heathers124
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Here is the picture of my driving gelding, I'm sorry the image didn't show up the first time! Critique would be appreciated
Any Critique?
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Here is the picture of my driving gelding, I'm sorry the image didn't show up the first time! Critique would be appreciated
heathers124
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This is his extended trot, and I don't really know how to tell if his hindquarters are engaged properly, or if he should be driving more from his rear end. I have heard that his head is not needing to be collected while at an extended trot and that he needs have his head and neck out for more extension. Its hard to tell from one picture but how does his form look and what should I work on? :S
MiLo Minis
Well-Known Member
I would look at shortening your back strap a little to bring the saddle back away from his elbows. You can see the tugs are hanging straight and the saddle is forward of the tugs, it should be under the tugs a bit back from his withers.
I assume this is a young or early in his career driving horse, they do tend to need to reach out with their neck to balance themselves when moving faster. He seems to be quite relaxed but at the beginning of understanding extension and could use a lot more impulsion from behind. His back will be rounder, his buttocks lower and his neck more arched once he actually achieves extension. I would work on getting him to come on the bit more by pushing him up into the bridle and asking him to drop his nose which will help round his back and enable him to use his haunches. In extension you are asking him to stretch or lengthen his stride and keep the same rhythm rather than just get faster.
I assume this is a young or early in his career driving horse, they do tend to need to reach out with their neck to balance themselves when moving faster. He seems to be quite relaxed but at the beginning of understanding extension and could use a lot more impulsion from behind. His back will be rounder, his buttocks lower and his neck more arched once he actually achieves extension. I would work on getting him to come on the bit more by pushing him up into the bridle and asking him to drop his nose which will help round his back and enable him to use his haunches. In extension you are asking him to stretch or lengthen his stride and keep the same rhythm rather than just get faster.
heathers124
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Thankyou so much, this is exactly the kind of advice I was wanting! He is actually about 13 years old, but I am just starting to get his driving going well
What are some ways I can work him or exercises I can do to get the nose down and make him work from behind? Some people say to use an overcheck and martingale but I would rather find a way of doing it more naturally. He is the type of horse that will get upset if you are too hard with him, but is very willing to learn.
MiLo Minis
Well-Known Member
In the exercise ring at home you should first look for relaxation. Do big ovals and large circles, sweeping changes of rein - no sharp corners. Once he is relaxed and working at a regular rhythm (this could take 10 minutes or 10 days or longer although I would say your horse is already fairly relaxed in harness so should only take a warm up which can vary from horse to horse and day to day in the length of time) start working on tighter figures - smaller circles, serpentines, more correct corners asking him to bend and encouraging him by touching his inside with the whip, using half halts to bring him back on his haunches before the corners and gently massaging his mouth with your hands. If you aren't sure what you should be doing with your hands, sliding side reins can help with this. Once he is relaxed and bent start asking for changes of gait - walk to trot, trot to walk, halt to walk, halt to trot, back 3 or 4 steps and walk, back 3 or 4 steps and trot. This will help rock him back on his haunches and get him on the bit. Be sure to use half halts to help him make the transitions smoothly. Once he is working well at the working trot you can start asking him for changes of gait at the trot - slow and fast. I find spiralling circles are good for this - stay on the circle but gradually make it smaller and slower and then larger and faster with each round. You can then come out of your circle onto the long straightaway and ask for extension by pushing him into the bridle with your voice and whip if necessary and using your hands to contain the energy. If all goes well (which it won't for some time
) you will feel his shoulders lift, his butt hunker down and he will get very light in your hands - it's like flying!
One of my favorite ways to work on extension is to take a trip down the road. On my way out I work on relaxation (once he gets the "ooooh, I'm free!" energy out of him) and then I do some wide serpentines (I am on a very little used road) asking him to bend through them, and then changes of gait. Once he is relaxed, bent and on the bit I will turn for home and ask for extension. They all naturally want to move out when they head for home and it is usually easier then to achieve what you are looking for. Once they get the hang of what it is you are asking it gets easier each time but you still need to take all the steps beforehand to warm them up properly, it just doesn't take as long.
