AMHR Nationals Height Protest Rules

[LaVern]

Hi, I have been overwhelmed with emails and calls telling me the rules of protesting and they just don't jive. There seem to be so many what ifs and no rules to cover them.

So give me your questions and I will get a hold of the three Rule people -Laurie Villanopando-Dolores Williams and Zona Schneider. I will ask them the questions and then ask for the page in the rule book that covers the question. Then I will call all the National Stewards and see if they agree with what the Rule Book says. Then I will send all this information to Lenard.

I think that it will take all next week to do it. but I will try. Lots of people are saying these are dumb rules and it should be this way or that way. But, I think we first have to figure out the way they stand now. Please give me your questions. Thanks much, Renee

 

[LaVern]

Perhaps I should run this by The Futurity Committee members (Bob Brown and Dolores Williams) and the AMHR committee members (Ray Kovarik, Bob Brown and Larry Parnell). Don't you? Renee

 

[mistyrose]

The AMHA World (national) measurements are all done in the same area. It has a big seating area and anyone showing or not is welcome to view the measuring!

If we want the stigma of protesting to go away then we the members of both registries need to stand behind the protester. Its not the easiest thing to do because often we might not agree with the protest. It is similar to the problem people have with the ACLU. Its hard to stand behind actions you don't agree with just because the right to protest ( or speak an unpopular opinion ) is just that a right. But if you won't stand behind a "right" when you don't agree or don't like it, who will be standing there when it is your "unpopular" butt on the firing line.

 

[MiLo Minis]

I have been doing some thought on this because of my own personal experiences showing and at the measurement area. One thing I thought of is maybe we could have a panel of witnesses drawn at random from the show attendees to witness the measuring. If there was a panel then we could have at least one independant witness at all measurings at each show. Maybe for the National Show we could have say 12 names drawn and then make it mandatory that at least one of those people was present. For an area show have 6 and at club shows have 2. That of course would not guarantee that all those people would be honest too but at least it would give us a fighting chance.

 

[LaVern]

So far from those I have talked to the same rules apply to Futurity protests as regular show protests.

 

[LaVern]

Okay, these are hard ones. Haven't gotten for sure answers yet.

If your hosre has won ribbons and then gets protested in later classes and measured over, do you get your previous ribbons taken away and are you just bumped to a taller class and then continue to compete in that class as long as not over 36 37 or 38 iches, depending on age of horse.

And the big one can you protest a Championship Class?

 

[Louise]

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:

Lavern YOU GO GIRL You will be representing alot of us little farms that are afraid to stand up to the folks that take oversize minis into the ring. It is outright cheating and dishonest to me. I hope the folks that do this sleep well at night. Those of us that try to be honest and fair seem to be penalized for it. kind of sad isn't it.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

The AMHA World (national) measurements are all done in the same area. It has a big seating area and anyone showing or not is welcome to view the measuring!

Yes it is the same way at R Nationals anyone is more then welcome to be there watching in fact there is always a huge crowd of people in line and waiting right there

 

[Sunshine Acres]

Wow, boy everyone sure has an opinion on this one! What im wondering when im reading, is...WHO are you afraid is going to beat you. By saying that you will protest the championship, that is saying to me you expect to be in that class....what guarantee do you have that we don't that you will be in that class??? Becuase I can tell you that im going and it would be a dream to be in that class but not something im expecting and then thinking if I don't win it is becuase someone cheated and thier over sized horse beat me and that is the only reason they beat me.

I mean we are not even at the show you don't know what horses are even entered or in your class and how tall they are or short they are and you are already heck bent on protesting. It sounds like a personal vendeta agianst a certain person you are already anticipating to show against. Perhaps this is a horse you have shown against before?? Rules are Rules but getting everyone worked into a freenzy before the show even gets started is a bit time consuming IMO. And offering everyone $50 to protest I mean it doesn't even sound like you are only saying to protest IF you think the horse is too tall. So basically everyone who is reading this, should expect to get thier horse remeasured if you have won in any and all classes becuase some yahoo is going to be handing out $50 bills at the out gate, I mean it couldn't be that you are winning becuase you have the nicer horse, heck no it has to be politics......

I know and im sure others have had this happen as well. But I show in several different clubs, and I can tell you that my horses always measure a little different from every show, and sometimes that 1/4 to 1/2 inch difference can make a hieght break, does that mean im cheating? Or does that mean instead of protesting any horse that comes out of the class, maybe energy should be spent on a new rule proposal for next year(becuase it is too late for this year) would be a better ideal than assuming that everyone is cheating.

And if you get a 10th then are you going to protest all 9 horses in the class hoping that your horse moves up to the national grand champion?

