Bit info please

[JAX]

What is the smallest bit made and who sells it?

 

[JAX]

I have a very small little guy who I think would enjoy a job of pulling things around and I believe it would be good for building him up. I think he is too small to pull a person around but I would like to ground drive him while he pulls a little something... I also have a young filly who I would like to teach to ground drive now even though I understand she cannot actually start pulling until she is around 3, is that correct?

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Just how small is your little guy? I have a 28" (or 28.5 depending on the day/measurer) mare who not only can drive and pull my less than svelte self around with relative ease, but loves it. She wears a 3.5" bit but we also have2 - 30" geldings and one takes a 4" and the other needs a 3.5". Your best bet is to measure your horses mouth to determine what size is correct for him. There is no guarantee that your filly will take the same size bit as him either even if she is the same size as he is. You don't say how old she is but if she is under a year I would give her more time. Just my opinion but babies need to be babies, you wouldn't expect a kindergarten student to study grade 6 math, I don't believe we should ask a young horse to learn what the adults do either. After all, the work you do up until the horse is 3 (or older depending on the horse - I have one who wasn't mentally ready until he was 5) counts a great deal in preparing the horse to be a reliable driving horse. You prepare the foundation with in hand work while they are young and you also help them to learn how the understand you so that when the time comes for driving training it is not so confusing for the green horse. I believe someone once said "for every thing there is a season" and so it is with horses, the 'season' for driving is not meant to be the same as the season for learning to lead well and accept basic handling. Ok... enough of that, I don't mean to lecture and I don't know your horse or situation , so... In answer to your question, the smallest bit I know of is a 3.5 and you might try Ozark or any of the places that sell mini bits.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I think 3 1/2" . Do not know how small your guy is, but I had a 28 3/4" boy who was a powerhouse. It depends on their build, conformation, and how they develop their muscle. Definitely get him started! You'll probably be surprised at how well he can do.

 

[paintponylvr]

The smallest bits I'm finding is 3.5". I could have sworn that I had at least a solid bar bit in a 3", but maybe not. If you truly need a smaller bit for your horse, you can go custom made OR make your own (if you do metal work, great) out of cord, haystring or leather. Won't have quite the same effect as a metal bit, you may like the results better or maybe not so much.

As to the filly - how old? Still on her dam (that's what I figure when someone combines "young" and "filly" in the same sentence,

). Anyway - basic halter work - getting the voice commands that you want her to understand while in harness is starting point. I also teach mine to not only lead from the left (normal) side, but also to lead from the right. In short sessions (5-15 minutes), you can introduce her to lounging and again apply voice commands. Lead and "lounge" over obstacles - poles on the ground, tarps, bridge, ditch, different footings, water. Sometime in the late yearling to 3 year range, you gradually switch from just a small amount of lounging to line driving and then to circle driving and then to actual ground driving from behind her.

This is an on-going process that we've found works best if started in foal hood and continuing thruout the horse's life. I've hooked a horse as young as 2 yrs of age (middle to late), but have found that only works if they are truly GOOD/SOLID in the voice commands and basics mentioned. The older mares that I started in harness had some basic work and we built upon that to get to driving "sooner"...

I think you were a member when several of us had lengthy and detailed posts on what we were doing to train our horses (none of us were pros and we were sharing our experiences) in the past couple of years. Search out training info. One member even posted some AWESOME video of her work with a "long" yearling gelding and SHARED the differences between his personality/training issues and her other geldings personality/training.

My website and the concurrent blog/news posts are currently not working, but I can share photo albums showing some of the training we did w/ different ponies. Just no explanations as to how it all went, etc...

I have mostly larger ponies and pony/horse x's. The smallest horse I've worked with was a still growing mare - measured 34" when we started basic ground handling. I believe she's now a solid 37" or so(at the withers) - would have to measure her. I don't have experience with the smaller horses and pulling, or any specialized harness issues you may have w/ a smaller horse. BUT the basic training is the same and so is conditioning.

More info on your two horses would be great. We like when folks share!

