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So what if Drs have to work harder? Maybe it isnt the time thats the problem, but their education and attitudes. I think we should make it that if you go to the Dr for a problem and they dont fix it, then you, nor insurance, get charged. Just like we expect mechanics etc to do...
I couldn't disagree more.

Since we are not machines that mechanics work on, you cannot expect to always get easy answers and first time fixes.

We want to attract high caliber people to the profession and I don't think that will happen at $150k / year. Not when you sit back and honestly imagine all that is demanded of doctors. That's not enough to make me take on the highest of all responsibilities when it comes to the welfare of others. No way.

It also seems the people most in favor of a socialized system here are the ones who know they will probably be called on to contribute the least (and of course those who don't even actually live here...).
 
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From what I've heard about Obama's proposals, his goal is to get those 47 million people who are currently uninsured into the system and offer them some type of coverage, whether they receive it from employers or through a public health plan.

And that 47 million is as bogus as bogus can be~!



IN THAT 47 million is the 20 million ILLEGALS~!! THEY are counted. What part of Illegal does the president NOT understand.



And another 10 million that for what ever reason do NOT want to have insurance,



Now that brings the total down to 17 million.



AND out of THAT 17 million is ALL the part time students that are working their way through school etc. And would not take insurance in the first place.



Add to that a few more that are just starting working and don't want to take insurance because they think of themselves as invincible~! I NEVER has insurance just starting into the work force nice and young and such.



Now that brings it down to around 5 to 7 million THAT could get assistance if they wanted to have it. Medicaid being one of them.



Leaving very very very few out of that 47 million that are truly uninsured.



We do NOT need a Government Controled Health Care system plain and simple. We have the best health care in the world.



WHY is it then that People from ALL over the world Come HERE to get the Best Care,,, namely The Mayo Clinic??????


 
 
A significant portion of the uninsured are illegal aliens and their children (who in some cases are US citizens). Another significant portion are legal aliens. Higher medical insurance premiums and government support for the uninsured are two more ways that native born American citizens pay for low skilled and low wage immigrants and their children. Hispanics are medically uninsured at two and a half times the rate of whites. The medical uninsurance rate is higher still among illegals and their children. Stop the Hispanic influx and deport all the illegal aliens and the ranks of uninsured would drop by millions and perhaps even by tens of millions.

Some estimates put the ranks of illegals as high as 20 million. Estimates for the rate of increase are around a half million a year. So a lot of the projected increase in medical insurance by 2010 is to support the additional illegal aliens who wll enter the US in the next 5 years and the children who will be born to the illegal aliens who are already here

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/002818.html

And this was the number one site on a Google search 100's of other sites ssay the same thing that out of those 47 million 20 milion are the illegals.

Now to go and find school age folks that are also added into the mix, and this is why after so many years that the liberaL MEDIA HAS BEEN SAYING 47 MILLION, 47 MILLION, are uninsured people tend to beleave that is the truth when it is only a half truth at best. Because they the liberal media don't tell you just WHERE they get the figures from, and whoi is included in the figures. But people beleave the left so much they can't see it in any other light except the truth.
 
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Ah yes here is a nice one about the uninsured Colledge age student and part time workers that they are.:

The Uninsured: College StudentsYou Should Know:

There are more than 45.8 million Americans today without health insurance, a number expected to increase to 56 million within the next decade. As much as 10 percent of the uninsured population is composed of college students.[/b]

Young adults make up the largest age-group of uninsured Americans; nearly one in three of the uninsured are between 18 and 24 years old.
 
Okay, I believe you that there are a large number of 18-24 year olds who are uninsured. I'm in that group and I can tell you that NONE of my friends (most of whom are 22-28 years old) have insurance either. That doesn't mean we don't want it.

The short summary of all the information below: The majority of uninsured people in this country are not here illegally. The majority of uninsured people in this country have expressed a desire to have insurance. A large number (if not a majority) of uninsured people in this country and ineligible for Medicaid and similar programs.