Now this being said I don't do anything special to measure in my horses, and I mean im paying the stewards to measure so I had better have faith in them that they can do thier job, and if I didn't and I was this worried about who is winning the classes and how they did it, I guess It would be much more healthy for me to just not show and not contribute to paying them if I really thought they were cheaters, it is not only the handler or person who measures in the horse you are accusing of cheating but also the official stewards of the show.

Anyways this is just my opinion on the matter and how I see it.

 

[HGFarm]

I must say, I agree somewhat with Sunshine here. Just my honest opinion here, but this is beginning to sound like a vigilante committee who is out for blood. To me, this is really bringing a negative attitude down on Nationals (A or R) and I would not want to go to a show with guns ablazing before I even got there.

I would want to go and enjoy the show and the people and the great horses that are there and IF a problem should arise, take care of it at that time.

I agree with following the rules, and give kudos to those who want to do right, but this is beginning to sound like half the horses that are there and winning shouldn't be there, or some are just walking around with a bowl of sour grapes. Overall, how many of these horses thought to be oversized really are?

 

[LaVern]

Good Morning. Hi I have not been able to find out much this weekend, but those that perhaps can help us were probably very busy.

Yes, this is a personal vindeta. One against myself for standing back all these years and doing nothing. I hope that I never have to protest a measurment and if I do I hope that I am proved WRONG.

But I feel so strongly that it is not just my right to protest, but rather my DUTY, if I honestly feel there is a mistake in measuremnts. --That is all we are a height registy.-- But,we have to know how to do it or it will just be a big mess that gets shoved into the hands of showmanagemnt. And that is not fair to the protester or showmangement.

I will try to call the stewards today and let you know wht I find out. Thanks. Renee

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I guess what I dont understand is why is ANYONE contacting the show stewards BEFORE a show and before any measuring is done to let them know anything? They are fully aware of there job and the rules and the ways to file a protest and they have been already posted here on this very thread for everyone else to see so they can know as well. I am not sure what more other that what has been posted here by Karen they could even answer.

I see what you are saying but I am not understanding why there should be any contact with show management or stewards before a National show on this issue(or any concerning the show or the horses that will be there- I wasnt aware that we could even discuss the National show with those officals before the show began?) when no horses are even there or measured yet so as of this moment there is no problems or issues. A protest filed really wont send the entire national show and its running into a tizzy as they truly have done this before on this and other issues. I trust the show officals to know and do there job and will choose not to worry about it or not to look for someone at the gate waving 50 dollar bills.

My personal feeling is that if my horse didnt win bottom line it wasnt there day.

I also agree with sunshine in that I have NEVER had a horse measure the same at every show granted it may be a .25 to .50 difference but I dont assume that the steward is cheating or trying to sabatoge me in any way .. it is what happens when you opt to measure the way our breed does. I also agree with the fact that all this energy would be put to great use to make a propsal to change the measuring standards so that this uproar before a show even begins wont be needed

I do hope that everyone gets to feel that the show was fair and they enjoy themselves and have a good time.

And of course any of those that intentionally go out and break the rules think twice

 

[LaVern]

Oh, just one more thing. Part of my heart has been harnessed to The American Miniature Horse Registy for twenty years now. And I cannot bear to think of the repututation of our Registry being so damaged as the AMHA was last year at the World show. Surely we will not let that happen to anyone and we will support those who choose to use their protest right at any time. Renee

 

[hhpminis]

Renee, thanks for having the guts to attempt to right wrongs. I do support you in your efforts.

However, thankyou Karen for saying what I was thinking about the stewards. It has been my experience that Richard and all the other stewards at the National show and at local shows as well have always been very accessible and helpful in any sort of problem or dispute as well as friendly and helpful to those with less experience.

I put in an official complaint last year for abuse and they were more than willing to go to bat and take the heat and check out the situation. They stood by the rulebook and did everything according to how it should have been done. I was there, I saw them get yelled at, called names and threatened and they did not lose their cool or temper even once. They have a hard job and do it well. I guarantee, they will not run and hide from you.

 

[Crabby-Chicken]

[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]

Okay I don't see this in anyway as an attack on the stewards. I have NEVER had a problem with stewards at a local show, I have never been lucky enough to go to Nationals or Worlds yet. I plan to someday.Stewards are hard working people that usually don't get the credit they deserve in making showing a wonderful time for us all. That being said, one of my horses have measured up to an inch difference in two weeks??? Why? who knows. Varying factors. Longer feet, stress and more fat on the horse are a few differences.

Now the problem I HAVE seen is some trainers are really REALLY good at doing things to their horses to get them to limbo under. Do I call that cheating,, YES! If you truly have a varience in your horses heights from show to show, is that cheating??? No. If you do your best to make sure it happens in your favor, yes. Especially if it cause anymore stress on the horses. Sticking them to hunch down or sanding their feet way down till they are sore. We have all heard the stories about withers being burned or poked to train them to shy down away from the measuring stick. Ot people putting something that pokes the horse in their blankets, that is ONE of the reasons you take off the blanket and slinky first, so there aren't things in there. I has, does and will keep happening. Especially if people keep standing back.