I don't necessarily do ALL of this the first day out or the 50th day out! If I don't achieve relaxation then I can't ask for bending, if I don't get bending then I can't ask for tighter figures. If I haven't prepared him properly OR if he is green then quite often I lose relaxation when I start asking for bend and I have to step back and start over. It all has to come together to actually make it work and it takes time.
One of my favorite ways to work on extension is to take a trip down the road. On my way out I work on relaxation (once he gets the "ooooh, I'm free!" energy out of him) and then I do some wide serpentines (I am on a very little used road) asking him to bend through them, and then changes of gait. Once he is relaxed, bent and on the bit I will turn for home and ask for extension. They all naturally want to move out when they head for home and it is usually easier then to achieve what you are looking for. Once they get the hang of what it is you are asking it gets easier each time but you still need to take all the steps beforehand to warm them up properly, it just doesn't take as long.
I don't necessarily do ALL of this the first day out or the 50th day out! If I don't achieve relaxation then I can't ask for bending, if I don't get bending then I can't ask for tighter figures. If I haven't prepared him properly OR if he is green then quite often I lose relaxation when I start asking for bend and I have to step back and start over. It all has to come together to actually make it work and it takes time.
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RhineStone
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I agree with what Lori said, but will add to remember to use the outside rein in the bending and don't "throw him away" on that side. The inside rein controls the direction of the bend, the outside rein controls the size. A bend isn't proper if the horse is falling toward the direction of the bend, which is what will happen if the outside rein isn't used. A dead giveaway is if the withers are upright during the bend. If they tip like a motorcycle through a corner, the horse is not bending correctly, as the inside hind leg is not coming up underneath the horse to support itself in the turn. It will take some time for the horse to figure out how to keep themselves and the vehicle upright.
We went through these same exercises and goals last year with my show gelding. He had "nice" gaits, but I'm aiming for "brilliant". Two years ago, he was pretty much consistently nosed out except during the slow trot, where I was asking for more "compaction". Last winter, he was EXTREMELY heavy in the bridle, so much so that my hands would hurt after working him. It was NO FUN! Then, when we started the work that Lori describes (he just wasn't ready for it before then), he finally began to "use himself" better. Small circles did wonders. We have a small indoor, and I would have him do a circle in each corner of the arena around a cone. We would also work on Cones work, taking smaller "routes" than we did the summer before. This kept him mentally engaged (our horses get bored going round and round, but think that driving Cones is a game). By last spring, he was MUCH lighter in the bridle. I found out that this can be a relatively normal occurance with driving horses, to get heavier before getting lighter, as described in the Heike Bean book, Carriage Driving, a Logical Approach Through Dressage Training. (Of course, I bought the book AFTER we already went through the icky part of his training! I literally couldn't stand driving him, but hoped there was light at the end of the tunnel. There was. Phew!) Our other horses didn't go through the "heavy stage", but I don't think that we were asking as much either, just satisfied to go from Point A to Point B without looking like anything, so they figured it out on their own, and they had much lighter mouths to start with.
Another technique for hind end engagement is hill work. This forces them to use their butt. When they figure out how to "push" the cart instead of pull it, they will use their rear ends more. If you don't have any hills (or they are covered with snow. We are supposed to get about a foot today!
) you can add a little extra weight (within reason, they shouldn't look like they are struggling to pull the cart), it will encourage them to use their butt. If I put my powerhouse gelding in a cart that is too light now, he "slops" around and totally loses frame.
Now my gelding holds his head consistantly perpendicular to the ground, but hopefully this year, we can start to "lift" his head and shoulders more. His front end is free and he has good "strike", but he is definitely in a "Training Level frame". We see moments of an Intermediate frame, but he needs to get more consistent with that now. He is now a joy to drive.
