An idea to reduce cheaters when being measured in

[Leeana]

If someone has already stated this idea ..i am sorry, i really do not have it in me to read all 30 or 40 pages of some of those height threads lol.

Why not imply a rule that the horses owner cannot hold / set up the horse while being measured in before the show? Why not have two stewards to measure the horses ...one sets up the horse FAIRLY and the other measures ..the owner cannot touch or take part is squaring up the horse ...

Now i know what you are all thinking ..some people may still get special treatment but dont you think this would really help make things fair ..even if just slightly. All horses set up the same way by one same person? No horses doing the splits ...no horses parked out ..no horses with their hocks camped under them.

Actually, if you would like to make it EVEN more fair ..why not have a 3rd person to watch and make sure guy #2 that sets up all the horses is doing it FAIRLY and the same per horse. I know it sounds like allot but we are a HEIGHT breed therefore dont you feel allot of effort should be put forth to ensure our horses are measured in at the right height ? They could even incorporate a signature on the height slip where the owner could sign and state they viewed the measurment and agree with the said height ..just to keep later complaining to a minimum

.

Just a thought ...

Leeana Hackworth

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I have thought about this idea as well. But instead of the steward setting up your horse, the steward can judge if your horse is standing square or streched, not really that hard to do. You can touch the horses legs to help them set up, but thats it! You can not touch your horse anywhere else, and you have to be a few feet away from your horse, you are still holding the lead. If your horse acts up there can always be someone else there to help calm your horse down. Seriously its plain and simple, people just need to follow it. If I am touching the horse its just at the horses head to keep it calm, not trying to trick measuring or anything. I don't complain where my horse gets measured most of the time it never changes and its usually right on.

 

[Echo Acres]

 

[Leeana]

I do not think, if this rule was applied (im not saying it is or will be lol) ..i do not feel you should be able to touch the horse at all during the setting up / measuring in of your horse. Hmm just throwing out idea's

 

[wpsellwood]

Very good idea, I like it.

But instead of the steward setting up your horse, the steward can judge if your horse is standing square or streched, not really that hard to do.

This is already done at the world show. Apparently not working

 

[Minimor]

Honestly, all it takes is for the steward/measurement person to stand up to the owner/handler and ENFORCE THE RULES!!

Doesn't matter how you position the horse--if you can square him up without touching him or if you must place his legs, I don not see any issue with touching the horse to stand him up square. But once he is stood up and the steward starts to measure, the handler must stand back and not touch the horse. Handler must not push down on the horse, handler must not pull the horse's head up....

As for how the horse is stood up, surely to goodness the steward can look at that horse and decide if the horse is or is not square. If the horse is spraddle legged or stretched the steward simply says sorry, the horse is not square, and until the horse is square I do not measure him. Plain and simple. We shouldn't need to have special handlers to handle the horse for measuring, we just need stewards to have the ethics to follow the rules and the nerve to stand up to the owner/handler. That way the handler would have two choices--he can follow the rules & stand his horse up properly, or he can have the steward refuse to measure the horse because it isn't stood square, and if that latter one is his choice then he can take his horse back to the barn and not show it that day.

If the steward isn't going to enforce the existing rules, and if AMHA/AMHR show management and BOD isn't going to back up those stewards when they do take a stand against those handlers/owners that would cheat, then it isn't going to help if you have 10 extra people standing there handling the horse and watching to make sure all is fair. As soon as the measurement doesn't suit the owner he's going to start screaming and making threats about lawsuits and whatever else, and the measurement officials are going to give in just like they do now.

Think it will work to take the horse out of view of the owner to measure? As soon as the horse comes back with his 34" card instead of the 32" card that the owner wanted, owner is going to be jumping up and down & yelling and screaming...

Sorry, but it is my sincere belief that if we can't get anyone to enforce the existing rules now, all the rule changes in the world aren't going to fix this problem.

 

[minimomNC]

And think of the liability when AMHA or AMHR forces me to hand over one of my horses to be measured and something happens, my horse is injured or worse. Where do you think I am going to lay the blame. On the associations because they didn't enforce the rules they already had and made me give my horse to a stranger.

I agree with Minimor, the fault lies with whoever is holding that stick and if they comply with the rules that are already in place.

 

[McBunz]

If they were given three chances to stand the horse square for measuring and failed to do so they should

be disqualified from the show. If they speak to the person measuring or argue the results of the measure

disqualify them from the show.. Anyone found to be incorrectly measuring regularly should be banned for life..

