Would you buy a puppy that had been left "natural"

[Just Us N Texas]

When we had dobies, we left them au naturale. Our veterinarian told us they were less likely to be stolen if left that way. Those long tails could sure whip the heck out of you though. We have bred poodles (toys), and did dock their tales. With the Caine Corsos, we did not crop their ears, but when we got them, their dew claws and tails had already been docked. I don't mind tails being docked, and I would prefer dew claws being taken off, as I have seen dew claws grow into a leg. I can't and won't do ears though. I have had vets tell me it is very painful for a dog, and I don't want them to hurt if I can help it! I am glad their tails are docked, because the thickness of the tail is so large, I think innocent wagging could injure someone or something.

 

[anoki]

You can tell the difference between and undocked Pembroke and a Cardigan- which have tails anyway- without any problems at all.

I have to agree with rabbitsfizz here...since I was one who brought it up about the corgis and HOW to tell them apart if they both have tails!

I was flipping through the 2006 Australian WELSH CORGI hand book. This handbook has both Pems & Cardis in it and while looking at the pictures found one that at first glance was a cardigan (it had a tail), but when I actually LOOKED at it, it was definitely a pembroke!!!

I'm still on the fence about the whole docking, dew claw thing, but I really don't like the ear crop thing!!!

~kathryn

 

[minisaremighty]

You can tell the difference between and undocked Pembroke and a Cardigan- which have tails anyway- without any problems at all.

I have to agree with rabbitsfizz here...since I was one who brought it up about the corgis and HOW to tell them apart if they both have tails!

I was flipping through the 2006 Australian WELSH CORGI hand book. This handbook has both Pems & Cardis in it and while looking at the pictures found one that at first glance was a cardigan (it had a tail), but when I actually LOOKED at it, it was definitely a pembroke!!!

I know for probably 15 years, I just loved corgis and they all looked the same to me, but once I took a serious interest in them, it became very easy for me to see the differences.

 

[capall beag]

Yes, I must say I like all corgis but I LOVE the Cardi's!

I was going to import a beautiful boy from England a few years back.......not sure why I didn't?

I love their look with their tails!

 

[RainSong]

Docked or undocked, makes no difference to me.

Dewclaws are another story- I'll leave them, but keep an eye on them. My mother's dog, Muttly, who's an Aussie Shepherd/Mastiff cross, actually pulled one and had to have it removed, so they just pulled them all. Some dogs are better about it then others, I think- Muttly is a HUGE dog, and that may have contributed.

I don't do shows- so anything I bought would just be for pet, unless I (god forbid) decided to breed- and then I'd really just have to see. If I were showing, I don't know what I'd do...

I prefer natural (undocked), just because it's not needed. Some dogs DO end up needing tail docking- another dog of my mothers once had to have his tail docked because it got to a point where he couldn't feel the end of it from wacking it on stuff. It kept getting wounded, and eventually wasn't healing properly.

 

[sdmini]

For the most part it wouldn't bother me either way. Tails could be docked but ears I would prefer left natural. A good friend has Great Danes (does rescue) and almost all have big, soft floppy ears.

Dewclaws I'll admit in MY opinion is something that should be done. We did several litters a year at the clinic and although they would cry it always stopped the minute you put them back with the others, leading me to believe while likely momentary unpleasant it is not a truly horrible experience.

On the other hand we also did several dogs a year where the dewclaw had gotten caught and ripped on something and yes they were in lots of pain. Also, even though it was a reflection of owners not paying attention, we had several older dogs a year whose dewclaws grew back into themselves causing pain.

Surely by the numbers of dogs in our clientele the number of dogs that had issues with their dewclaws were far outnumbered by those that did not. I would still rather them done than not. To me it's no different than gelding a horse as there is going to be some discomfort to be expected afterwards but the good out weighs the bad.

 

[PaintedPromiseRanch]

: floppy ears and LONG tails here... NO DOCKING etc. heck i don't even trim a bridle path on my horses... i love the natural look for them too. it only takes an extra few seconds to smooth down the mane when you put the equipment on...

we have a JRT mix too but he looks all JRT, and he has a long tail. our rat terrier has a docked tail but it was done before we got her... i do NOT plan to dock the tail of any pup born here. :no: if people want docked tails, they can go get a puppy somewhere else!

our great dane has floppy ears and a huge long tail... and our standard warning when people come over is, watch her tail, because she won't! it does hurt when it whacks you (especially men LOL) but hey, i warned them to watch out!!

 

[lilhorseladie]

A JRT I think would be great natural. I have a Cocker spaniel who was left with the tail and I wouldn't go through that twice! She is a mess, that long hair gets in the way a lot. But a JRT would be clean on the back side and that wouldn't bother me a bit.

Dew claws I would do, because they can get caught on things and ripped out and it is just more humane to do it when they are puppies.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

My little dog is a Cocker X Bichon and she has the Cocker tail.