I would forego the shortcut gadgets, they might produce a "show ring" style horse in a shorter period of time, but if you want a horse that will actually use himself properly, push from behind, track up properly, and round his frame, there are no short cuts. Personally, I think that the gadgets actually set horses back in training by producing hollow horses. Roundness comes from work, not gadgets. Eventually, when they figure out that it is easier to push the cart than pull it, they will use themselves more and the extension will come.
Let us know how it is going!
Myrna
We went through these same exercises and goals last year with my show gelding. He had "nice" gaits, but I'm aiming for "brilliant". Two years ago, he was pretty much consistently nosed out except during the slow trot, where I was asking for more "compaction". Last winter, he was EXTREMELY heavy in the bridle, so much so that my hands would hurt after working him. It was NO FUN! Then, when we started the work that Lori describes (he just wasn't ready for it before then), he finally began to "use himself" better. Small circles did wonders. We have a small indoor, and I would have him do a circle in each corner of the arena around a cone. We would also work on Cones work, taking smaller "routes" than we did the summer before. This kept him mentally engaged (our horses get bored going round and round, but think that driving Cones is a game). By last spring, he was MUCH lighter in the bridle. I found out that this can be a relatively normal occurance with driving horses, to get heavier before getting lighter, as described in the Heike Bean book, Carriage Driving, a Logical Approach Through Dressage Training. (Of course, I bought the book AFTER we already went through the icky part of his training! I literally couldn't stand driving him, but hoped there was light at the end of the tunnel. There was. Phew!) Our other horses didn't go through the "heavy stage", but I don't think that we were asking as much either, just satisfied to go from Point A to Point B without looking like anything, so they figured it out on their own, and they had much lighter mouths to start with.
Another technique for hind end engagement is hill work. This forces them to use their butt. When they figure out how to "push" the cart instead of pull it, they will use their rear ends more. If you don't have any hills (or they are covered with snow. We are supposed to get about a foot today!
Now my gelding holds his head consistantly perpendicular to the ground, but hopefully this year, we can start to "lift" his head and shoulders more. His front end is free and he has good "strike", but he is definitely in a "Training Level frame". We see moments of an Intermediate frame, but he needs to get more consistent with that now. He is now a joy to drive.
I would forego the shortcut gadgets, they might produce a "show ring" style horse in a shorter period of time, but if you want a horse that will actually use himself properly, push from behind, track up properly, and round his frame, there are no short cuts. Personally, I think that the gadgets actually set horses back in training by producing hollow horses. Roundness comes from work, not gadgets. Eventually, when they figure out that it is easier to push the cart than pull it, they will use themselves more and the extension will come.
Let us know how it is going!
Myrna
MiLo Minis
Well-Known Member
Good advice Myrna and thank you for clarifying achieving bend. There will come a point in your driving/training of a green horse when he will be heavy in your hands and feel like he is going to cave over and that is usually the turning point - you MUST be very sure to support him at this point and not frighten him into tenseness until he works through it and figures out how to balance himself and hold himself upright even on tight turns.
I do want to caution the use of hills and/or extra weight. Be sure that your horse is physically capable and ready for this type of work before asking him or you will be risking injury to the horse or just plain turning him off the work. I believe this poster's horse may well be capable at this point as he is not a green horse and appears to be in good physical condition but for other's reading these replies please take that into consideration.
I do want to caution the use of hills and/or extra weight. Be sure that your horse is physically capable and ready for this type of work before asking him or you will be risking injury to the horse or just plain turning him off the work. I believe this poster's horse may well be capable at this point as he is not a green horse and appears to be in good physical condition but for other's reading these replies please take that into consideration.
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hobbyhorse23
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Truly excellent posts from MiLo and Rhinestone. They're right on! I agree that the saddle needs to be positioned further back and of course I'd love to see breeching on an easy entry cart like that, but your turnout overall is very well-fitted and correct.