 

[JAX]

Ok well the little guy is a 5 year old 27.5" stallion. He is a VERY good boy and I would love for him to have a job

We are working on halter fitting with him but I think he sometimes get bored of just working in the round pen and I would love to see him pull a little cart as I think he has the mind for it but I am just not sure that his little body could take much weight. I do understand that they need to be built up slowly but I am not sure just how to do that with one so little. I wondered about the hyperbike as it is so light but when I add my own weight that would still make him pulling 190 lbs total. I did find a 3" bit and a 3.25" bit. We measured his mouth with a straw and it comes out between those two sizes.

The filly is only 4 months but I was really just thinking that if I got her used to a bit now that that would be one less thing to teach later. I think she will be about 32-33" in height and I guess I am just chomping at the bit to do something with her lol. She is an angel at leading and trailering and bath time and tree time. I took her to a play date a couple weeks ago and she did the teetertotter, trotting the poles(kind of lol) , backing between the poles, walking through the hanging noodles etc. great. We did skip the little jump as I understand she is too young for that. Hmmmm as I read what I just wrote maybe she is doing enough already lol. Well anyway the moment she was born I knew I wanted to keep her as a driving horse because of her size. So is it not a good idea to teach her about driving without actually having her pull anything yet? I have seen videos of very young ones who seemed to enjoy line driving and going through obstacles and I guess I thought it would be good for her and make it easier for when she is physically mature enough to actually start pulling any weight. She really does seem to enjoy doing new things so it makes me feel like she is ready to conquer the world. I do understand what you are saying about her not being ready mentally though so maybe I should just back off for awhile. I think maybe I am just a tad bit too excited...

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Your young one does sound busy. Nothing wrong with a few minutes of gentle training each day but even tho she seems eager to you I would suggest that she might need more time just being a baby. You will have lots of time to start harness training. I'd say you have good instincts and only you know your horse and yourself well enough to know when enough has become too much.

I think you would be surprised just what your little stallion can do in harness. Don't forget that minis were developed to pull loads. I was sceptical about driving my 28" mare too, but people on here told me to go ahead and try and I have been very surprised not only by her ability to drive with me in the cart (I weigh more than I like to admit - with cart its definitely more than your estimated weight with the bike) but also by how much she clearly enjoys it. I don't drive her on long hills or rough terrain until she is 'legged up' each year but she happily does 3 hour and more road drives by mid summer and is often leading the bigger horses as she steps out smartly while they tend to get lazy as the day goes on.

Re: the bit size- if the measurement falls between 2 sizes then chose the larger size. A bit slightly to big is better than one that is too small.

 

[JAX]

Thank you!

What has happened to our "like" button???

 

[paintponylvr]

YES, I miss the "like" button too.

I am quite possibly one of the ones' whom you've seen pics posted of young horse(s) in harness/bits and/or line/ground driving. I've posted a few over the years - some have been of foals still on their dams. The last one, a 2011 colt that was still out with his dam at the time, but weaned, generated a TON of personal emails that berated me, put me down and generally told me how wrong or bad I was for being so MEAN, INHUMANE and so UN-HORSEMAN like etc, etc. Between that and life issues, I really slowed down not only our training w/ our personal ponies but simply had little time to train our ponies - but also sharing any pictures I may have had with those same young ponies/horses and haven't had anyone to take pictures at all this year...

That said - I personally find that when you only have one foal is when there COULD be a problem with doing too much (and yes, we did face that ourselves in the past). It's much easier to do a little, in short sessions, when you have more than one you can be working with at one time. Having more to train/work with really limits the amount of time you spend with each one - and the younger they are, the better that can be as it enforces short, easy sessions.

Now I find time/effort is limited by current job as well as my own condition. I can't stay outside and work a horse for an extended period after spending the past year in an office job where my butt is in a chair almost the full 10 hours of my work time. I'm NOT in the same condition I was just two short years ago (though I'm at the same weight - too heavy).

