay away from all double creams; cremello, perlino and smokey cream - all essentially white with blue eyes); then breed her to a non-cream dilute stallion, so black, bay, sorrel (with or without silver or dun).

Good luck with your search.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I agree with Chanda about timing, I prefer my foals born around now, and now on, so I am not breeding back the mares that have just foaled, till next month.

As to timing....well, let's just say that mares, as you have probably seen form the Forum already, do not know they are supposed to foal a certain number of days after they have been bred, and tend to ignore all the calendars, even when you hang them on the stall wall.

One year I had a lot (too many) mares foaling and so I staggered then out into three groups, to foal a month apart, in groups of, I think, four (I do this on my own, so that was quite enough mares for me!)

Anyway, long story short we had ROTTEN weather, I had all the mares in, and I had three foals born on ONE day and twelve foals in one week......

So, it's really best not to plan too much as the mares will scupper any and all plans you have.

Stud fees will vary according to what people are offering, (live foal, no fee, etc) and the show record of the stallion, or possibly the show record of his get (which would actually interest me more!)

Also you have to factor in mare keep, which, again, would vary and I really do advise you to take a look at facilities before packing her off to a stranger, too.

I think asking on this Forum is a good way to start, as you are going to get a much "homelier" friendlier approach, and also, of course, someone who would not normally offer a stallion at public stud may well answer.

Good Luck.

 

[Tab]

I can tell you from personal experience as related to our location in PA only. January, February, March and April are all too early for this climate. I slept out in the barn for 2 weeks in April waiting for a mare to foal (without a heat lamp) and never again will I breed for April. I am lucky I didn't freeze to death. May and June are probably the most perfect months for us, but April might be better for you. I do not know much about the WA climate.

May and April seemed to have changed hands this year. We have our heat running in May and we are having May showers. Go figure

The Coat Color Calculator can help you estimate the colors of the foal. Of course knowing what color traits the mare and stallion are dominant for makes this determination more accurate. I enjoy spending time there thinking about what my horses might be able to produce

If you absolutely want pinto you could look for a stallion tested positive homozygous for pinto.

The average stud fee is around $500, but up to $1,000+ if you are looking to breed to a stallion with an extensive show/performance record. People would really luck out, though, if they looked around and found a really awesome stallion versus one who has just been campaigned (I'm just sayin'). You can find reasonable stud service out there.

May is probably the best month for foaling. Around here anything earlier is too cool and anything later is too buggy, and may be too hot. Anything later than September is also much too cool. A lot of these months require an infrared heat lamp. I have a mare due in July and it might be too warm and too buggy (we shall see).

Hope this helps.

 

[Carolyn R]

Don't forget about insurance! Many reputable breeders with well shown, higher end studs will prefer you to have your mare insured.

EDIT

Reread the topic, I didn't realize the age of the mare. No, insurance isn't an option, most companies don't insure past age 15. If you find a company that will insure her it, it will be costly.

As already stated, you may have a hard time finding a breeder that is willing to take the time to breed an aged mare to their stallion and offer a live foal gaurantee.

If they do offer a live foal gaurantee and you do not end up with a live foal will they take their time to rebreed, will they refund the money, will they transfer the breeding to a different mare?....

You're not new to horses, so I am sure this has already crossed your mind.

There would have to be some lenghty conversations and alot of info in writting with any potential breeder offering stallion services.

 

[mizbeth]

Hi

All good suggestions you have here. Perhaps you can look at AMHA sponsors ad pages and find a breeder in your area? Shipping or hauling would have to be considered as well. This time of year.........is great weather for foaling.

I do not think that you will be able to insure a 20 year old mare. Or if you could it would be costly.

Good luck in your search for the perfect stallion.

Beth

 

[MountainMeadows]

CJ

The west coast is chock full of National/World contenders in the driving world - in fact, the majority of the winners have come from the west coast in the past few years - so that is a "good thing" for you.

