Advice on how to handle a situation

[Reble]

I'll try to keep this generic enough so that hopefully no one ends up offended.

How would you handle this?

If I felt I did not want my mare being bred to a stallion than would not sell

Someone inquires on a horse. It's not someone you already know. Their email contains a website, so of course that's something I would check out...even before answering their questions.

Being an email would just not reply if you feel this is not the right home.

You see something on the site that is a no-no for you. I'm not talking about abuse or dangerous activity,etc. All their horses look extremely well taken care of, etc. But if breeding is what they have in mind, regarding the initial inquiry, then it's not someone I'm going to sell to.

again do not have to reply

How to handle this? Probably very nice people; horses look great. But some, let's say breeding decisions, don't look like the best ones. How not to offend? If no breeding was involved, I might consider it.

Well telling them they have a dwarf stallion sure might offend them..

I'm generally not at a loss, but this one has stumped me.

Good Luck but sounds like you already know what you want to do.

I also have seen some web sites that take terrible pictures, and when you see them in person are amazed that it was the same horse.

 

[ohmt]

After reading this whole thread, I must say that there are some truly AWESOME people on this forum! I say that including those on both sides of the argument on here. Parmela-I so very much admire you for your stance on dwarfism and that you don't just talk the talk, but you walk the walk and have gone through heartbreaking experiences to better the breed. You are an amazing individual

I also love what has been said on the other side of the spectrum as well because that is what my stance would be in the situation. Even though this has gotten a bit heated, I hope you all know that you are some very classy people. It is a difficult situation to be in and I don't believe Parmela would purposely try to hurt anyone's feelings unless she thought it was in her horse's best interest. I hope she'll do it in a respectful manner, and I'm sure she will.

 

[Mini Gaits Farm]

My point in this is....To me, personally, I would rather tell a white lie...that won't harm anyone and say...I have someone ahead of you looking at the mare. I will let you know. That is all it would take. But I would NOT post this on a public forum and risk the hurt feelings of "whoever these people are". The benefit is not worth the risk IMO. If they are tech savvy enough to have a website, then most likely they know about and have visited or even frequent LilBeginnings. I will never knowingly risk hurting anyone like that. I know lots of people praise certain practices and beliefs and that is OK....this forum is full of supportive people. But the praise is not worth the risk in this situation...JMHO.

 

[susanne]

Like Parmela, I would have a difficult time with this situation. I would not want to offend the buyer, but I would place greater importance on the welfare of my defenseless mare, especially with people who have proof of what their stallion produces.

Nor would I sell a mare to someone planning to breed her to a stallion too large for her. No offense there, as I love the taller minis, but I still would not subject a horse to a dangerous breeding so long as she was in my custody.

How would I handle Parmela's situation? I would most likely say as little as possible while still being politely clear that no sale would occur. If they demanded a reason, I'd then be more specific. I'd allow them to save face, but I'd not allow then to buy my mare.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Dwarfism is in EVERY bloodline, i am sure of this, if it is not known to be in a certain group of horses it is because the owner does not disclose this in public.

Parmela has some outstanding horses, she has bred some truly beautiful horses and that is not an easy feat. I feel she has every right to decide whom she sells to.

I just hope I never become so "knowledgeable" that i consider myself the "fashion police" and start telling individual farms what to breed and what not to.

If i feel a horse that i have at my farm is not a good fit for someone looking to purchase it, i will state just that, no more (even when ask.)

My goal is to never hurt someones feelings or to cause someone embarrassment.

I do not know who these people are but i truly wish them well in their Miniature Horse Endeavors, and hope they find the right horse for their farm.

 

[susanne]

If more breeders had Parmela's integrity, we might be further ahead in lessening the impact of the dwarf gene upon our breed. The answer is simple: put the welfare of the horse FIRST.

 

[Minimor]

If more breeders had Parmela's integrity, we might be further ahead in lessening the impact of the dwarf gene upon our breed. The answer is simple: put the welfare of the horse FIRST.

I would say she can put the welfare of her horse first without offending the interested party. In a situation like there there is absolutely no point in being blunt and telling them their stallion is a dwarf. They probably don't want to hear that, won't see it and won't listen--you cause hard feelings and all for nothing. I'm not suggesting Parmela should sell her mare if they do want to buy--I'm just saying that there is no point in offering information that is sure to offend.