)
Your particular horse appears to be relaxed and happy in harness with plenty of go and a natural tendency to step up under himself. I like the loose happy swing of his tail and the fact it appears his hind foot will hit the ground before his forefoot, but I think what we're seeing is a horse who is more lacking negative learned attributes rather than one that is showing positive learned attributes. What I mean is that he's NOT locked down and tense through his spine, NOT sucking his neck back away from the bit, NOT resisting contact, NOT trailing his hind end, but also isn't actively using his back or pushing up into the bridle in order to use himself better. He looks like a very talented mover and a willing partner, he just doesn't know yet how to be even better.
The exercises MiLo so carefully laid out will teach him how to do those things and then I think you'll see him raising that wither, "sticking his tail in the ground" and rounding up into the bridle.
The people who told you he needs to have his head and neck out for more extension are right, but there's a difference between letting him lengthen frame and throwing him away so he can stick his head in the air. The horse needs our support and guidance through the lines and it is our job to help him balance himself as he learns so our hands have to be there for him at all times. An overcheck and martingale together do form a framework the horse can learn to work within but they don't show him how to use his body. They say "Don't put your head lower than this" and "Don't stick your nose out more than this" and the horse learns through the process of elimination where we want his head. The problem with this is that it's training an outline and the rest of the horse's body is left out in the cold unless he figures out himself how to move from the rear or has a very skilled trainer who can teach him. Head position is a reflection of what the rest of the body is doing; a head naturally on the vertical is a side-effect of correct movement, not the goal in and of itself.
What we want is for the horse to learn to carry his weight more on the rear. When he does so he coils the joints of his hindquarters from the pelvis down and you'll see deeper angles and more push from his hind legs. He'll tighten his abdominal muscles in order to do this, lighten the forehand, raise the withers and his neck will naturally round into a pretty frame. A lengthening by a horse in this correct frame looks like him "pushing his ears forward" into the bridle as he pushes strongly from the rear and lengthens his stride. That's the part it's important to allow- the forward stretching of the frame. We don't want to let the mouth go as without support the nose will go up, the poll flattens and the horse will fall on his forehand. The contact simply becomes more elastic and allows the horse room to stretch within certain limits.
A breed ring "extended trot" is mostly a lengthening but with the horse more up in the bridle and not allowed quite such a stretch so the power is contained and goes into powerful movement instead of covering ground. It takes time to build the muscle for a horse to do that so work him through the exercises slowly and ask for only what he's capable of. I think he'll be a lovely horse when you're done!
Leia
The breed ring and driven dressage worlds use the term "extended" very differently. The breed ring uses it to mean the faster, bigger, more energetic trot with the horse up in the bridle and moving out. In driven dressage there is the working trot, which is the relaxed forward gait the horse could maintain for miles, the lengthened trot, where the horse pushes more from the hindquarters and physically "lengthens his frame" as he reaches forward into the bit, and the extended trot, where the horse is advanced enough to push the same amount of energy through his body without lengthening his frame more than a fraction, resulting in a very round, very powerful motion with a lot of reach and drive from behind. A true extended trot is not asked for until the upper levels of combined driving as it is extremely hard to achieve in the cart. (Then there is the issue of collection and the fifteen million different ways people use that term, but that's another topic!heathers124 said:
This is his extended trot, and I don't really know how to tell if his hindquarters are engaged properly, or if he should be driving more from his rear end. I have heard that his head is not needing to be collected while at an extended trot and that he needs have his head and neck out for more extension. Its hard to tell from one picture but how does his form look and what should I work on? :S
Your particular horse appears to be relaxed and happy in harness with plenty of go and a natural tendency to step up under himself. I like the loose happy swing of his tail and the fact it appears his hind foot will hit the ground before his forefoot, but I think what we're seeing is a horse who is more lacking negative learned attributes rather than one that is showing positive learned attributes. What I mean is that he's NOT locked down and tense through his spine, NOT sucking his neck back away from the bit, NOT resisting contact, NOT trailing his hind end, but also isn't actively using his back or pushing up into the bridle in order to use himself better. He looks like a very talented mover and a willing partner, he just doesn't know yet how to be even better.