I HAVE found that a pony (especially) and Arabs have a tendency to be "pushy" and "mouthy" - not all by any means but some. I have made a "hanger" headstall that held a bit and had it on foals as young as 2 months of age - to keep little mouths busy and to keep them from chewing on the lead ropes they were tied with or chewing on saddle strings, etc. The two that I did this with the most (1 a colt - gelded at 2 months of age, 1 a filly) are both still always into mischief, chewing/tasting things (DO NOT leave a good leather halter or bridle hanging where either can get to them - that gelding at 10 yrs of age destroyed an expensive bridle when at a 2 day event w/ his young rider who mistakenly left her bridle hanging next to the stall door at the event) - it worked for us! The mare - was never "treated" or really hand fed when we owned her, but even to this day anything sticking out on your person (even an edge of a shirt pocket hanging loose), she will/wants to investigate it and if you didn't enforce her being away from you she would literally remove whatever she could get her teeth on (I had several shirts minus pockets for several years, LOL). She never bit a person, nor came after you w/ her teeth. She and the gelding were out of very different mares (size, breed, personality) but by the same sire - and he was also a bit "mouthy" and when tied w/ just a halter could always get out of it (I started using collars in 1995 due to him).

We didn't attach reins to the bit, we didn't direct the foal/young horse w/ the bit. It literally just "hung there". I DO believe in introducing foals and yearlings to equipment that they can wear, carry or stand with. HOWEVER, I've found that you have to be careful showing that to "newbies" to horses as for some reason that seems to mean that they are then to be WORKED w/ said equipment (OR they tell others that they ARE being worked w/ that equipment). There is a HUGE difference in "introducing" and "desensitizing" to equipment and future work requirements and ACTUALLY WORKING.

**********

I had a guy "shadowing" us for a year or so. I answered his questions when they came up. He had his own way of interpreting what I said. He saw us introducing a harness to a weanling (and had a yearling colt at home). Didn't pay any attention to the very small amount of time that colt spent wearing the harness and being led/line driven around or the fact that we didn't hook him to anything AND it wasn't his first time being handled (LESS time then it took our daughter to groom the colt before the "work" - total time being out of the pasture was less than 45 minutes - groomed before harness & BATHED w/ soap & rinses after harness). The guy was so excited and I thought nothing of it (except how neat it was that he was so "into this"). Several days later, over the weekend, I get a frantic phone call. His colt is "down" and won't get up and "parts" of his body are "all swolled up" (how that guy said it!!). He finally admitted that the day before, since he was off work, he'd worked with his colt. He didn't jsut work with him, but he worked the "snot" out of him! He eventually stated that he was out with that colt for HOURS and that he "was doing so well, that I just kept going"... The colt lived in a fairly small pen that didn't allow a lot of room for doing extended trots or canter/gallops - yet he lounged (after he "knocked him down a few times" since he wouldn't "go") him for a long, long time and then took him down the road to the church. Not the one just across the road and two houses down but the other one - round trip 6 miles (OMG!). He was still "doing so well", that he hitched him to (he didn't have a tire or a drag - maybe a good thing?) an aluminum ladder. When it clanked, rattled - the colt took off but it didn't last long (hmm...think he was tired?) and once he was "quiet" he continued to "ground drive" him.... I CRIED when I got off the phone. I dragged my feet about going to "help" him (he didn't want to call the vet - he wanted my "expert" opinion of what was wrong). I did go over and since he wouldn't call the vet - I DID. The colt was treated for "stess colic" and general swelling. He was "stocked up" not in one leg but all 4 - to the point that the skin was wanting to split on two of his poor, poor legs. The vet bill was smaller than many we've had but that owner was in shock and peeved AT ME - ranting about how I caused it, etc etc. I left before the vet got done treating the colt - I didn't have just 2 minis - I had 34 equine at the time I needed to care for. Later the owner showed up at our place (we are only 3.8 miles away - NOT FAR ENOUGH away) ranting and raving - my hubby got up out of bed, he works nights, and came out with a rifle and told the guy he'd better leave... sigh. He, the owner, had a rough time for a week with that colt but he's healed and is a great colt. Honestly, it was the best baby this guy could have lucked into having - a quiet, willing and accepting personality. Lucky for the owner that the colt wasn't a conniving, aggressive colt - or there would/could have been very different results. Today, that colt is a sweet and very nice driving gelding - 4 years of age - for just down the road. He knows nothing of driving "on the bit', collection or extension - he just "goes" since the owner states - "...ah well, I don't need all that crazy "show stuff"...). This past spring, the owner again called me, he wanted me to go driving with him (NO, he wanted me to haul him and his two minis to a driving event since he doesn't have a truck and trailer). He then told me how long this drive was and I simply told him that I COULD NOT GO as I had NOTHING in condition to do that length of driving. "WHAT???, you just HARNESS and DRIVE yours, don't you???" "NO, I don't. And I haven't had the chance to CONDITION any of mine this past winter - so NO, I'm not going and NO I'm not taking your horses for you. One of your other "buddies" can" - I hung up on him when he started lamenting that he couldn't get ahold of any of his "buddies" (to include a trainer that was "better" than me - wonder why he no longer talks to this owner?)... I had taken his phone number out of my phone years ago - but put it back in so that I KNOW when it's him calling me (doesn't happen as often now, TG).