Would I sell a mare to these people in these circumstances? No, probably not. I might not even if the stallion weren’t a dwarf, but simply had really horrendous (in my view) conformation—that is my choice, I can decide not to sell to someone simply because I don’t like that person! I do not condemn you for choosing to not sell your horse in this case. I do, however, agree that there is much arrogance in this thread. I would have simply dealt with the situation as I chose to—I would have no need to get validation from people on any forum and I would have no need to deliberately cut down someone’s horses, especially when they do not ask for my critique. People generally have their website address in their signature because they are proud of their animals and breeding program, not because they are wanting everyone they contact to critique their horses. So, rabbitsfizz was blunt with someone about the quality (or lack thereof) of their horse…did it do any good? Obviously not, since by her own admission the person in question did not change anything as a result of her critique. It made her feel good about herself I guess (sounds like it anyway) but did it help the owners or any horses? Doesn't sound like it.

 

[susanne]

.

Holly, I'm guessing you didn't read my previous post.

 

[WashingtonCowgirl]

People generally have their website address in their signature because they are proud of their animals and breeding program, not because they are wanting everyone they contact to critique their horses.

But isn't it human nature to be curious? Are you saying that you wouldn't do any sort of home check when you sell a horse? You also can't tell me that you haven't come across a breeders website and thought to yourself "Man, I really like those horses" or vise versa. That's still a critique in my opinion. Everyone who goes on a breeders website critiques it. From the actual horses to the background to the font, it will be critiqued (even if only mentally) by everyone who clicks on it.

Parmela, I would just tell them that someone else had interest before them, or that you have decided to retain her for your breeding program for a little bit. Good for you for not wanting to sell your mare to a home that might produce dwarfs, knowingly or not.

 

[Rockin Angels]

I have read this post with great interest because I have been a lurker for many years and I have gained a great deal of knowledge from this board and my own personal experiences I'd like to offer my two cents. Please don't expect that because I've only been a lurker means I don't know what I'm talking about or that I'm inexperienced because I am not. I also don't want any of this post to come off as being arrogant, because I'm not arrogant either.

 

First Parmela- keeping your focus on the mare and the "possible" future confirms my solid opinion of you and your integrity as a horse owner. You could have simply looked at the financial side of things and took their money and sold your horse. Instead you chose to come to a board that offers many opinions to voice your concerns. I applaud that decision.

 

My first attempt in response to this inquiry from this potential buyer would be to state that I don't think she would fit with your program. If they then question you as to why I would then inform them of my concerns and I would use this wonderful site to educate them. One of the best things I've done as a responsible owner of my horses is to educate myself using this site and other respected Point them to the article in the "best of lil beginnings thread " on dwarfism.

 

 

I was not willing to play Russian Roulette with her ..

Exactly – we are their caretakers on earth and we have a responsibility to TAKE CARE of these wonderful animals we have been blessed with.

 

You are right Mary Lou. I have a problem telling them to. Who is to say that they are not breeding exactly what they like??

I do not think anyone intentionally breeds dwarfs. However one of the most loving horses i ever had the privledge of knowing was a dwarf. Does she have value? YOU BET SHE DOES! Maybe just not in everyones "expert" opinion.

When i have visited someones farm, either virtually or in person, i have felt priveledged to be there, these people are KIND to allow me to see thier breeding programs, how they do things, horses they own, and breed. I will in NO WAY INSULT THEM, by telling them thier horses are not good enough.

To tell someone thier horse is not quality, and their breeding program is not as good as yours takes a very arrogant person.

 

BUT it takes a responsible person to consider where they may be placing their animals and to control what they know can be potentially dangerous for that animal.

 

 

"help" someone by telling them the horses they are producing are substandard, and inferior. And they are not "good," "responsible" horse breeders such as yourself is an insult...and borderlines on just plain bad manners.

Its really saddening that people can be so harsh and cruel to one another, my heart hurts for them, and i hope that one persons "expert" opinion does not stop them from enjoying and loving their miniature horses, and all the wonderful experiences they provide.

 

No one is saying (at least that's how I take this thread) that a dwarf has does not have value or deserves to be loved. But to intentionally breed for this trait is irresponsible and uneducated. Those who have the knowledge of possible outcomes for the mare and foal should be responsible and educate. To PROPERLY communicate can be done without arrogance or insults. Yes there are those that intentionally breed for Dwarfs because they think they are "cute" and there can be "greed" that goes along with that. I have visited many many farms IN PERSON and I have seen first-hand some deplorable conditions that people keep their minis in just for the sake of making a buck. They don't care about the animal, they care about money.