On ages and citizens and so on...some snippets.

http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml

Who are the uninsured?The large majority of the uninsured (80 percent) are native or naturalized citizens.2

The increase in the number of uninsured in 2006 was focused among working age adults. The percentage of working adults (18 to 64) who had no health coverage climbed from 19.7 percent in 2005 to 20.2 percent in 2006.1 Nearly 1.3 million full-time workers lost their health insurance in 2006.

Over 8 in 10 uninsured people come from working families – almost 70 percent from families with one or more full-time workers and 11 percent from families with part-time workers.2

The number of uninsured children in 2007 was 8.1 million – or 10.7 percent of all children in the U.S.1

Young adults (18-to-24 years old) remained the least likely of any age group to have health insurance in 2007 – 28.1 percent of this group did not have health insurance.1

Nearly 40 percent of the uninsured population reside in households that earn $50,000 or more.1 A growing number of middle-income families cannot afford health insurance payments even when coverage is offered by their employers.
Oh, and this list of myth vs. fact from http://www.amsa.org/tnp/articles/article.cfx?id=272

MYTH: Most uninsured are poor, unemployed minorities.
FACT: Most uninsured Americans are employed and Caucasian. Seventy-five percent live in families where at least one person works full time. Twenty percent live in families that have two full-time workers.

MYTH: Young women are at the greatest risk for being uninsured.

FACT: Young men are at the greatest risk. Low-income women are more likely to qualify for Medicaid, which covers pregnant women and heads of single-parent families—usually women.



MYTH: Medicaid covers all poor people.

FACT: Only 41 percent of the poor are covered by Medicaid, which does not cover 26 percent of poor children, 40 percent of poor women and 50 percent of poor men.

MYTH: Poor children are more likely to be uninsured than adults.

FACT: Children are less likely to be uninsured than adults. Medicaid has less restrictive criteria for children than it does for adults. Medicaid only covers adults who are disabled, pregnant, elderly or who take care of dependent children. The federal Children’s Health Insurance Program covers children above Medicaid income eligibility limits but cuts off for those in families earning more than 200 percent of the federal poverty level.

MYTH: Most uninsured children live in families where no one works.

FACT: Seventy-five percent live in families where at least one family member works full time.

MYTH: Most uninsured children live in single-parent households.

FACT: More than half live with both their parents.

MYTH: Poor people who work and don’t get insurance through their employer can still qualify for Medicaid.

FACT: A parent working full time at minimum wage does not qualify for Medicaid in 32 states.

MYTH: People who don’t have health insurance simply don’t want to pay for it.

FACT: Seventy-five percent of uninsured adults say the main reason they are not insured is because they cannot afford the premiums. The uninsured are more than twice as likely to live in households having difficulty paying rent, food and utility bills. For most uninsured, going without insurance is not a preference, but a result of family budget choices.

MYTH: Poor people can use the emergency room if they need health care.

FACT: Many poor uninsured use hospital emergency rooms as their primary source of health care, at great expense to hospitals, which pass the costs on to other patients. Emergency rooms do not provide preventive care. They do not provide dialysis, chemotherapy, medications and other services people with serious illnesses need. Out of pride or fear of debt, many low-income sick people simply do nothing about their condition.



MYTH: People without insurance have adequate access to health care.

FACT: Numerous studies confirm that not having health insurance reduces your access to preventive, primary and specialty care. People without insurance are more likely to live sicker and die younger.

MYTH: Community hospitals and many doctors take care of everyone regardless of ability to pay.

FACT: Community hospitals and many doctors do provide some charity care; however, 15 percent of uninsured pregnant women are refused prenatal care when looking for a provider. Uninsured pregnant women are more than twice as likely not to receive the standard number of prenatal checkups before delivery. Uninsured hospital patients are 29 percent less likely to undergo coronary artery bypass surgery and 45 percent less likely to undergo a hip replacement.

MYTH: People who don’t participate in employer-sponsored insurance just don’t want to pay the premiums.

FACT: Seventy-five percent of low-wage workers who are offered health benefits choose to participate. Most of those who don’t say they can’t afford the premiums.

MYTH: Middle-class workers were hit just hard as the working poor with declines in employer-sponsored coverage.

