Big-Moving Minis Must Go ...

[stormy]

So here is my resume' since some are assuming if we don't all strive for Park horses in our breeding program we don't know what a Park horse is!

I worked with arabian horses and hackney ponies part time while in high school, got a degree in animal science with an emphasis on horse farm management, worked on a quarter horse farm while in school then worked on a very well known arabian farm in california as an internship my last year at the university, rode several top notch park horses there. After graduation I worked with Standardbred racehorses for several years, starting and schooling colts. Then moved to a combined standardbred and arabian farm, back to riding park horses and some english pleasure horses. In the meantime I owned a quarterhorse I showed mostly dressage, some hunter. Just before joining Peace Corp I worked for one of the top miniature horse breeders in Michigan...was totally won over! In Peace Corp I rode nearly daily either Criollo horses or Andalusians...have seen a lot of movement. When I came back I decided to raise minis...then some classic shetlands. Liked the minis better in the end and sold out of the shetlands a few years ago.

I can tell the differance between a western horse, country pleasure, pleasure and Park. Just as when I was working with Arabs I could identify a Western Pleasure horse, Hunt seat horse, English pleasure horse and Park horse....Funny, looks like four divisions there too...oh yes and a fifth...dressage. Would be absolutely terrific to add Dressage driving to Nationals also. I think there is room and talent enough for all these divisions. With some driving classes having better then 50 entries I think it is time to open things up to allow new opportunities! And as stated before there is no reason that Park in the miniature registry needs to look like Park in the Saddlebred registry or Hackney registry or any other registry. That division will evolve as well.

(and I do find it fairly insulting to be told the reason I don't want all minis to move like hackneys is because I am uneducated about horses and don't know any better!

)

 

[horsefeather]

Bob, I applaud you for coming on here and voicing your opinion. Lisa, I agree with both you and Bob. I'm sure I'll get smacked for this, but I am getting just a little, teeny bit tired that everything will be solved if the stewards did their job. I truly think that those of you that are complaining about the stewards and judges should apply for either/or your judging/steward cards.

I'll tell you right now folks would be on here saying how bad a job you did as a steward and/or judge! You CANNOT please everyone, period!

I also hate the way the 'big movers' are taking over the Pleasure Class. Personnaly, I like the way they moved 5 years ago. I could drive one then, but so many of today's 'Pleasure' horses are too hot for me. I'm just too old. We have a Hall of Fame driving horse and I could handle him just fine.

Another thing some of you are missing is the 'training' of these high steppers. Quite a few (NO, NOT ALL OF THEM) are wearing a number of different attachments on their feet. I have always said, and I really believe, that a horse should be natural. If you could see some of the things that make the high steppers step the way they do, and not care, then there is no hope for you!! Believe me or not, I have seen with my own eyes several things that are being done and if that was the only way I could get my horse to step like that I just wouldn't show him. Saying they are just being enhanced is like a palomino is being enhansed dyed black.

I don't know the answer either, wish I did. I DO, however, have to agree that the judges should read the rulebooks more. When I ask hubby why he placed a certain horse the way he did, the answer is always the same: "He/she was the best horse out there." Until the judges begin penalizing the high headed, high stepping horse that when asked to back wants to rear over backwards, they will continue and actually, I believe, will get worse.

JMHO

Pam

 

[dannigirl]

I have not read all the post to this thread, but maybe the answer would be to add more classes to the park harness division bringing the number of class options more in line with the other divisions,rather than add another division. Also, Maybe there should be more difinitive classifications for the driving divisions we now have. This may be a way to have a place for the high steppers without adding a new division....

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I agree something needs to happen but I don't agree with adding a whole new division. Right now it stands for Pleasure Driving that excessive movement should not be penalized, that just means any high stepping horse can go in. They need to rewrite the rules for Pleasure that will make those high moving horses to go into the park class. Plain and simple.

 

[horsehug]

Stormy,

I do not drive in shows anymore and have no opinion about all the classes being debated or argued.

But Wow! I for one am very impressed with your resume!!

You have really done a lot with horses, and educationally also!

Thanks for posting it!

Susan O.

 

[Sanny]

Bob, I applaud you for coming on here and voicing your opinion. Lisa, I agree with both you and Bob. I'm sure I'll get smacked for this, but I am getting just a little, teeny bit tired that everything will be solved if the stewards did their job. I truly think that those of you that are complaining about the stewards and judges should apply for either/or your judging/steward cards.