 

 

It may offend them but I'd much rather do that and maybe "wake them up" than see another horse suffer. And although I will probably be wasting my breath, I will know that I did my part by speaking up for an animal that can't speak for itself. I will sleep just fine tonight.

 

I LOVE your "BIG girl panties" Keep putting them on!!!

 

 

I have been waiting ages to use that emoticon, thank you (yes, I am am sad)

 

Seriously, this is not arrogance.

 

A question of likes/dislikes is not the same as this. If it were merely that the horse was not to Parmela's taste and she did not want her name on the subsequent foals pedigree, then just don't sell them the mare and keep your opinion to yourself. But something that is potentially damaging to the mare and the foal?

I would speak up.

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[Rockin Angels]

AND THEN SOME MORE

Parmela, if you are going to tell these people that their horses are inferior and not up to your standards, please also tell them that there are others that would never insult them, or tell them how to spend their money, or what the "best" horse to have is .

I sincerely hope they are not aware of this forum, and are not watching what people are saying about the horse/horses they raise and own.

Please let them know that they are kind people in this horse industry, who will welcome inquires of any type. We welcome everyone( including people on this forum who do not share my views) everyone is treated with great respect. Let them know that if I, or anyone representing my farm (Lil Hoofbeats) (and many others that have PM me) ever visits, via website or in person, that I/We will be nothing but grateful, that they took the time to show me their farm/stock.

Please let them know that their are people who will welcome them, not judge, not criticize, and not condemn them for their choice in horses.

I am proud to be one of those people!!!!!!

Julie Sherrill

Lil Hoofbeats Farm

It's not about standards or insults- it's ethics

Jane I don't think the people in question "publicly invited" a critique of their stock or asked Parmela if she thought her horse would be a good match for their stallion etc.. if I missed that I'm sorry. If they asked your advice then by all means tell them "I do not think they would make a good match". If they want to know why the two horses would not make a good breeding match then tell them that the neck is too short, head is too big… if they are thick skinned enough to inquire further about your feelings then point out that some of the conformation flaws are what you see as dwarf characteristics. Be open for discussion IF THEY ASK.

I very much agree with the reasoning behind this post. I hold Parmela in great esteem as far as her integrity and breeding program goes However my feelings are if you want to critique the people's stallion as part of the buying process then you should make that known on your sales advertising…maybe "Please be aware that I will scrutinize your breeding program for dwarfism characteristics before considering placing this mare." ..or something to that effect.

I would not put a horse up for public sale and then have to worry about who was going to inquire. To wait until someone inquires and then dig around and pick apart their horses, make it public then inform them they are breeding dwarf traits would come off as being arrogant in any scenario I can see.

I believe when they inquired about purchasing her mare that gave her the invitation. I also don't see anywhere in this thread that she picked apart their horses. She shows a just concern about 1 horse, a horse her mare could possibly be bred to and therefore she has every right to consider the consequences should she sell in this situation.

I find this entire initial post disturbing. What entitles any of us to critique another's breeding program, if we are not asked to do so. The most important aspect in selling horses is to sell them to someone that will take good care of them...ie...feeding, worming, vet, farrier, vaccination, dentistry....etc..... I am most in agreeance with Debby and Julie with my opinion on this. Who is to say what will happen to this mare in the future. You may sell her to what you "think" is the perfect home only for them to not care for her properly and pass her off to the first people who come along and then those people breed her to a dwarf or whatever else. Honestly...if I were that concerned...I would keep the mare. When we sell horses, their future is out of our hands. Yes...we "try" to put them in the best home that we can....but it doesn't always work out that way. Best of luck to all involved with this. I also hope the potential buyers are not members of LilBeginnings. I would be crushed at first and then furious later if I found this post and knew that I was the one in question.

You cannot foresee every situation but when you can you should be proactive about it. I have given horses to a relative and IF I see that horse is not being taken care of I WILL TAKE IT BACK. I don't think that is a concern but if it ever came to that I wouldn't hesitate.

