AppyLover2
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A question for those of you who show
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Littleum
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Care for some cheese with your whine?
It happened 30+ years ago. The trend has ALWAYS been away from the "Thewell" pony look. Always, always, ALWAYS. The breed standard has always been the smallest, most perfect horse (type), and never the Thewell pony look. Never.
If someone happens to like that look, fine, but it has NEVER been the breed standard and NEVER been favored in the show ring. As for why you see stockier types winning 20-30 years ago, it's because that's what we had to work with. It wasn't because they were "in" and the Miss Kentucky types were out- we didn't have Miss Kentucky types at that time. If we had had, they sure as heck would have been winning! This breed has come so amazingly far in the past 20 years.
People like to apply the QH label to short, fat, dumpy, coarse and lumpy. It's nicer then calling a spade a spade and saying a horse is dumpy. "OH no, he's a QH type"- no, he's just plain dumpy and coarse. I wish people would STOP tossing around the dang "QH" label so dang much because it gives the QH type a bad name. I'd say "Thewell type" but that'd be an insult to standard UK shetlands.
I also wish people would stop labeling everything with tiny bones "Refined"- that is NOT refinement! I've seen horses with teeny little bones who are as coarse as the day is long. Refinement is NOT bone size. Refinement is polish and quality.
Yes, refined horses win- but refined means just that- REFINED. Polished. Elegant. Finished. Beautiful. Refined does NOT mean small bones or like it's going to blow over in a strong wind.
I seen plenty of QH type winning. Cross Country Call Me Sir was very much a QH type. He was very muscular, very rectagular yet very balanced, with a gorgeous, long well-shaped neck that, no, did not come 90 degrees out of his shoulder but was set on beautifully and just a gorgeous face, great hip and refined bone. In my mind he was very much the ideal QH type Miniature. There have been plenty of others. And they win, and they are gorgeous.
If Thewell type ponies are someone's preference, I respectfully submit they're in the right breed to find that type, and the wrong breed for show ring success.
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The Simple Life Farm
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I feel that the judges determine what "type" of minis are being shown. You don't want to spend $100+ per horse at a show to try to convince the judges that you want them to start pinning a quarter horse type instead. If you are wanting to really compete in halter classes, then you need to show the type of horses that judges are placing. It is not always the most refined horses placing everytime. Just because a horse is very refined, doesn't mean it will always be pinned a grand champion every time.
ruffian
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"Care for some cheese with your whine?
MEOW!!
I don't consider this a whine, but an intelligent question. This person doesn't show, says they dont' show, and was curious!.
I've been in minis over 25 years, and yes that's what the breed was back then. People were finding small ponies (or horses!) and many were breeding mainly for smallest size. As breeders learned more, and shows became more popular, people started looking for an animal that had, in their opinions, prettier heads, longer necks, etc. As the shows grew, you could see what other folks had, and the breed evolved into the refined animal most popular today. I say most popular because it's all individual choice. Some like the super refined - arabian, morgan type, and others like the stockier quarter horse type.
The trend now is towards the Arabian type. Could easily have gone the other way - quarter horse type. So since the trend is the Arabian type, and most people show those types, that's what the judges see and become most acquainted with.
Now - the triangle above that tail -- THAT's just plain silly, but EVERYBODY does it!!!
MEOW!!
I don't consider this a whine, but an intelligent question. This person doesn't show, says they dont' show, and was curious!.
I've been in minis over 25 years, and yes that's what the breed was back then. People were finding small ponies (or horses!) and many were breeding mainly for smallest size. As breeders learned more, and shows became more popular, people started looking for an animal that had, in their opinions, prettier heads, longer necks, etc. As the shows grew, you could see what other folks had, and the breed evolved into the refined animal most popular today. I say most popular because it's all individual choice. Some like the super refined - arabian, morgan type, and others like the stockier quarter horse type.
The trend now is towards the Arabian type. Could easily have gone the other way - quarter horse type. So since the trend is the Arabian type, and most people show those types, that's what the judges see and become most acquainted with.
Now - the triangle above that tail -- THAT's just plain silly, but EVERYBODY does it!!!
Riverdance
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Have you been to a Quarter Horse Halter show lately? They are also refined (finished, polished).