Personally, in your situation with a 20 year old mare, who was NOT bred last year, I would have her bred to one of the stallions on the farm from which she is currently situated. Moving her and expecting her to settle in comfortably in a new environment, and then successfully settle is asking a lot of her - and of the stud owner. Mini mares are not as easy to breed as full size mares - and don't take well to the stress of new situations & being moved. Remember, after she is bred she will need to be moved once again to your place, and that stress can also take it's toll on her and the baby. I understand that you want to breed for the direction you intend to pursue as a breeder - BUT, it may just not be in her plan. The least amount of stress will be the best for her and for the baby.

As far as stud fees go - there are many stallions on the west coast that have produced driving contenders and their fees will range from around $1000 to well over $2,000 PLUS mare care and vet bills,insurance - so it can really add up. The fee will depend a lot on how they have produced -- not all winners can actually REPRODUCE a winner - that is of course the value in choosing one stud over another. You also need to question whether your mare herself is truly a driving producer - remember that easily 70% of the resulting foal is going to be the mare - NOT necessarily the stallion, so if you mare is a little "pitter patter" of a mare, don't necessarily expect her to be able to reproduce a serious driving contender - no matter WHAT she is bred to. That is where dealing with a dedicated breeding program can really help you attain your goals The other question to ask is whether or not the stallion owner will give you a Live Foal Guarantee - with the mare at age 20 you may not get that, so I would be prepared to have that discussion.

I have some wonderful mares and stallions who have come from many generations of "driving breeding" and even with all that going for me it is not unusual for a foal to be produced who really doesn't have "it" when it comes to really being a driving contender - can I force it - sure - is it worth it -- not necessarily - not financially and not for the ultimate results that I would get.

I would have a discussion with the current owner of the mare and get their take on the situation - in your shoes, I would be more inclined to get her in foal and to carry full term than to try to create something that may actually end up not working out - remember, the stud fee is probably the least of your expenses in producing a foal. If the mare owner doesn't feel inclined to breed the mare for you, and confirm her in foal thru a vet's ultrasound - that would set up some red flags for me.

Stacy

 

[Miniv]

A Ditto to what Stacy posted just above.... She's been breeding, I believe, a few years longer than us and producing championship get for many years. She also happens to be in the same state as YOU.

If you happen to decide to move your 20 yr old mare to be bred, I would be prepared to leave her there for awhile.....The safest time to move a pregnant mare is during their middle trimester. (I am speaking from experience. My husband and I used to transport for many years.)

 

[GrandmaC]

On my way out the door, so quick note.

I mentioned in an earlier post she was 'nearing 20' not that she was 20.

She is in fact 18. There are no stallion on the farm where she's at. One reason she is being sold.

The woman feels with her blood lines she should go to someone who would breed

her and not let her linger as a pasture pet as she and the other min's are now. The persons goals

have changed due to life situations. She has no qualms keeping her a pasture pet, she just feels that isn't fair to

the mare and her lines. Just a personal opinion on the sellers part.

The lady doesn't have a stud for her and if she was in a position to take her to get bred she had her eye on a stallion in Oregon.

This is totally a situation where 'life' truly got in the way for this seller and her goals are being put on hold for a few years.

This mare will be to old in a 'few' years.

Due to being in the QH world, I am familiar with vet fees, mare care, and 10 yrs ago the QH breeding fees were anywhere from $500. for the backyard hobby breeder to 1,500 to $5,000 for some performance studs to a ranch I worked in Oklahoma many years back where one of the top named QH halter stud was commanding $10,000.

Just was not at all familiar with mini stud fees since I'm a newbie.

I know I have a lot to learn and years of 'dues' to pay and I appreciate everyone's wisdom.

This first time I'm going with a little of others wisdom and a little on gut feeling.

What's the worse that can happen? I end up with a sweet foal that will be ready to work with about the time

my youngest granddaughter is old enough to be around the mini's.