My point in this is....To me, personally, I would rather tell a white lie...that won't harm anyone and say...I have someone ahead of you looking at the mare. I will let you know. That is all it would take. But I would NOT post this on a public forum and risk the hurt feelings of "whoever these people are". The benefit is not worth the risk IMO. If they are tech savvy enough to have a website, then most likely they know about and have visited or even frequent LilBeginnings. I will never knowingly risk hurting anyone like that. I know lots of people praise certain practices and beliefs and that is OK....this forum is full of supportive people. But the praise is not worth the risk in this situation...JMHO.

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One white lie would lead to another white lie then where would it end? I personally don't want to deal with anyone who won't be honest with me. When I catch someone in a lie it just makes me question their integrity. Properly handled no one gets hurt but Parmela still has her integrity and I would value that. If they frequent LilBeginnings and see this thread they also have a right to defend their opinions, and they are entitled to those opinions however I still hope that this thread would educate them and perhaps change their minds about the proposed breeding of a horse because they WANT a dwarf.

If more breeders had Parmela's integrity, we might be further ahead in lessening the impact of the dwarf gene upon our breed. The answer is simple: put the welfare of the horse FIRST.

Well said!!!!!

But isn't it human nature to be curious? Are you saying that you wouldn't do any sort of home check when you sell a horse? You also can't tell me that you haven't come across a breeders website and thought to yourself "Man, I really like those horses" or vise versa. That's still a critique in my opinion. Everyone who goes on a breeders website critiques it. From the actual horses to the background to the font, it will be critiqued (even if only mentally) by everyone who clicks on it.

Parmela, I would just tell them that someone else had interest before them, or that you have decided to retain her for your breeding program for a little bit. Good for you for not wanting to sell your mare to a home that might produce dwarfs, knowingly or not.

Then if she says this and they see the mare perhaps still for sale down the road and they inquire again what does she then tell them? Another lie?????

See I've not posted in years and all of the sudden I have diarrhea of the mouth (fingers) LOL

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[Minimor]

But isn't it human nature to be curious? Are you saying that you wouldn't do any sort of home check when you sell a horse? You also can't tell me that you haven't come across a breeders website and thought to yourself "Man, I really like those horses" or vise versa. That's still a critique in my opinion. Everyone who goes on a breeders website critiques it. From the actual horses to the background to the font, it will be critiqued (even if only mentally) by everyone who clicks on it.

I'm not saying that one shouldn't look at the website. And sure, I've looked at plenty of websites and sometimes thought NICE and sometimes thought EWWWWW. And yes, I already said that I could very well decide not to sell a horse to some certain individual for whatever reason. Do all the "mental critiques" you want, but what is the point in going out of your way to be rude (though some call it "blunt" or "straightforward" or even "honest") to someone, a stranger, who inquires on a horse you've advertised for sale? It serves no purpose other than to make you feel proud of yourself.
If someone comes to you wanting advice or assistance in evaluating their horses, then perhaps some blunt advice will benefit.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Thank you Rockin Angels for taking time to read, and post on this thread.

Let me clarify for you, that it looks like everyone agrees with Parmela on the fact that she has the right not to sell or to sell to whom ever she pleases. It is her horse and she can decide what to do with it. I am pretty sure everyone thinks that is correct. Parmela s integrity is impeccable, and i commend her for not putting her horse in a compromising position!

The issue here is should she take it upon herself the "educate" these people by telling them their horses/horses are not quality? The way i read this thread is these people did NOT ask her opinion of their breeding program, they only inquired about a horse that she put up for public sale.

At what point does anyone become expert enough to tell someone else their horses in inferior?

Is is when I raise a National Top Ten? As stated, we all know World Champions that have produced dwarfism.

Is it when I have produced, nice foals?

Is it when i get a breeder of the year award?

When i visit someones website i critique every horse i see. However i have never felt compelled to email them and tell them their horses are substandard, and they have an inferior breeding program. If i did this i am not sure at what point my integrity would intertwine with my arrogance. It is NEVER a good idea to make ones self feel good at someone elses expense.

Again, everyone agrees here that Parmela is making a correct choice by not selling to this breeder. The disagreement is whether it is ok to tell them( or anyone i guess) that their horses are inferior and their breeding program is substandard. What would give me or anyone else the right to do this?

 

[Rockin Angels]

Thank you Rockin Angels for taking time to read, and post on this thread.