A few disqualifications would solve the problem in a hurry..

 

[Cathy_H]

Few years back when this was suggested one comment I remember was " MY horse will NOT tolerate anyone else touching it"

........................ As stated before, nothing else needs to be done EXCEPT honest measuring!...... So simple OH! why do the people in charge NOT understand this?

 

[Devon]

Sounds good untill you think of the way people would act toward the poor person holding the hrose

Some people will blame that person and I dont think you would want o be htem

And think of the liability when AMHA or AMHR forces me to hand over one of my horses to be measured and something happens, my horse is injured or worse. Where do you think I am going to lay the blame. On the associations because they didn't enforce the rules they already had and made me give my horse to a stranger.

Good Point

 

[skylineminis]

Honestly, all it takes is for the steward/measurement person to stand up to the owner/handler and ENFORCE THE RULES!!

Doesn't matter how you position the horse--if you can square him up without touching him or if you must place his legs, I don not see any issue with touching the horse to stand him up square. But once he is stood up and the steward starts to measure, the handler must stand back and not touch the horse. Handler must not push down on the horse, handler must not pull the horse's head up....

As for how the horse is stood up, surely to goodness the steward can look at that horse and decide if the horse is or is not square. If the horse is spraddle legged or stretched the steward simply says sorry, the horse is not square, and until the horse is square I do not measure him. Plain and simple. We shouldn't need to have special handlers to handle the horse for measuring, we just need stewards to have the ethics to follow the rules and the nerve to stand up to the owner/handler. That way the handler would have two choices--he can follow the rules & stand his horse up properly, or he can have the steward refuse to measure the horse because it isn't stood square, and if that latter one is his choice then he can take his horse back to the barn and not show it that day.

If the steward isn't going to enforce the existing rules, and if AMHA/AMHR show management and BOD isn't going to back up those stewards when they do take a stand against those handlers/owners that would cheat, then it isn't going to help if you have 10 extra people standing there handling the horse and watching to make sure all is fair.

This will never happen. Best idea yet but, it isn't about showing horses....it's about money, power and status. The horse is just a prop.

 

[Boinky]

might cost more...but they need to hire independent measures that do not show or have affiliations with the mini horse world. Less pressure to "kiss butt" and if they are trained correctly could just as easily measure as anyone else. It does really all boil down to not enforcing rules as they stand now..but i keep hearing that it's the measures that are at fault. I don't agree with this..i think it goes all the way up the line all the way to the top eschelons of the clubs. It is allowed to happen and nothing is ever done because it's a financial boost it's not just on the measures scale.. the WHOLE SYSTEM needs to be cleaned up and rules enacted and enforced and those caught cheating at a any level will be reprimanded suitable to their "crime". Weather that be suspension or whatever it takes.

this is not a small scale problem that lies soley on the shoulders of one group of people..it starts at the top and works down from both ends (yes it also starts at the handlers ends that wants to cheat and is will to blackmail, black ball, and kiss butt to get where they want to be).

 

[justagirl]

might cost more...

This is what I was thinking ... who is going to pay to have all these measurers ?? That could get pricey and who do think pays all the bills for the show ... I'll give you a hint ; it isn't AMHA or AMHR .... it's the Club's responsibility .

I haven't chimed in on this subject but have been watching these threads closely. I was at the convention and heard the arguments for this new measuring rule and I agree with the rest of you .... what's wrong with just having the measurers do their job and MAKE THEM BE ACCOUNTABLE ! Stop asking me what my horse is supposed to measure ; measure the darn thing and you tell me !!! Just my 2 cents .

 

[Nancy]

easy way to get accurate measurement .

1 establish the exact spot that is to be measured [could be done by 2 officials ] mark that spot .

2. set front feet on a designated line on floor or a black measuring mat .

3 have a level that adjusts in height to fit all size of horses the horses back legs would have to be squared in back , there are several ways this could work if there was an issue about a horse being afraid of the square it could be held away from the horse with a light in front of it so when horse was squared up the light would project on wall behind the horse in a perfect upside down [ L ] so feet could not be camped out in back.

3 where normally the measuring stick would be placed, there would be a light , it would be lined up with the mark placed on horse in step #1 this light would be on a base like a measuring stick then raise and lower it till the light showed on wall behind the horse then look at the height on light stick.

This would be simple no touching on pushing down or pressure from a measuring stick pushing down on back . Simple and no way to get false reading once the correct measuring spot was determined. The beam of light method has been used in contest events for years.