FACT: Employer-sponsored coverage has declined more for the working poor than middle-class workers. From 1987 to 1996, coverage for the lowest-paid fell from 54 percent to 42 percent. At the same time, coverage for the highest-paid increased from 87 percent to 90 percent.
 
Ah yes here is a nice one about the uninsured Colledge age student and part time workers that they are.:
The Uninsured: College StudentsYou Should Know:

There are more than 45.8 million Americans today without health insurance, a number expected to increase to 56 million within the next decade. As much as 10 percent of the uninsured population is composed of college students.[/b]

Young adults make up the largest age-group of uninsured Americans; nearly one in three of the uninsured are between 18 and 24 years old.
 


Most universities have a student health center. Part of the university fee goes towards that center, where students can go for prescriptions, counseling and primary care visits.


 




wish I could find the name of this documentary I saw a while ago. Someone went around to several of the other countries that have some form of national health care-if I remember right he went to Canada, Japan, England, Germany, and Singapore
 


I believe the documentary you are referring to is Sicko, by Michael Moore.
 
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. As much as 10 percent of the uninsured population is composed of college students.[/b]

Hmm while I do not dispute this most colleges do offer health services for their students. It is very cheap like 50 bucks a semester and offers them the use of the student health center where the visit is just a small co-pay if anything same with standard medications. They also offer birth control and counseling.

Of course not helpful for major illness but does allow for standard medical care
 
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LoweriseMinis said:
Okay, I believe you that there are a large number of 18-24 year olds who are uninsured. I'm in that group and I can tell you that NONE of my friends (most of whom are 22-28 years old) have insurance either. That doesn't mean we don't want it.
If I didn't have a particular something I wanted, didn't think I'd have to personally kick in much if anything to help others get it, but could get it myself at the expense of others who have more than I do... maybe I'd be all "my hand's out" and want it too. Or maybe I'd work harder and/or smarter so I could have the things I want -- since that's what I've always done. Again, it's like those who are most adamant about getting us into a socialized health care situation are those who don't even live in the USA and those who expect to contribute very little from their own pocket to the cost of covering others and are looking forward to getting their "freebies" from Uncle Sam
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And those who already 'have theirs' are the ones who seem to be against it, and nevermind the masses of uninsured or why those people are uninsured, or the people who DIE daily for lack of care. The lack of empathy some people show is astounding to me. I find it very difficult to believe that people who hold these opinions have ever been in the position of the people they're working against.

When this plan comes about, I will happily pay in my fair share. Just as I pay in to state disability and Social Security and unemployment. And those feelings will not change-not if I make $10,000 a year or $100,000 a year or a million a year. Because no matter where I go in life I will both remember where I started, and will not alter my belief that Americans have a fundamental right to be healthy.
 
And those who already 'have theirs' are the ones who seem to be against it, ...
A lot of those who "already have theirs" didn't always "already have theirs". They worked and sacrificed a lot to have what they do and continue to work hard, and smart!

If everyone worked and saved as hard as many if not most of those who "already have theirs", the Nation would be much better off. There is nothing that can be said that will make me understand the mentality of waiting for a handout. To me, that is NOT the American way.

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When this plan comes about, I will happily pay in my fair share... And those feelings will not change-not if I make $10,000 a year or $100,000 a year or a million a year.
I'd love for you to join me in spending about 1/3 of your pay check on income taxes. What you don't seem to get is it's not fair. The harder you work and the more you earn, the the bigger and bigger the percentage is that you must kick in... If we all only had pay 10 or 15% of our incomes in income taxes -- or whatever amount, if we ALL paid the same percentage -- that would be great news from my perspective. Talking about adding more welfare / social benefits (such as "free" healthcare for all) means some of us would have to kick in even more than we already do.
 
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Again, it's like those who are most adamant about getting us into a socialized health care situation are those who don't even live in the USA
If you mean me (for one)—quite honestly at this point in time I have no personal interest in whether or not the US gets universal health care of any sort. As you know, I am not living in the US, even though I am an American citizen. I am merely tired of people on this board trashing Canadian healthcare when they have little or no personal experience with the system. As long as you are trashing our health care, I am going to defend it!