There is no place for the clunky thick bodied, thick boned horse in the show ring today. 20/30 years ago, yes, only because that is what the Miniature horse people had to work with.
You may be one that likes that style, fine enjoy it, but do not expect people to change because a few like the thick looking horses. Someone with a trained eye is NOT going to be the slightest bit attracted to it.
As for Quarter Horse and Arabian style. You have judges that not only do Miniatures, but they are also Arabian, Morgan, Quater horse and Paint judges. They are going to tend to pick a Mini that is more along the lines of what they like. A paint judge will most likely pick a paint Miniature, Quarter horse judge, a more Quarter Horse style, Arabina judge and Arabian style, etc. So, learn your judges and try to go to the shows that will have your kind of style. Still, there are very few judges who judge at the National and World level who are going to pick thick bodied coarse horses.
I have found that there are some local judges who do Minis who will pick the coarser horse, but these judges would never be asked to judge at the World or National level.
If you want to show your horses, you will have to learn what a good show horse needs to look like and change your breeding program accordingly.
There is no place for the clunky thick bodied, thick boned horse in the show ring today. 20/30 years ago, yes, only because that is what the Miniature horse people had to work with.
You may be one that likes that style, fine enjoy it, but do not expect people to change because a few like the thick looking horses. Someone with a trained eye is NOT going to be the slightest bit attracted to it.
As for Quarter Horse and Arabian style. You have judges that not only do Miniatures, but they are also Arabian, Morgan, Quater horse and Paint judges. They are going to tend to pick a Mini that is more along the lines of what they like. A paint judge will most likely pick a paint Miniature, Quarter horse judge, a more Quarter Horse style, Arabina judge and Arabian style, etc. So, learn your judges and try to go to the shows that will have your kind of style. Still, there are very few judges who judge at the National and World level who are going to pick thick bodied coarse horses.
I have found that there are some local judges who do Minis who will pick the coarser horse, but these judges would never be asked to judge at the World or National level.
If you want to show your horses, you will have to learn what a good show horse needs to look like and change your breeding program accordingly.
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Littleum
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Yes, it was a meow moment.
I'm really sick of people blaming judging or fads or trends for why their horses won't win (in theory or in practice) when in fact, honestly, the problem is the horse is just not a show horse, and it has zero to do with judges, fads or trend. I am not saying the OP is doing this- they have clearly stated this is what they have been told, my commentary is directed at the people supplying the OP with this information, and anyone else who indulges in "type bias"
How many times have we seen it on this forum? Someone posts a picture of a coarse, thick Mini and everyone says "Oh, he's a stock type, he won't do well"- no, he's coarse and squat and his type has zero to do with his show potential. Stock types do just fine in the show ring, it's just easier to blame "type" instead of "my horse just isn't show ring material" .
Slapping a "QH" or "stock type" label just does a disservice to the stocktypes by giving them a bad name. Kind of like the "teaser" thread- calling a stallion a "teaser stallion" implies (in a lot of minds) that the stallion isn't actually worthy of breeding when in fact you might just be using a stallion as a teaser because he's better with the ladies then your other stallion.
The OP might have a barnfull of beautiful stocktypes that in fact would do amazingly well in the show ring, and he/she is operating under a gross misconception.
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Keep in mind the goal of every breeder is to improve the miniature horse (or it should be) Then when you bring your horse in front of the judge for a halter class you are basically asking the judges opinion to weather this horse is good enough to breed.
So yes we have gone a long way from even 10 years ago. Now they are getting better necks, nicer heads, better hips, better movement. The problem is a lot of stockier horses are short or wide necks, small hips etc.
I have seen certain judges place more stock type minis over the finer, leggier ones. It always causes a stir LOL but it does happen.
I still have never seen a miniature that really looks like an arab but its a common theme in ads etc.
It is nice though that in ASPC they have the foundation division for people who love the stockier ponies
As to when it happened....I know when I started showing 8 years ago the finer boned leggier minis were already winning over the stockier ones but you did see stockier ones place much more often then you do now
So yes we have gone a long way from even 10 years ago. Now they are getting better necks, nicer heads, better hips, better movement. The problem is a lot of stockier horses are short or wide necks, small hips etc.