 

[Leeana]

And think of the liability when AMHA or AMHR forces me to hand over one of my horses to be measured and something happens, my horse is injured or worse. Where do you think I am going to lay the blame. On the associations because they didn't enforce the rules they already had and made me give my horse to a stranger.

I have never attended a show where they did not ask for me to sign a liability on the show entry forms. There is always something on there stating they cannot be held liabable for anything stolen, damaged while on show grounds ..ext ext ext. It would be easy to add to the end of that "...or during the measuring process".

I just feel if we had set people to measure it would take away allot of the cheating. They could even go through a small class put together by the regisry or something of that sort. Yes, it may cost more for the clubs (which can possibly make that back on entry fees) which would be split between 150 people ...

If you really want to *attempt* to fix this and this is really a concern of ours, we may have to put our money where our mouth is

 

[rabbitsfizz]

There is no problem with the rules exactly as they stand.

The problem is with those rules being enforced.

The problem, with your idea, would still be exactly the same.

 

[Erica]

OK, I haven't taken time yet to read this thread in full.......maybe later. I'm running on low steam and low sleep and am at work.....

But this is just MY two cents on the subject.

Really and truly coming from a prespective of showing at AMHR Nationals (not Worlds) for the last oh 10 years........I don't see a HUGE amount of horses that seem really really too tall to be showing...

Last few years there have been over 1600 horses in attendance, and I'd say around 10 that I'd second guess on heights and in my eye and mind think that they "should" measure different; that's less than 1% of the total horses at this show; And really these that are tall a lot are from the same farm or farms.

Have the people that are so vidily advocating trying to reduce the oversized horses showing or measuring to change, are they actually showing themselves at the larger shows or at nationals? Are they there to see all these huge horses.........or is it just hearsay?

I'm not saying there are not tall (too tall) horses showing; but in my experience and my own two eyes for AMHR it's honeslty really only maybe 1% or less, of the horses showing at Nationals that we call "pushers". I've been in classes before when I look around and there is one that just Towers over the others, and I'm in a 32-34" class with a 33.75" horse and there's one that is a few inches bigger.

As an exhibitor and member you have every right to protest a horse that you feel is over its class......it's laid out in the rulebook how to do it. It's actually quite simple.

As far as handing your horse to someone else to measure; whose to say that someone else won't play favorites and still let those special few measure in?

I could see personal favors happening just as much with his scenario of measuring as any other, or what we are doing now.

What if this person can't control the horse being measure and it gets measured jumping all over the place, or a horse being very tense, nervous will also make them measure taller..........that horse might have stood like stone for it's owners to measure in.

2. set front feet on a designated line on floor or a black measuring mat

A line is not going to be the same for multiple horses; you have your short backed 27" horses and then your 38" mature horses with a longer topline.......

Using the same "lines" and that 27" horse is going to be stretched out, and that 38" longer horse is going to be parked up under it's self.

edited...went back and read your post; first glane I thought you meant two strips of tape, for all feet to be on.

As far as tape for front feet; most shows I have been to do that; or at least have a box of tape to measure in.

I am sure I have more thoughts on the subject, but for now that's just my opinion.

 

[Millstone Farm]

And if you have the same people measuring all the horses -- think of the potential for spreading all sorts of nasty viruses! These measurers would be exposed to every germ that every single horse there is carrying and spread it to every horse they come in contact with.

When I am at the World Show, I do everything in my power to limit my horses' exposure to other people and horses. I would not be an advocate of having the same group of people handling 1,000 horses.

 

[LaVern]

I agree Erica, in my opinion there are just a few that push it, but alot of the time they are the top dogs. I think that if we could just bring one of them down, the rest of us would fall in line like little puppy dogs, and be very careful there after. I wonder if the big taado at AMHA World will give someone the courage to acually do a height protest at Nationals.

 

[justagirl]

I agree Erica, in my opinion there are just a few that push it, but alot of the time they are the top dogs. I think that if we could just bring one of them down, the rest of us would fall in line like little puppy dogs, and be very careful there after. I wonder if the big taado at AMHA World will give someone the courage to acually do a height protest at Nationals.

I just caught the tail end of this at the convention ... but it is my understanding that the protest fee is going to be increased to $100 to deter folks from protesting .

And I agree with your statement that their are probably just a handful of these people , but that's enough to ruin it for the rest of us in the registry .