You keep harping about how many Canadians go south of the border for “better” and/or “faster” treatment. For every one that does, there are many more that don’t…yes, even some of those that “can afford it” don’t go south for treatment. Why not? Because they get excellent treatment here, and don’t need to go anywhere else. Of all the people I know who have been seriously ill and required specialized medical care, only 3 have gone to the US for treatment. Of those 3, 2 were happy with the successful treatment they received. The 3rd..well, she died a short time afterward. In truth she didn't do any better than if she had stayed here in Canada for her treatment...in fact for all anyone knows, she might have done better to stay here, because the treatment she went to the US for was not the one the doctors here recommended--she went to the US because she thought the treatment available there was better. She was wrong.

A friend of mine had a daughter with serious kidney problems. They were going to go to a specialist in California—in researching possible treatment, that specialist is the one they came up with. That doctor in California suggested a surgeon in Toronto—because the Toronto surgeon could treat their daughter just as well as he could, and treatment would cost them much less. Imagine—equal quality in Canada!

You don’t always have better doctors down there…I know that, because some of the worst ones we’ve had here have moved south of the border where they can make far more money than they could here. You’re paying top dollar for some doctors that we didn’t want to use….for “free”!! Some of the best ones….have actually stayed right here in Canada. Imagine that!

Canada has even got some great research going on here….and has made some medical breakthroughs. I’m not going to waste my time looking up links to post, because those of you who don’t believe me will just say that you can’t be bothered to open those links and read the articles anyway.

Quite obviously there are some who think Canada’s healthcare is as useless as our armed forces are amusing. I often defend Americans when people here put them down…thank you for reminding my why that defence is necessary all too often!
 
Or maybe I'd work harder and/or smarter so I could have the things I want -- since that's what I've always done.

if everyone worked and saved as hard as many if not most of those who "already have theirs", the Nation would be much better off.
Jill - you always come back to this. You always imply that those of us who cannot afford expensive health care premiums are simply lazy or stupid. Unlike yourself, of course.

That is very insulting, smug and superior - and downright rude.

I work VERY hard, thanks. And that is what I have always done. Imagine that. Responsible for my actions and decisions. Not looking for handouts as you insist. I am also not the stupid git that you imply that anyone in a lower income bracket than yours is. You own your own place and show horses and all - none of which is cheap - and are in a higher income bracket than I am - but it does NOT mean that I do not work hard or am not working "smart". As an aside - a work visa does not allow you to change jobs, have two jobs or even do freelance work on the side. None of that is permitted - so even if I could somehow manage to cram in another part-time job to pay higher healthcare premiums (difficult when your job is basically 24/7) - it would be illegal.

You keep harping about how many Canadians go south of the border for “better” and/or “faster” treatment. For every one that does, there are many more that don’t…yes, even some of those that “can afford it” don’t go south for treatment. Why not? Because they get excellent treatment here, and don’t need to go anywhere else.
minimor - you forget that Canada is a back-asswards place worthy of scorn and ridicule..
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Some Americans even go north of the border to see specific specialists - as a close friend here did.
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As for myself - I can speak from experience with BOTH systems. If I was still living in Canada - I could have had the same treatments as I have had here... the same procedures... and yet from my investment in the healthcare system not have had to drain my bank account to pay for it. There may have been some small payments - but that would be all. And those are the facts. First hand experience. No links needed.

It's like car insurance - you may never have to use it and/or benefit from it - but when you do need it - it is there. No one plans on having a car accident - or getting skin cancer.

However, we never know where life's roads lead us and for all the bad things that happen there is always good to celebrate and cherish. We do the best we can - wherever we are. Even if we are not smart enough or hard-working enough as defined by those who do not walk in our shoes...
 