I'll tell you right now folks would be on here saying how bad a job you did as a steward and/or judge! You CANNOT please everyone, period!

I also hate the way the 'big movers' are taking over the Pleasure Class. Personnaly, I like the way they moved 5 years ago. I could drive one then, but so many of today's 'Pleasure' horses are too hot for me. I'm just too old. We have a Hall of Fame driving horse and I could handle him just fine.

Another thing some of you are missing is the 'training' of these high steppers. Quite a few (NO, NOT ALL OF THEM) are wearing a number of different attachments on their feet. I have always said, and I really believe, that a horse should be natural. If you could see some of the things that make the high steppers step the way they do, and not care, then there is no hope for you!! Believe me or not, I have seen with my own eyes several things that are being done and if that was the only way I could get my horse to step like that I just wouldn't show him. Saying they are just being enhanced is like a palomino is being enhansed dyed black.

I don't know the answer either, wish I did. I DO, however, have to agree that the judges should read the rulebooks more. When I ask hubby why he placed a certain horse the way he did, the answer is always the same: "He/she was the best horse out there." Until the judges begin penalizing the high headed, high stepping horse that when asked to back wants to rear over backwards, they will continue and actually, I believe, will get worse.

JMHO

Pam

Pam I have to agree with you and also say that I get tired of people complaining about the stewards and the judges because I personally think both are extremely difficult jobs and we should all appreciate the people that are willing to put themselves out there and do it. I have yet to see a steward or a judge that hasn't been trying to just do the best job that they possibly can and are putting in long hours for very little compensation and a whole lot of grief.

I do also want to bring up our horse Zeb, who won several national titles at both Congress and AMHR Nationals. I'd love for you to have the opportunity to drive him sometime. He is so much fun and I know you'd have a blast. He isn't as fancy and refined as some of the other pleasure horses but he is a fast mover and is also considered one of the "high steppers" out there but his movement and action is completely natural and I am very proud of that fact.

His feet are also trimmed in the manner that is best for his comfort and soundness and not trimmed to have an effect on his stride or driving action. We were told when we were taking him to Congress that we would have to put shoes and/or plates on him and would have to use artificial enhancements in order to be competitive. We chose not to -- mostly because we don't have a clue about how to do any of that and so far we've pretty much done things on our own without a trainer -- and he managed to more than hold his own against the other ponies.

He also isn't a "hot" horse by any stretch of the imagination. He won multiple championships and reserve championships in classes ranging from lead line with a 4 year old to obstacle to pleasure driving to roadster. At AMHR and Congress, he won driving classes with our 8 year old, 13 year old and 15 year old in youth and then had wins in amateur and open classes. He was slow and steady and careful for the 8 year old who is a rather tentative driver and then stepped it up and gave more for the older kids and then REALLY stepped up for my husband and I when we asked him for it.

As far as the current pleasure horses being hot or hard to handle I think some of it comes from pent-up energy, what feed and supplements are given to them, etc. -- not from the horses actual personality. I need my horses to be calm and able to be safely handled by kids so the kids are around them all the time and I am careful about what I feed and even during the show season all of our horses are turned outside together and only stalled when fed or the night before we leave for a show. They do a lot of running and playing and interacting and usually get to eat hay outside together as a herd and I think all of that has a good effect on their mentality. I'm not likely to win any halter championships with any of our horses anytime soon (at Nationals someone jokingly asked if Zeb was a pregnant broodmare) but they are easy to handle and they've got stamina, a lot of heart, a lot of endurance and great attitudes and are usually pretty calm.

Andrea (Disneyhorse) also makes an excellent point in that the breed is simply evolving and changing and most people that drive these days do want a horse with more action and movement. That sort of horse also is going to usually stand out in the show ring and catch the eye of the judges. I know how much fun it is to drive a horse like Zeb myself and how much I enjoy watching others drive him and I'd like more horses like him with his movement, talent, heart and personality.