So again I do not think this is an attack on stewards. Or show officials. If no one complains, then nothing is done. I have heard that a few of our Nationals Grand/ World champions were wayyyyy bigger than the classes they were in and won in. That makes me unhappy as all get out.

I do not feel that looking to make a difference is just causing trouble or looking for trouble. It is standing up and trying to make everyone play by the same rules.

 

[Boinky]

lol the measure height thing is definatly a thing of curiosity to me. I like crabby have had horses measure 1" differnces. it blows my mind. One of my little ones..when i measure him at home (now i'm not a measure expert) comes in about 31" or slightly over . at three differnt show's he's measured quite differntly. now granted one of these shows was an A show and two R's..but this is just to go to show differnces. I beleive at the A show last year he measured in at 31 1/4 then at one r show this summer he measure a whopping 32".. then one month later he was a measly 30"... i'm sorry but that's a HUGE differnce in measuring!! i know for a fact that the horse DIDN'T grow or shrink 1" and at this past show.. he's a senior horse who is well past his growing stage and his feet were the longest they've been while being measured those three times!! That isn't even a 1" differnce when you go from 32 down to 30" in one month..LOL that's TWO inches and that's NOT from trimming alot of hoof off or shaving his mane differnt ect. my other stallion went from 33" down to 32 at one point..i can't remember all his heights as i dont' have them sitting right here infront of me. it always amuses me that they can shrink or shoot up..but i dont' care since they seem to stay in the same division for the most part which is good since i have two stallions that need to be in differnt divisions for me to be able to compete them.

 

[user 488]

I was there, I saw them get yelled at, called names and threatened and they did not lose their cool or temper even once. They have a hard job and do it well. I guarantee, they will not run and hide from you.

You've got to be joking!!!!!!!!!!!

As many of you know, I show Arabians.....not minis and this entire measuring thing has been a constant source of amazement for me. I can tell you this..............if a steward or stewards who were stewarding our National show got called names, yelled at and/or threatened the person doing the threatening would be suspended. I just cannot believe that this kind of behavior is even tolerated. How does something like this get to this point? It's more than disgusting and child like.

Renee, GOOD FOR YOU! I wish all of you the best. NOBODY should have to be afraid to go to a steward and a steward she never have to tolerate rudeness................

And NOBODY needs their trainers permission to protest either......Ridiculous!

 

[LaVern]

I in no way wish to come down on any steward, Quite the opposite. I want them to know that when they make a call that is not what the exhibtor likes they will have no fear of reprocussions for it, by anyone.

Also, they are human and they can make mistakes and when and if they do we have the right to guestion it with no reprocussions.

I have been sent home with one of my tall horses and it hurt, but I have nothing but respect for that steward. She was right.

 

[Minimor]

Does no one remember a National show a few years back--not sure which year, I wasn't there, but I've heard about this from more than one person, and the persons who told me about it had/have no association with each other so I don't believe that it's that they collaborated on their stories

: -- when a steward tried to enforce correct measurement policies and was harrassed & threatened by owners/handlers to the point of tears? When the steward looked for official backup, was supposedly told to just go with what the exhibitors wanted?

And I don't know why it always gets blamed on sour grapes when someone mentions cleaning up the measurement issue? Rules are rules and should be followed. If size doesn't matter and height protests are nothing more than sour grapes, why measure at all? Just let everyone enter their horses in whatever class they want to go in, & call it good.

I don't see anything wrong with getting the facts ahead of time & having your ducks in a row, so to speak, so that if a protest is justified, the person already knows the details & can make a protest without having to rush around trying to get information within the allowed hour. I do agree that it may not be right to contact the national show stewards before the show. Any steward should be able to provide the required information. The Nationals stewards should know the measuring rules, & if they follow those rules, not a problem. If they don't, then their measurement decisions are open to scrutiny and protest. They should know that too.

I think the official measure stick should be a slab of concrete with measure stick bolted down to it. Lead the horse up, stand it square, lower the measure arm to the spot that is the proper measurement spot (agreed upon by a scrutiny committee of a certain number of people randomly selected) and if that measure arm won't go down to 34", then that horse isn't 34". :bgrin

 

[CLC Stables]

I think the official measure stick should be a slab of concrete with measure stick bolted down to it. Lead the horse up, stand it square, lower the measure arm to the spot that is the proper measurement spot (agreed upon by a scrutiny committee of a certain number of people randomly selected) and if that measure arm won't go down to 34", then that horse isn't 34".

Nice idea but it won't work...........................

Where do you put the stick down????? Last hair of the mane??? That leaves us with the same problem that we are at right now.

I don't recall a steward being put to tears at Nationals, was this R???? I have been there the past 5 years and don't recall that.