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I'd love for you to join me in spending about 1/3 of your pay check on income taxes. What you don't seem to get is it's not fair. The harder you work and the more you earn, the the bigger and bigger the percentage is that you must kick in... If we all only had pay 10 or 15% of our incomes in income taxes -- or whatever amount, if we ALL paid the same percentage -- that would be great news from my perspective. Talking about adding more welfare / social benefits (such as "free" healthcare for all) means some of us would have to kick in even more than we already do.
Welcome to America, Jill.
 
minimor - you forget that Canada is a back-asswards place worthy of scorn and ridicule..
I did forget that, just for a minute there--my bad!
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I guess I don't watch the right news channel to remind me of that fact.
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You know Jill, what about those people in this country who have worked harder and longer than you have and suddenly find themselves without their jobs, their homes, and yes, now have no health care coverage. That could be any of us, even you. Companies have gone bankrupt and with it have taken away the retirement income that people worked all their life for. Many people are facing hardships they never thought would happen to them. There are no perfect solutions to any problem but the cost of health care in this country is outrageous and many people that once enjoyed the luxury of being able to afford private health care are now having to do without. If you don't want to think about those who may not be in your "league", then think about those that are and who are now in the poorhouse.
 
A lot of those who "already have theirs" didn't always "already have theirs". They worked and sacrificed a lot to have what they do and continue to work hard, and smart!
If everyone worked and saved as hard as many if not most of those who "already have theirs", the Nation would be much better off. There is nothing that can be said that will make me understand the mentality of waiting for a handout. To me, that is NOT the American way
THis is something that really bothers me. I once had an excellent job, hated it but how many 18 year olds were makeing 60,000 a year. I had everything I wanted, could had no problem paying for excellent coverage. Then things went bad. Lost my job and have been with out any for about 2 and a half years. I have been worked hard for over a year to find a decent job. What money I do have come in does not go for imedical coverage as I have a family to care for and other bills to pay.

I do not take hand outs unless I am at my last straw. YOu dont know how much it almost killed us to have to get WIC. Something we never wanted and have a very hard time useing but do know it has been very helpfull to us, for what they provide is huge and the main things we go through.

Because I do not have a job does not make me any less of a hard worker than you are any less smart than you. You happen to be in a good line of work and haveing it owned by family helps you keep your job. I would bet thousands of those unemployed people would love to give you an ear full.

Second related to a totally different post.......I really really doubt any of those people with out insurrance dont really want it. I do not get sick often. IN the 2.5 years I havent had any coverage I have been sick to the point of needing a doctor 2 times. HOwever, if given a option I would gladly pay my premiums to have it. THe bills are crazy high when I do get sick and I do worry about what will happen if I have something serious happen.

Most universities have a student health center. Part of the university fee goes towards that center, where students can go for prescriptions, counseling and primary care visits.
I have looked at several universities as well as the two I have actually attended and NONE of them have this.
 
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Wow...Jill that is the most ignorant thing I have read in a very, very long time. It frustrates me to no end to think people are still that ignorant. It is comments and attitudes such as the ones you have just expressed that give Americans a very bad reputation worldwide. We know you're not all that bad but it's the bad apples that plant the seed.

I am Canadian but have experienced the Canadian, British and American healthcare systems. The only reason I have not moved into the states is because of the US healthcare system at present. If it were different I would live there in a shot because it's a beautiful country that I adore.

I am someone who has quite a lot of experience with the Canadian healthcare system. In my younger years I have had cat scans, MRIs, x-rays, biopsies, five surgeries many doctor and ER visits and the list goes on and on. I know that if I lived in the US I would be beyond broke from all my medical bills. Thankfully here in Canada it is essentially free! I feel that EVERY HUMAN BEING has the RIGHT to healthcare! I have always received amazing care while being treated in Canada. The longest I ever waited for a surgery was three weeks and that was because it was a non-important one and that was the closest date that I could get into MY schedule. For my most major surgery (a nearly 4hour surgery) I only waited 5 days. If I had wanted to I could have gone to a private clinic with the exact same doctor and had it done the next day. That would have cost me I believe around $15,000CAD but the Dr was able to get me in the next week. Private clinics are available in certain parts of Canada (such as where I live) and the option of more is being explored. The longest I wait to get a doctor's appointment is usually about four days and that will be if it's an appointment for say a prescription renewal...something very unimportant. If it is something important I will get into the doctors office the same day I phone. Wait times at hospitals can be a bit long but generally only if you have something "minor" i.e. a broken arm is less important than a heart attack or a stabbing. Things are prioritized by who is going to die first and that's the way it should be. I think the longest I've ever waited in ER is about four hours and that was when I knew I had a bladder infection turning into a kidney infection. I was in a lot of pain but once again I was less important than the people who came in after me that were bleeding extreme amounts everywhere! I have no problem suffering in pain when I know that I will live when there are people coming into ER that will not live. That being said when something "bad" is happening you are taken in RIGHT away. I went in with breathing/chest wall troubles and was seen as soon as I walked in the door. The same goes for when my mum suspected she had a heart attack...(which she had) she was seen to within 5seconds of walking in the door. The people who complain about long wait times are generally those who are those "non life threatening people" and lets face it some people just can't accept that some things are more important than they are.