 

[horsefeather]

Mary,

Thanks for your comments. I know your horse and never thought he has been 'enhanced' as he does look natural. I also really like him. I had a 1/2 QH and 1/2 Arab once that was like your 'Zeb' (funny, that was Curt's dad's name

) Anyway, this mare handled different depending on the rider. I think, though, they are rare and if someone has the luck to have one own you during one's lifetime, they are very, very lucky.

As for your horses not being 'hot.' I like the way you treat them. I agree that lot's of times the horses are 'made' hot by us wonderful humans!

I would be delighted to drive your horse someday. He does look like he is a lot of fun. And, like you said, he really puts out for you and Bob. But as I said in my previous post, unfortunately he isn't the 'norm.' If people would stop using 'enhancing' things and let the truly natural horse show then maybe there would be more horses like your 'Zeb.' Hopefully, maybe some folks will actually breed those good traits into more horses that are not only pretty to watch, but are actually calm and easily handled.

Pam

P.S. Thanks for the vote of confidence for the stewards and judges. I realize that some of them are not doing a good job, but hopefully most of them/us are and really care about their job. AND, big congrats for all youall did at Nationals!!

 

[LaVern]

I think that most will breed for the extreme. The heavy horses have gotten so big that they get tired just carrying them selves, The Quarters have such a small foot that they can't do a days work. The Arabs bred for such a long neck that the backs have gotten long too.

That is just what we do.

When Larry decided to bring in the Roadster In Hand -I call it the Woop Um Up Class-It was just the beginning. In a few short years the Judges dared to pull out a few and asked them to pretty much work at the rail. Oh, man it was fun to watch, but what if they had asked them each to do a trick. Who could do the best trick. Who says that high lifting legs are better than say knowing how to bow down or count to ten with their hoofs.

 

[maestoso]

Do you realize that we once addressed this issue by creating country verses pleasure? And again when we included western country. The issue you are trying to address is not unique. Adding more classes might be a quick fix, but soon someone will complain that yet another is needed. Excuse my frankness, but it all comes down to someone feeling like they can't compete, they can't win. "I can't win so I need a new class where I can!" NO! The answer is, "I can't win so I need a new horse more appropriate to the current level and trends, or I need train harder to work up to that." Should we add a stocky/western halter class too? How about a halter class specifically for horses with short necks? That way everyone has a chance to win!

 

[LaVern]

Hey, maybe I am on to something. Maybe the driving horses have to do more stuff. One of the best driving trainers and judges that I know always says that it is manners first, in the country driving. Maybe the horses have to do something else to prove they have manners. Like stand still while the driver gets out to check tires, I don't know something else.

 

[dreaminmini]

I am fairly new to this showing game. This was my second year going to Nationals. I have watched some of the various driving classes. I feel that SOME of the horses out there were definitely in the wrong class. But they were rewarded by the judges. Probably because they stood out from the rest that were using the more correct movement and so it would seem less animated. How about more defined/specific guidelines for each of the driving classes so the judges have more concrete guidelines to follow?

But I have also heard that many horses drop down a level for Nationals. So Pleasure drops to Country and Country drops to Western. Where does the Western go? Maybe we should institute a rule that states whatever driving classes you compete in during the show season is what you have show in at Nationals. For example by June 30 (allowing you time to figure out where your horse fits) you should have to pick your driving class and stick with it for the rest of the show season or at the very least you would have to follow through and show in those driving classes at Nationals. So if you show Country Pleasure you compete in Country Pleasure at Nationals. Same goes for Pleasure. Just my 2 cents if it's worth that

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Hey, maybe I am on to something. Maybe the driving horses have to do more stuff. One of the best driving trainers and judges that I know always says that it is manners first, in the country driving. Maybe the horses have to do something else to prove they have manners. Like stand still while the driver gets out to check tires, I don't know something else.

Its called Reinsmanship. That would be a awesome class to add to atleast the local shows. I know the OK shows offered it this year as a NR class. I hope they have it next year and I'll put my horse in it. If those who don't know its basiclly like a showmanship class only for driving, you also have to perform certain maneurvers off and/or on the rail.

You know I have got to ask what would make these big-moving minis go to this new class when they won't go to Park? Why add a whole new divison where I don't see them going into it when they are kicking butt in Pleasure? I am totally against the idea of adding a whole new division before we fix the rules for Pleasure. Lets make that class as detailed as we did for Western.

 

[kaykay]

Bob I adore you and your family and think you guys are a great asset to ASPC/AMHR.