Sorry for the rant... that guy is behind me somewhere in some of these pics below...

**********

I do have many photos of babies going out and about. I do believe it's a good thing to work with babies in short sessions but I still have a tendency to "sneer" when someone mentions literally only 5 - 15 minutes. THEN, I had a friend time what I do and GUESS WHAT?? I found that I, too, only spend 5-15 minutes "working" with the ponies! I never, TRULY, realized that. Average, REALLY, ends up being 10 minutes... what a revelation that was to me. The winter that I was "working" 3 long yearlings/early 2 yr olds (bdays in may/june - it was Dec/Jan) - I only added an hour of time to my chore schedule on the days I worked them - yet I was ground driving EACH of them in and out of our barn, around obstacles in the growing dark, over the drainage ditch at the rear barn door, past their herd mates tied/eating at their buckets and out the front of the barn down the short hill and across the ditch into our driveway, over the bridge and back to the barn. I found that I averaged going in/out each door 2x each session for each pony. That extra hour included enough grooming of their winter coats to untangle manes/tails, clean their hooves and knock dirt/sand/feed off of the areas I was putting the surcingle and bridle, extending the tied up lines, putting my gloves back on and picking up the whip before asking them to "step off", putting the lines back up and removing/hanging the equipment back up while I "groomed" the next one. Sorry, I don't have ANY pics of that - but here is a pic of the two yearlings this summer (who have had very little handling and NO WORK at all!) in two of the positions I had those others in ...

That little bit of red above Dandy's head, in the unused hay rack, is a plastic coffee can - with a curry comb, stiff brush, hair brush (human type) and hoof pick in it. That is used to "knock the dirt off" - not a full grooming kit.

and yes, here is a weanling 1/2 shetland colt being "worked" in harness. The line IS NOT attached to the bit. This was the 3rd time that the harness was put on him and the 1st/only time I took pics (and one of about 10 sessions before he was 18 months old - we simply have a lot of ponies and our daughter was very busy - she did this 'cuz she took an interest in this particular colt). This is the session that Sierra had him out for a total of 45 minutes - including grooming/intro to clippers before harness put on, bathing w/ soap after "work" and intro to horse trailer as well (pic not on line yet, i'll try to load it later and come back)...

These pics taken 18 September 2011 & he was born 6 April 2011 (so he's 5 months old in the "work" pics).

O dear, this one shows him going over the tarp and past the "trash" in front of the barn...

and here is Sierra with Comet when he was 3 days old... I don't believe either he or his dam, Star, look upset or stressed. And below, if the post will allow me, is a pic of Star as a foal - also with Sierra.

22 June 2001 - Star is 2 months old, has been cameo clipped and Sierra (Sierra's 8th Bday will be in 2months, so she is 7 in this pic) is practicing standing her up for halter as she was shown that weekend in a local open show 2 miles from our pasture (her dam RIDDEN up to the show w/ Star "ponied" at her side)...

 

[paintponylvr]

YES, I handle and work with our babies at very young ages (I do believe in working with them from the time they are born but haven't truly done any of the "imprint training" that I DO believe in). I also believe in having horses around for a VERY LONG TIME and have had ponies/horses JUMPING 3-5' fences w/ adult and large children riding them or doing farm work into their 30's!! THis can not be done if a foal/weanling/yearling is worked with too hard/long at a very young age and it tells me that we have a program that works - for US.