I have seen certain judges place more stock type minis over the finer, leggier ones. It always causes a stir LOL but it does happen.
I still have never seen a miniature that really looks like an arab but its a common theme in ads etc.
It is nice though that in ASPC they have the foundation division for people who love the stockier ponies
As to when it happened....I know when I started showing 8 years ago the finer boned leggier minis were already winning over the stockier ones but you did see stockier ones place much more often then you do now
Jesi
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I honestly can't believe how you just got scorned for asking a question.
..Kinda makes me scared to ask my own questions. It may not be worth it! LOL
Anyways, in my opinion the more refined a mini is, the more it looks like a miniature horse, and not a pony. The stockier minis don't exactly look like QH's, but more like ponies.
Now, like I said, that's just my opinion, so I do hope to stay out of the insults please
..Kinda makes me scared to ask my own questions. It may not be worth it! LOL
Anyways, in my opinion the more refined a mini is, the more it looks like a miniature horse, and not a pony. The stockier minis don't exactly look like QH's, but more like ponies.
Now, like I said, that's just my opinion, so I do hope to stay out of the insults please
stormy
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Wow,
Harsh, that was totally uncalled for! Thought this was a place for information and experiance to be offered???
I have seen some very narrow chested, 0 heartgirth, bird bone miniature horses place top of their class. Some call that refinement. Fortunately not all judges go for the same type!
Also keep in mind when you bring up quarter horses, over refinement very nearly brought the breed to it's knees literally by putting too light bone and feet on a well muscled horse. Calling a horse quarter type does not mean, short, fat and clunky!
Miniature horses are by definition supposed to be conformationally like their bigger cousins, horse like, balanced, atheletic.. The current trend in AMHA seems to me to be an arab type look, in AMHR a saddlebred type. This is my opinion only, take it or leave it. Performance classes offer opportunities for other types to shine, most miniatures of good conformation, reqardless of type, can find a place to excell in the show ring.
Remember trends are just that and tend to change over the years.....we shall see where the mini goes in the future! My personal feeling is with the growth of interest in performance and CDE a little more substance (not coarseness) will be the preference in the future.
Harsh, that was totally uncalled for! Thought this was a place for information and experiance to be offered???
I have seen some very narrow chested, 0 heartgirth, bird bone miniature horses place top of their class. Some call that refinement. Fortunately not all judges go for the same type!
Also keep in mind when you bring up quarter horses, over refinement very nearly brought the breed to it's knees literally by putting too light bone and feet on a well muscled horse. Calling a horse quarter type does not mean, short, fat and clunky!
Miniature horses are by definition supposed to be conformationally like their bigger cousins, horse like, balanced, atheletic.. The current trend in AMHA seems to me to be an arab type look, in AMHR a saddlebred type. This is my opinion only, take it or leave it. Performance classes offer opportunities for other types to shine, most miniatures of good conformation, reqardless of type, can find a place to excell in the show ring.
Remember trends are just that and tend to change over the years.....we shall see where the mini goes in the future! My personal feeling is with the growth of interest in performance and CDE a little more substance (not coarseness) will be the preference in the future.
I might be stepping on toes and this is only my opnion, Im sorry but I have to say...
WOW!!!
Is right! makes it sound like you are one of them folks that you avoid at the shows, not look up too. I'm new to showing and have tons of questions, but always afraid to ask since it probabbly has been asked here in the past. Now I defently see why I dont ask and just try to figure it out on my own. Dose'nt pay to ask. I've even tried to ask for advice at the local fun shows and get the same attitude there as well, not by everybody but by the folks who think that them & their horses are better than everyones elses. You would think you would like to help and explain stuff not yell at someone who has taken intrest in the miniatures even if it has been discused before. I know I happily like to explain what I know to someone who is newer than I and have answered many question hundreds of times and it don't bother me.
Like I always say... there's politics in everything INCLUDING HORSES!