Usually I agree with you but just cant on this one.

Whether or not there were ASPC/AMHR horses wouldnt matter, its still going to evolve and change and get more extreme. I remember a close friend of mines stallion winning CP Nationals class years ago. People screamed and threw a fit that he "was too big of a mover and too hot" He did not have ASPC papers and in fact was all A breeding. It should have been my friends glory day but instead she was in tears of people tearing her horse apart. Obviously the judges thought he was the winner. Could he compete today? No. But all those years ago he was considered too extreme by the people/horses he beat. Its constantly changing.

I worry that eventually we are going to have the purple polka dotted class division just to be sure everyone wins.

 

[drivinghoss]

I dont believe that enchancing a driving horse's movement is any more cruel than tying a halter horse's head up high to develop his neck or withholding water from halter horses so they will be tucked up for a class.

I agree that manners should be the most important thing in a Country class.

Pleasure horses should have a brillance about them.

No matter how horses move, the fact that people are passionate about their love for their horse makes the AMHR a great place to show. It takes all kinds of horses to make for a great registry.

I love my 28" horse who can barely trot over dandelions as much as my 38" park harness horse, because they both try their hardest and make my day better by being horses.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Its funny I had to add, my friend has or had this 35" Pleasure Driving mare. Her movement was awesome, but she wasn't so good on manners. Even the judges said next year she should be unbeatable. My friend broke this horse, she was like a million dollars, then you take her to Nationals now all of the sudden she is a Country Pleasure horse. Her manners were there but her movement dropped. If she switched her I think she could have been a National calibar horse in Country. So in Pleasure horses do you have to sacrifice manners for movement?

 

[Mominis]

In coming to the minis, I was surprised not to see a Fine Harness division. The Fine Harness horse wouldn't have the brilliance of the park horse, but would have bigger motion than seen in Pleasure. Would this be a direction that AMHR could go to solve this movement issue?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

In coming to the minis, I was surprised not to see a Fine Harness division. The Fine Harness horse wouldn't have the brilliance of the park horse, but would have bigger motion than seen in Pleasure. Would this be a direction that AMHR could go to solve this movement issue?

Perhaps they should just rename the class and put it as fine harness. I really don't understand the rules for Park, all I know is hardly anybody goes in it and you don't see that many horses that actually belong in that class and are in it.

 

[JWC sr.]

Evolution is the natural process of everything, while I agree that a horse needs to be in the proper class for the style and type of movement they have. Limiting the breed is not something that we want to do simply from the standpoint of breeding horses with fluid, graceful and functional movement should be a goal of all of us.

Puttering around the ring with a very limited range is none of those things I mentioned above.

I think there is a two fold correction that can be made and have positive consequences as versus negative ones.

1. A better description of what each type horse is supposed to be, IE: why a horse is is a pleasure horse as versus a country horse, etc etc.

2. Instruct our judges to not place horses that are too extreme for that particular class whatever it is. Also make sure they understand and adhere to the standards we as a breed set up. If not have a set of relational penalties for non-adherence.

Those two simple things will over a relatively short period of time teach people, judges and breeders what we as a registry and breed are looking for.

 

[Yaddax3]

Evolution is the natural process of everything ...

I wholeheartedly agree about evolution within AMHR.

A few years ago, we evolved into adding a Western Country Pleasure class so minis that weren't upheaded and didn't have the action to compete at the highest level of a Country Pleasure class had someplace to go.

I see the addition of a Pleasure Driving class for the big moving high steppers as evolution, also. We need to evolve to a place where, just as we found a spot for Western Country Pleasure horses at one end of the driving spectrum, we find a spot for the high steppers at the other end.

I don't want to get to the point where there are a half dozen or maybe a dozen high steppers in Pleasure Driving Over and 100 minis in a Country Pleasure Driving class at AMHR Nationals. But that is what we face because I believe all these Pleasure Driving minis without high-knee and hock action will move into Country. It already is happening.

Like I said in an earlier post, I'm not worried about competing in Pleasure Driving Over, whether it remains status quo or goes to a class for high steppers. I've already got my high stepper, and he's a darn good one. I'm worried about what the ripple effect will be.

 

[muffntuf]

Could you imagine having to split a driving class into thirds? 100 entries?