Let me clarify for you, that it looks like everyone agrees with Parmela on the fact that she has the right not to sell or to sell to whom ever she pleases. It is her horse and she can decide what to do with it. I am pretty sure everyone thinks that is correct. Parmela s integrity is impeccable, and i commend her for not putting her horse in a compromising position!

 

The issue here is should she take it upon herself the "educate" these people by telling them their horses/horses are not quality? The way i read this thread is these people did NOT ask her opinion of their breeding program, they only inquired about a horse that she put up for public sale.

At what point does anyone become expert enough to tell someone else their horses in inferior?

Is is when I raise a National Top Ten? As stated, we all know World Champions that have produced dwarfism.

Is it when I have produced, nice foals?

Is it when i get a breeder of the year award?

When i visit someones website i critique every horse i see. However i have never felt compelled to email them and tell them their horses are substandard, and they have an inferior breeding program. If i did this i am not sure at what point my integrity would intertwine with my arrogance. It is NEVER a good idea to make ones self feel good at someone elses expense.

Again, everyone agrees here that Parmela is making a correct choice by not selling to this breeder. The disagreement is whether it is ok to tell them( or anyone i guess) that their horses are inferior and their breeding program is substandard. What would give me or anyone else the right to do this?

 

As I previously stated "I believe when they inquired about purchasing her mare that gave her the invitation. I also don't see anywhere in this thread that she picked apart their horses. She shows a just concern about 1 horse, a horse her mare could possibly be bred to and therefore she has every right to consider the consequences should she sell in this situation. " So if I was in that situation I would simply state that although I appreciate the interest they have in my mare I would regretfully have to decline selling as their intention to breed for dwarfism is something I could not purposely chance placing my mare into that situation. I did not with that statement make a derogatory comment about their horses, none of them. I stated that the proposed pregnancy would be a jeopardy I would not place my mare into.

 

I also don't see how anyone reading this thread would take any one comment made and believe the intention was to as you say "make ones self feel good at someone elses expense". I'm not seeing the "feel good" at all?????

 

Additionally if I was thinned skinned (which I'm not) I could consider your opening remark condescending towards myself for posting. I've not noticed that you've not "Thanked" others for posting. It's totally how we interpret the writings of the poster and I believe that some have taken Parmela's original post out of context and I was clarifying for some as you graciously clarified for me.

 

As Suzanne posted yesterday "I would most likely say as little as possible while still being politely clear that no sale would occur. If they demanded a reason, I'd then be more specific. I'd allow them to save face, but I'd not allow then to buy my mare."

It's also not about being an expert it's ethics.

 

[Reble]

How would you handle this?

I'm generally not at a loss, but this one has stumped me.

Just wondering how you handled it and how everything turned out?

 

[Mona]

I agree with lil hoofbeats. I feel the same as you in that Parmela definitelyb has integrity and that is not where the "insult" (for lack of a better term) lies. I too agree that the problem is not that she won't sell her horse to these people...she (as do we all) have the right to inspect any/all prospective homes and refuse sales to any person, should there be some reason that one might feel uncomfortable with, in allowing a horse of theirs to go to that home. But I agree that it is the fact that Parmela is stating that the horse is a dwarf and has produced(one or more dwarfs)

I totally disagree that just because a person contacts another about a sale horse, that it is an invitation for the seller to tear apart all of the horses in the breeding program of a potential buyer. Like others have said, sure, you may think it, but it is pretty bold to think it is your duty to start cutting down their efforts. Sure, if they ask, then fine, but otherwise, I would think not.

Also, we are all sitting here accepting the "fact" that the stallion in question is an actual dwarf. So our answers hinge on that, BUT, is Parmela seeing an actual full-blown dwarf or is it dwarf characteristics that she is basing these opinions on??

If an actual fully visible, no-mistaking it dwarf, and the people asked me why I won't sell to them, I would just explain that the welfare of my mares is of the utmost importance to me, and I feel that in your program she may be knowingly endangered due to the stallion being a dwarf. There are always risks with breeding anything, so you wouldn't want to add to that risk by her being bred by a dwarf knowing the severe foaling problems that can result, endangering the life of the mare even more. BUT, I sure don't think it would be called for to tell someone they have a dwarf as their herd sire if she feels he shows only characteristics.