I could post a photo of my stallion and ask what you think of him and if he would be a good halter horse and Im sure he would be picked apart just because of a bad photo. But I would have to say, out of all the halter classes he has been in... He's taken 1st place in EVERY single one of them but 1. I think you would have to see a certin horse in person to judge it and not if its not good as yours just because someone else has been in miniatures longer than others. I see fat little thick horses win halter at fun shows all the time. Their good looking horses, and its a fun show! TO HAVE FUN! Not to scare someone to not think that their horse has no chance of winning because of refinment. I think that even if someone spends LOTS & LOTS of $$$ on showing, I personally belive that a lot of folks have forgotten that a show is to go and have fun with your horse and friends, not just win or loose and go home. You should feel proud of what you win even if it's a 1st, 2nd or 6th place. If your there to just win and be upset if you dont take a 1st, then it sounds to me that your way to wrapped up in and yourself and your not having any fun.
WOW!!!
Like I always say... there's politics in everything INCLUDING HORSES!
I could post a photo of my stallion and ask what you think of him and if he would be a good halter horse and Im sure he would be picked apart just because of a bad photo. But I would have to say, out of all the halter classes he has been in... He's taken 1st place in EVERY single one of them but 1. I think you would have to see a certin horse in person to judge it and not if its not good as yours just because someone else has been in miniatures longer than others. I see fat little thick horses win halter at fun shows all the time. Their good looking horses, and its a fun show! TO HAVE FUN! Not to scare someone to not think that their horse has no chance of winning because of refinment. I think that even if someone spends LOTS & LOTS of $$$ on showing, I personally belive that a lot of folks have forgotten that a show is to go and have fun with your horse and friends, not just win or loose and go home. You should feel proud of what you win even if it's a 1st, 2nd or 6th place. If your there to just win and be upset if you dont take a 1st, then it sounds to me that your way to wrapped up in and yourself and your not having any fun.
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AppyLover2
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WHOAAAAA Littleum.
My first three words were
OK going back to read other responses now. Just wanted to say I thought you unfairly jumped on your soap box when I was simply asking a question.
Edited to add: OK I've read the rest of the posts and want to thank those of you who responded to my question in the same spirit it was asked.....which was to help a 67 year old woman understand something she (obviously) didn't understand.
Thanks again!!
Edited again: Guess I made another mistake (my first one was obviously asking the question in the first place) when I used the term "arabian". I think we can all agree that there are definite differences in body types in our minis. When I used "arabian or thoroughbred" I was simply referring to those horses who are slim, streamlined, leggy and sleek. I was simply referring to body type.
Just thought I'd add that when you guys post pictures of your winning minis I sit here practically drooling. If I was 20 years younger, I'd be right out there in the show ring with you.
My first three words were
I only read the first response to my question, but I gotta say I sure didn't expect someone to say I was whining. What in the world would I have to whine about???? Maybe I should have further explained that the reason I don't show ISN'T because I don't have the kind of horses that are placing. There are several reasons I don't show and that isn't one of them.
OK going back to read other responses now. Just wanted to say I thought you unfairly jumped on your soap box when I was simply asking a question.
Edited to add: OK I've read the rest of the posts and want to thank those of you who responded to my question in the same spirit it was asked.....which was to help a 67 year old woman understand something she (obviously) didn't understand.
Edited again: Guess I made another mistake (my first one was obviously asking the question in the first place) when I used the term "arabian". I think we can all agree that there are definite differences in body types in our minis. When I used "arabian or thoroughbred" I was simply referring to those horses who are slim, streamlined, leggy and sleek. I was simply referring to body type.
Just thought I'd add that when you guys post pictures of your winning minis I sit here practically drooling. If I was 20 years younger, I'd be right out there in the show ring with you.
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barnbum
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Thanks for asking this question AppyLover2--I enjoyed reading the answers, okay, most of the answers.
Interesting to hear about the comparisons to big horses and what refined means to folks.
Interesting to hear about the comparisons to big horses and what refined means to folks.
Now that's a great goal.
S
StarRidgeAcres
Guest
Exactly! Haven't seen one yet!
Hey, it's okay to ask a question, even though some think it is a crime not to be at their level of showing. We do need experts on the subject; however, they need to work on their manners, no need for hateful comments being slung at someone asking just a question. To me, refined isn't the thin boned or skinny horses, but the muscles are refined and toned, and there are little things on the conformation that stand out to a judge, such as the neck not arching, legs not straight enough, etc. But it is to bad that people's attitudes cannot be as pretty as their horses, really takes the fun out of things, doesn't it? AND, not all people that show have that attitude! Take care, and hug them little horses every chance you get.