And if by chance I can't get her in foal then my 7 y/o granddaughter and I will have a mini

to love, groom and have fun with.

 

[midnight star stables]

I sent out two mares last year to be bred. I did loads of searching for Mr. Right. I found stud fees range from $150(Yes, that's right!

Many were $300-550...) all the way up to $3000, so really the prices are all over the map. It comes down to what you want.

I found that I wanted early, March to May foals, because I show. I didn't have any foals this year, but in the future, this is still where I stand.

Happy hunting!

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Carol - join NWMHC or check their site. As Stacy said the West Coast and particularly the NW have wonderful driving horses, and a huge knowledge base. Plus most are really nice and helpful!

As for your mare, definitely get some opinions (other than the person you're buying her from) as to the mares pedigree and movement if you're going to invest alot of money in stud fees. Also a strong contract will make you and the the stallion owner happy.

As for foaling I would take the advice from the people in your area. I'm in Northern CA, but prefer foals to be born in April - hopefully beating the cold and heat. May is about as late as I like, March the earliest. The heat here is literally a foal killer when its spikes into the 105+ range some summers.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I don't have anything to add just wanted to suggest you take Stacy's advice - about moving the mare around, etc. Also, and this is just my opinion, I would never consider breeding a mare of mine to a stallion with a $500 stud fee. Why? Because if his sperm is only "worth" $500 then I'm not risking my mare's life for one of HIS babies. Simple. Now, if they are friends of yours and the normal fee is $2000 and they just want to give you a break, that's wonderful! But if the fee is under $1000 (my opinion) then the owners are either crazy and don't know what they have or the stallion isn't producing quality foals. Think about it? Why would you charge $500 for a stud fee when you can get $2000 or more for a live baby? Just doesn't add up. If the stud fee is $500 then that horses foals are only selling for $1000 max in my opinion. You say you want a stallion with accomplishments? You aren't going to find it without putting out some dollars. But you're not new to horses so that won't surprise you.

 

[maestoso]

From a show ring perspective, there are advantaged and disadvantages to the timing that foals are born. Early foals often look far more mature then their spring/summer born "classmates" but if they are at the top of the height spectrum you may run into measuring problems at the world/national shows, especially in the horses yearling year.

The biggest differences you will see will be in weanling and yearling classes. In a weanling class at the world show in october, it is often very easy to tell the ones that were born much earlier in the season. It is often the same in yearling classes. Things seem to even out by their 2 yr old year when horses look almost like adults anyway, the difference is much less.

If you don't plan to show, or show on a limited basis, it is much easier to have a foal when it's a bit warmer then in the frigid cold

Timing is preference really, and depends on what your goals are.

Another consideration is that while it isn't common, some breeders show the stallions that they are using for breeding. So if you are sending your mare to be bred to a stallion that shows, the breeder may only allow this pre-show season.

 

[mydaddysjag]

For what it seems like you want from a stallion, probably $1,000 or up for a stud fee.

I know this isnt what you asked, but honestly, with the market the way it is, from a financial standpoint, you can get WAY more bang for your buck buying a horse that is exactly what you want than buying a mare, paying the stud fee, and the vet fee's. If you spend some time on the sales board, you often see national champion geldings for under $2,000. These are horses who are already trained, and proven in the show ring. With a breeding for a baby you have to buy the mare, pay the stud fee, pay the vet fee's, hope you dont lose the mare and foal due to a foaling accident (which are VERY common in the miniatures, whereas its a much smaller concern with big horses) then hope the foal comes out great (great bloodlines and parents do not guarantee a great foal) then you have to spend the money or time on a trainer. In the end for a finished driving horse if you sent it out to a trainer, you probably have at least $5,000 in it, and in reality, in this market, the horse is only worth $1,500 if that.

 

[Shortpig]

For what it seems like you want from a stallion, probably $1,000 or up for a stud fee.