I have experienced the US healthcare system as well. The wait times were comparable to the Canadian wait times; the doctors and nurses were comparable to Canadian doctors and nurses. Everything about it was exactly the same except the cost. I could not BELIEVE the money I had to pay for my experiences. Luckily it was all insured so we were reimbursed but wow...they basically charge you for the tissue you use to blow your nose with! A friend had a heart attack while in Montana and luckily his company paid for it but it would have cost him $80,000 for his treatment. That is absolutely ridiculous!

My American family has the advantage of having insurance. However they realize that there are millions of people who can't afford basic medical coverage. That is absolute junk.

I try my best to not go to the Doctor unless I absolutely have to...for instance I avoided going to the doctor for over a month when I separated my ribs (tore the cartilage from them). I also avoided going to the doctor for two weeks while I coughed up blood. HOWEVER I have the knowledge that should I have to go to the doctor I can go whenever I want to. I don't have the weight of MONEY hanging over my head. Do I feed my children dinner for the next month or do I go to the doctor? Do I get that lump checked out which could lead to me living on the streets because of the bills? I watch my children die because I can't afford their treatment. That is a reality many American's face and it is NOT FAIR. Anyone who thinks it is fair for people to suffer that way is a disgusting human being, the lowest of the low.

Those that make more money deserve to be taxed more on it. It is irritating but it's a fact of life to help the world go around. To tax someone who makes $10,000 a year the same as someone who makes $100,000 a year is REDICULOUS and makes ZERO sense. Greed is a disgusting virtue.

Many, many people work very hard all their lives but still are not able to make enough money to live comfortably or afford insurance. Things happen to people, health crisis, unseen financial crisis (SUCH AS HAVING TO PAY FOR MEDICAL TREATMENTS!!!!!!!), job loss, pay cuts, disability, pregnancy, low paying wages etc.

I'm not saying the US needs Canada's healthcare system because let's be realistic every healthcare system in the world has it's flaws but the US certainly needs something where EVERYSINGLE PERSON IN YOUR COUNTRY RECEIVES MEDICAL CARE SHOULD THEY NEED IT WITHOUT THE FEAR OF LOSING THEIR LIVES!!!!!!!!

I know this post seems quite negative but it just frustrates me immensely that so many people suffer needlessly.
 
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In addition, since we were talking about choices...

The wealthy have made the choice to be wealthy, I'm assuming. That's fine, trust me! I don't begrudge anyone for their money as long as it was gained legally and fairly. However, by pushing yourself into that income bracket, you accept certain responsibilities. One of those responsibilities is the increase in taxes you pay. Higher taxes for the wealthy is nothing new. No one can say they got rich and then said "Oh wait-I didn't know about these taxes!"

A person making $20,000 a month might pay that 35% in taxes, only leaving them with $13,000 that month. Those people are still not going to struggle to pay their rent or feed their kids.

A person making $800 a month who's being asked to pay that same percentage is only going to have $520 after taxes. That person is going to struggle to pay their rent or feed their kids.

A flat tax would ask those with less to give more, and when you're talking about that much less, you're sending nearly an entire class of people into poverty.

If you're in that higher tax bracket, think of it as your way of paying back the great country that has made your success possible.
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