PART of my younger years, I spent in an environment that used horses that ran out on the range. Read a lot of books by actual cowboys and about cowboys - and different styles of range raising and training horses. I have often started riding horses at 18 months of age BUT they grew up out on 100s of acres, were brought in and handled for short times, then TURNED BACK OUT to be horses. It makes a difference. I've often and still "copy" that philosophy - but I haven't had access to 100s of acres since I got back into horses and switched to ponies... I still follow the timelines - working with foals - then no work. Working with the yearlings - then no work - they are allowed to be turned out and be horses! Start long yearlings (18 months or so?) in harness (ponies)/under saddle (riding horses) for about 30-90 days (if you work the horse 4x a week - how many times is that? 52 work sessions in a 90 day period), then turn out/leave alone. Pull out a 2 yr old and do the same thing - starting with checking to see if they remember what we'd done (some ponies DO NOT and you spend time backing up to where they are) and another 90-120 days (3-4 months) of training/schooling/"work". This does NOT a show pony MAKE. I haven't been able to produce a Futurity Baby and probably never could/would. I just don't "train" that way. When I entered the breed show ring in 2012 - I sent my ponies out. I had a hard time wrapping my mind around what was (and wasn't) done with them and still do... I also try to breed/work with a specific personality of pony and recently have had to admit that there are just some I can't/don't do well with. AND in this stage of my life, THAT's OK, too.

I have taken injured horses/ponies and rehabilitated them (they were deemed to be un-ridable or un-usable for anything but pasture poodles by vet(s) using ultrasound, exrays etc. 2 were supposed to be euthanized and yet lived for another 10 & 15 years as riding ponies and broodmares before 1 euthanized and another passing in her sleep) using grooming, massage, chiropractic work and regular conditioning and have brought them to a USING point. I have also euthanized young horses that I felt weren't able to be "saved" and/or were too much $$/work with little quality of life to be doable at the time/situation we were in. I believe in quality of life along with safe handling/training. I also DO NOT believe that every horse/pony can/should be rescued but that's a really bad subject...

AM I PERFECT? NO. I make mistakes. I have been injured and so have some of our horses. We've worked around it and do the best we can to prevent it. I personally find it satisfying to still have some of our horses around in their mid-20s and into their 30's... Even more so is seeing/hearing about the ponies/horses I've sold and the OWNERS contact me back letting me know they still have a pony/horse I bred/raised or bought/trained still going into their 20's and up.

 

[JAX]

Thank you for the info and all the advice!

 

[paintponylvr]

You are welcome for the info that I provided!!

One thing you could do? Take her for walks. Take her around your own property (or wherever you will be driving her originally), then take her out to where you would take her in the future. If there is water on the trails, having her do small jumps across at this stage is fun and exciting - for both of you - but you want her to learn to step quietly into the water and stride right thru. Later, having your cart airborne while she "wildly" leaps across the water is NO FUN for either of you (she could become very sore as the cart lands and tugs backwards against her chest/shoulders) - trust me! You could even be thrown out of the cart in such a scenario - which is in no way fun. But at this age - allow her to gambol or check things out some with her head/neck. Take breaks - her attention span will tell you how long to have her stand still at first, and then you could expand on them by asking her to stay "parked" quietly (no fidgeting) for longer and longer times, before moving on.

Teach her to walk up hill. If the hills are high/steep enough - teach her to allow you to "tail her" (w/o kicking or bucking). In the west, we often dismounted to do steep/long hillsides - and grabbed the horses tail - allowing us to be pulled up the hill. Teach her to walk down hill, too, this could be a true life saver later when introduced to pulling the cart or a wagon downhill w/ you in it.

Start with short "walk-abouts" and build on them. You can do a lot of conditioning that way along with getting her used to calm, steady walk work. Then when you are finally able to drive her - she'll be ready. You know that she has already been out and about, so that can be relaxing for both of you and she will already have built up her condition to go out and about, too! Then you are only introducing one "new" thing at a time and that's pulling the cart.