Please do not stop asking questions! Thats what this forum is for! Just keep in mind you will get lots of different opinions
I hope I didnt come off harshly as I didnt mean it harshly at all!
Someday I hope we can all just be happy saying my miniature horse looks like a miniature horse LOL.
Refinement to me is the total package. Refined head (not coarse or overly large) neck, smooth body, finer boned etc I will hopefully have some pics coming soon of our last show so I can post them
I for sure am not a show expert but I hope if any of you see me at a show you feel free to come say hi and chat!
I hope I didnt come off harshly as I didnt mean it harshly at all!
Someday I hope we can all just be happy saying my miniature horse looks like a miniature horse LOL.
Refinement to me is the total package. Refined head (not coarse or overly large) neck, smooth body, finer boned etc I will hopefully have some pics coming soon of our last show so I can post them
I for sure am not a show expert but I hope if any of you see me at a show you feel free to come say hi and chat!
dreaminmini
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I am new to showing, my first show is coming up soon. I'm excited but nervous too. I agree that some of these answers on here have been a little harsh even though the poster specifically said they do not show thereby NOT whining but asking a simple question. I have been very lucky that when I decided to start into minis that some very nice people were there to guide, recommend and advise me. I will always be very thankful to them. I have also since met several nice people. There are very nice people that show but there are also the ones that aren't. It is everywhere in any kinds of competitions. Ignore the snotty ones and enjoy the nice ones and there are plenty of experienced people who are more than happy to help. Do it to have fun and enjoy your minis, I also enjoy it because it has turned into a family affair, and we play with them together.
Don't let the actions of a few stop you from posting.
Don't let the actions of a few stop you from posting.
Littleum
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To me this sounded VERY hostile. I bolded what really flipped my switch.
I still stand by what I said- there is no trend. Stock types win all the time. "Stock type" HAS to stop being a nice little bandaid people throw out to avoid saying a horse is just dumpy. We have to stop using the "stock type" excuse, throwing stock types under the bus and just start saying a horse is not show material. We have to start being honest with people that QUALITY (refinement) is the issue in the show ring, NOT type.
Saying a horse is the "wrong type" is just avoiding the issue of saying the horse is not good enough to win. But we don't want to say that, because that might hurt someone's feelings. It also doesn't do our breed a lick of good.
For the record, I have no idea what the OP has out in their barn. They could have the most beautiful collection of stock types that they're keeping at home because they've been told "stock types just don't win" That would be crummy.
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Little Bits
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I am a newbie so maybe a little outside perspective may make some since.
I think what you would be referring to would be called breed evolution. In the last 25 years horses have been breed to into refinement in order to get the smaller size. That is not to say there is anything wrong with the "QH" style horse. I think people were aiming to have smaller horses so they became more refined.
I like all styles of minis, but I would rather see horses with the best confirmation win the class, but the thing is instead of judges looking for correctness they go with the style and throw good confirmation and breed specifications out the window. They go by there own preference and then the breed gets stereo typed. Judges should be unbiased but unfortunatly there are not always looking for the best horse but personal preference.
That is just what I have seen not with minis but in other breeds as well.
Also there is no such thing as a stupid question so please continue to ask away. That is how people learn. If no one asked questions how dumb would we be.
Also the post on the whinning was very classless and I thought I was on my racehorse forum. Play nice.
I think what you would be referring to would be called breed evolution. In the last 25 years horses have been breed to into refinement in order to get the smaller size. That is not to say there is anything wrong with the "QH" style horse. I think people were aiming to have smaller horses so they became more refined.
I like all styles of minis, but I would rather see horses with the best confirmation win the class, but the thing is instead of judges looking for correctness they go with the style and throw good confirmation and breed specifications out the window. They go by there own preference and then the breed gets stereo typed. Judges should be unbiased but unfortunatly there are not always looking for the best horse but personal preference.
That is just what I have seen not with minis but in other breeds as well.
Also there is no such thing as a stupid question so please continue to ask away. That is how people learn. If no one asked questions how dumb would we be.
Also the post on the whinning was very classless and I thought I was on my racehorse forum. Play nice.