I can see both sides to this, but treading carefully and tactfully would be best in my opinion. I mean really, how many of us would like to be in those shoes. You see this awesome mare for sale, inquire about it, only to have the seller come back and tell you they won't sell to you because you are using a dwarf as a herd sire. I know many will say they wish when they started someone had been so blunt with them, but I think being that nwbie, and not using the hindsight to view it from, are two different things. We all progress (or at least that should be our goal as breeders) in quality of our horses as we move forward in our breeding programs,

 

[disneyhorse]

I think that it is just fine to be bluntly honest... A seller has every right to evaluate the possible home for their horses and give the reason to deny the buyer.

I remember a few years ago I wanted a Modern Shetland colt. One seller flat out told me she wouldn't sell me a stallion, only a gelding or mare, because I showed as an amateur and hadn't shown a Modern stallion before. (mind you, I handled four Andalusian stallions in my barn that lived there.) She simply felt they were too hot and she always sent them to her trainer.

I was kind of offended, but found a colt somewhere else that is loved greatly <3

 

[horsehug]

Excellent post, Mona. I of course agree it is totally an owner's right to choose to sell or not to sell to anyone and to try to find a very kind way to state that.

But I have been following this thread and also wondering if these breeders specifically say they breed dwarfs and are fine with it, and also if their stallion is an actual dwarf or just to "some" might appear to have characteristics.

Susan O.

 

[Flying minis]

Ok, so I'm going to step in and say something. There are a lot of assumptions being made - primarily that the buyer KNOWS that their stallion is a dwarf - and KNOWS that is a congenital fault and all the issues that go with it.

When I got my first minis I was VERY lucky. I had no idea that there were dwarves, or any of the complications that go with them. I thought the smaller the better. I purchased 2 minis at auction who thankfully were good quality animals. AFTER that I started learning about the breed, and realized how lucky I was, and how many people that are "breeding" minis don't have information - good example, a neighbor stopped by one day and saw my one mini in the pasture and asked if she was for sale, because he didn't "have a black and white mare for black and white babies." And then he was upset that I wouldn't sell a finished driving horse for less than $500, saying "I could get as many as I want for $50 each."

What I'm saying is, IF these people KNOW they are breeding for congenital faults in dwarves, or purposely doing so, to heck with worrying whether you insult them - I would say I don't agree with breeding dwarves, and don't want my mare being used for that.

HOWEVER, if they are not aware, this is a GREAT opportunity to very politely and in a very gentle manner EDUCATE them regarding miniatures, dwarves, and the consequences.

That requires some questioning to determine their knowledge level and intent, then take the action that seems appropriate.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Thanks for all the responses! I do appreciate all the advice on approach and opinions.

I did get a second inquiry from the person. They did indicate breeding as a potential use for her, but did not mention a specific stallion. And it's possible that someone would buy a mare with the intentions of breeding to a specific outside stallion (not on their site) but that's not as likely as breeding to the stallion you have 24/7 access to. So, since I do feel a responsiblity to the horses, I took that as an opportunity to diccuss my concerns if they were planning to breed her to the stallion shown on their site. I said that, based on the pictures available on the site, that I felt the stallion carried the dwarf gene. I asked if they had knowledge of what that was and that my reasoning for thinking so was the length of his back compared to the length of his legs (extreme case here) and then the picture of two of his foals, which appear to have characteristics as well. I explained the danger to a mare when trying to foal a dwarf foal and also the need to not perpetuate the genetic defect.

Their response was not one of anger or shock. It was of denial.

They do not see it and described their stallion as "perfect in every way." They said he's even been sold and will be leaving this summer so want to breed a couple more mares to him before he goes. And of course, he's been sold "internationally."

There was more to the exchange than that, but those are the highlights. I personally believe they know and don't care or even like it. I also don't think they are interested in any education as they clearly already know all they need to. But at least I can live with myself because I feel like I tried. I can't control them but I can at least try to educate.

I left it at she is not a good fit for them and if they decide they would like further information so they could investigate dwarfism on their own I'd be happy to send them some links. I wished them well.

So, for those folks who don't feel like I had the right to offer my opinion on their stallion, all I can say is we agree to disagree. But I am also the person who will, and has, stopped my car on the side of the road when I see a skinny horse and start nosing around until I can find out who owns it and what is going on. Animals can't speak for themselves and I happen to have a big mouth

so I often volunteer my services.

Thanks to all who responded.