I know this isnt what you asked, but honestly, with the market the way it is, from a financial standpoint, you can get WAY more bang for your buck buying a horse that is exactly what you want than buying a mare, paying the stud fee, and the vet fee's. If you spend some time on the sales board, you often see national champion geldings for under $2,000. These are horses who are already trained, and proven in the show ring. With a breeding for a baby you have to buy the mare, pay the stud fee, pay the vet fee's, hope you dont lose the mare and foal due to a foaling accident (which are VERY common in the miniatures, whereas its a much smaller concern with big horses) then hope the foal comes out great (great bloodlines and parents do not guarantee a great foal) then you have to spend the money or time on a trainer. In the end for a finished driving horse if you sent it out to a trainer, you probably have at least $5,000 in it, and in reality, in this market, the horse is only worth $1,500 if that.

So just my opinion but this post should be copied and pinned at the top of the page. That way anyone at anytime can go read it and realize that what they are wanting to do should be left to those who breed only large numbers of foals a year. Breeding is not for those who want that one foal from a mare they own to share with maybe their grandkids and raise and shape the way they want it. It's really really getting old this year. It seems like anytime someone asks a question that involves breeding this has to be said by someone. Not sure how this topic went from asking about stud fees to this kind of a post. It was suggested to me that I leave the breeding to the professionals. Excuse me but is there a school that these people have attended, a college or something where they have all studied breeding miniature horses?

Don't get me wrong I respect the big name farms who breed but I also find it disrespectful to post like this to everyone who is considering breeding their mare. Yes this has been a bad year for alot of foaling situations. Yes a person could lose that mare they really love a bunch. But they could also end up with the foal they have been wanting for awhile from the pair that they choose to breed.

Then there is the go to the sales board and you will find exactly what you want without having to breed for it. Well I searched the sales board and I didn't see one foal on that board whos Dam was D/F Dukin into Springtime. I really wasn't surprised considering she is my mare and has never been bred before. She is from my mare and stallion so I can honestly say the chances of finding that foal are pretty slim. Actually its a zero percent possibility at this time.

Honestly I think this one has been beat to death.

 

[Tab]

For what it seems like you want from a stallion, probably $1,000 or up for a stud fee.

Are you actually implying that she can't find a valuable stallion to breed to for under 1k?

 

[mydaddysjag]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come off as rude, or anything like that. I had seen a few of the OP's other posts, and realized she was new getting into minis, wasn't quite sure what she wanted, what quality, etc. I didn't know if she knew that this was a GREAT buyers market. Also, along with the stallions stud fee, you have mare care, hauling, etc, so even a $500 stud fee isn't going to simply cost you $500 in the end to get the mare bred. Also, she mentioned that she was looking for a stallion with driving achievements, and I may have wrongly assumed that meant she probably was looking for a horse with maybe a HOF in the breed show ring, national champion, etc. I know when I was looking into driving stallions with credentials like that, it was going to be around $1000.

I wasn't trying to be rude, pushy or anything like that. I don't believe that only big farms should breed, or only they have the right to, or anything like that. I don't breed, but that does not mean I think others shouldn't. I just had been following the original posters threads, and realized shes only been researching minis for a few weeks or so, and might not have seen some of the deals that pop up on the sales board.

I know last year I purchased a multiple time national champion and reserve national champion horse who has points in just about everything, a HOF in halter, darn near a HOF in 3 other events, was a halter horse of the year, etc for a price that I could NEVER imagine. MUCH less than paying a stud fee and having to purchase a mare. In fact, his sire did not even stand to outside mares. He is a son of LTD's Red Cloud, and a grandson of LTD's Magic Man. This isn't a horse with one foot in the ground, he is still actively being shown on the AMHR level. I did have to search the sale boards for about two months to find him though.

To the OP, Im sorry if I may have offended you or anything like that, it wasn't my intention. To the other posters who I upset, Im sorry I upset you as well, but dont think I deserved to be "jumped", as you have never seen me post anything like that before, so I thought it was kind of rude to go on and on about being tired of people posting it over and over.