The people who told you he needs to have his head and neck out for more extension are right, but there's a difference between letting him lengthen frame and throwing him away so he can stick his head in the air. The horse needs our support and guidance through the lines and it is our job to help him balance himself as he learns so our hands have to be there for him at all times. An overcheck and martingale together do form a framework the horse can learn to work within but they don't show him how to use his body. They say "Don't put your head lower than this" and "Don't stick your nose out more than this" and the horse learns through the process of elimination where we want his head. The problem with this is that it's training an outline and the rest of the horse's body is left out in the cold unless he figures out himself how to move from the rear or has a very skilled trainer who can teach him. Head position is a reflection of what the rest of the body is doing; a head naturally on the vertical is a side-effect of correct movement, not the goal in and of itself.
What we want is for the horse to learn to carry his weight more on the rear. When he does so he coils the joints of his hindquarters from the pelvis down and you'll see deeper angles and more push from his hind legs. He'll tighten his abdominal muscles in order to do this, lighten the forehand, raise the withers and his neck will naturally round into a pretty frame. A lengthening by a horse in this correct frame looks like him "pushing his ears forward" into the bridle as he pushes strongly from the rear and lengthens his stride. That's the part it's important to allow- the forward stretching of the frame. We don't want to let the mouth go as without support the nose will go up, the poll flattens and the horse will fall on his forehand. The contact simply becomes more elastic and allows the horse room to stretch within certain limits.
A breed ring "extended trot" is mostly a lengthening but with the horse more up in the bridle and not allowed quite such a stretch so the power is contained and goes into powerful movement instead of covering ground. It takes time to build the muscle for a horse to do that so work him through the exercises slowly and ask for only what he's capable of. I think he'll be a lovely horse when you're done!
Leia
heathers124
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Thankyou for all the tips! Right now he is fat and fuzzy, but in January we will be moving him to the neighbors facility with an indoor arena so that I can work with him more! I will be sure to try those exercises. Myrna: I am currently reading Carriage Driving and it is a great book and very helpful
This is another picture of him, what do you think of his conformation in general?
hobbyhorse23
Well-Known Member
He's a lovely boy! He has an attractive head with large eye, a nice neck that attaches clean and high on his chest, well-sprung ribs, short, strong, round loins, and a nice shape to his rump. I like him and his shiny dark coat shows how well-cared for he is.
Leia
Leia
drivin*me*buggy
Well-Known Member
Handsome boy!
I have to say bravo to those who answered this post! Well done
Quality information here!!
Angie
I have to say bravo to those who answered this post! Well done
Angie
Annabellarose
Well-Known Member
Ah, good reading. Thank you. This horse looks A LOT like a horse that I own that is currently my only trained driving (Miniature) horse.
RhineStone
Well-Known Member
The other exercise that I found very helpful in that book was the longlining exercise where you run along with the horse on the long wall of the arena. I also put ground poles down to encourage my gelding to reach with his legs while he trotted over.
heathers124
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Thanks! I actually didn't do a full body clip on him that year. This show was very late in the season so by that time he had shed out naturally (he is the only one of our minis that sheds out nicely). I trimmed the long hair around his face, his bridal bath and a few other places that needed touchups but it was nice not to have to do the whole thing. How long before a show should I clip him if I want him to turn black again? Usually after a clip he is a dull gray until it grows out a bit. Annabellarose: He is actually bred at Chickadee Ridge although that is not where we bought him. His sire is Fan Cee Tails Thunder and his dam is a mare named Star.