It is not Rocket Science, for God's sake- if the tail is fluffy you trim the HAIR- you do NOT cut off a dogs tail because it is messy- I cannot BELIEVE what people will be willing to put their dogs through because they are too lazy to look after them properly.

If you do not like the work don't have a dog.

Simple, really.

I always laugh when I hear people saying things like"Oh I would never have a Boxer with a tail their tails would hurt my legs"

Move- do not stand next to them.

Problem solved.

(And NEVER even THINK of owning a Staffordshire Bull Terrier!!!!)

Really you need to look at some of the things being said here and think hard about it.

A dog is born with a tail for a reason- it communicates with it for a start.

A Bitch uses her tail when she whelps.

My Dobe pups were walking around at ten days old- they used their tails to balance.

A ten day old pup does not know if it has a tail or not so it will try to use what you have lopped off- and fall over.

Most importantly for me, my undocked Dobes were still working Agility at an age when any docked dog would be finished- and Yes, I know this for a fact- I have watched Aussies in the ring trying to use their backs to balance themselves, it takes it's toll in later life, believe me.

I have absolutely NO interest in what anyone "preferred" in tails and ears and no patience with people who think they have a right to cut bits off an animal because they prefer it to look some other way.

We have NO rights here at all- the only right is of the animal to remain as it was born, as it was made.

Although it would be painfully simple to breed Dobes or Danes with prick ears- it was done here, but never took off because we prefer the ears floppy.

Boxers might be a little more difficult, but would not be impossible.

It is not possible to breed dogs without tails- people have tried and tried but it is not possible.

The very best you will get is an occasional couple of pups in a litter of weird tails.

Does this in itself not tell you something?????

 

[mininik]

It is not possible to breed dogs without tails- people have tried and tried but it is not possible.

Actually, several breeds DO have natural bob tails. Take the Catahoula Leopard Dog, for example. Natural bob tails (considered a fault in that breed mainly due to aesthetics) do crop up on occasion, but some breeders specifically breed those dogs for their natural bobs. Also, historically, the Pembroke Corgi was a breed with a natural bob tail.

Below is a link to a breeder of Boxers who successfully "reinvented" the Boxer to include a natural bob tail, thanks to a little (naturally bob-tailed) Pembroke Corgi:

http://www.boxerunderground.com/1998%20iss..._98/bobtail.htm

Of course, those are just a few examples. It is noted on one website I found that natural bob to natural bob breedings in Australian Shepherds may cause spinal defects in some offspring. Then there is the fact that within a breed with natural bob tails, not all puppies of bob tail crossings will be born with natural bobs. When people started practicing docking, it took the emphasis off of breeding for bob tail traits. Even so, many of these dogs are still bred for purposely, so it IS possible. There's no doubt that bob tail dogs are at a slight disadvantage when communicating with thier tails, but there are many ways in which dogs communicate to one another (including energy, stance, smell, etc.). I'm sure we've all seen plenty of naturally bobbed and even docked dogs living a good, happy life. Now that doesn't mean I'm pro-docking (I'm not), but I did feel I should respond to the sentence quoted above.

 

[Minimor]

I prefer the natural look in dogs. We adopted a puppy from the pound last year--she was supposedly a Rottie cross, and her tail was docked. We did NOT like the looks of that tailless rearend (first & probably last docked tail we will ever have) and as she grew up it became more & more apparent that the pup was more Lab than Rottie--basically we had a Lab with a docked tail and Rottie coloring.

I'm afraid that I fail to see the similarity between cosmetic surgery on ourselves, and cosmetic surgery on our dogs. What a person chooses to have done to themselves is all their own choice--at least I would hope that no one's spouse/friends/siblings/parents are forcibly dragging the person in & having them surgically altered to enhance or change their appearance. A dog has no choice in the cosmetic alterations done to him.

 

[capall beag]

Thanks for all the replies!

looks like there are plenty of people who like puppies left with "happy endings", love that Debs

:

However, probably most people who don't like the look haven't posted.

I do want to make the point that I have had previous litters docked, and had dew claws taken on other litters. I did not do this to be cruel or to suit my needs. I did it becuase I thought it was a requirement of breeding and selling pups.

I am not a cruel person and dearly love and respect my animals but I thought this was 'necessary'.

About 5 years ago my lab had a beautiful litter and I dutifully brought them to the vet to have their dewclaws removed at 3 days old. It was a horrendous experience, not really for the pups as much as for my dear dog, the Momma. She was frantic when they took her pups, really upset and she could hear their whimpers and she went berserk. It was her first litter and she was very protective of them. I drove home a blubbering mess apologizing to my dog through my tears. Then I looked at my injured pups and I was sick to my stomach. I called the stud dog owner and she said after breeding, owning, showing and being a well respected AKC judge for many yrs, she stopped taking off dewclaws years ago. She said her dogs had never been affected negatively in the showring or in the field by having dewclaws.

Well, I have never taken dewclaws off since, my personal decision, not for everyone, BUT I have never had any problem and I have jrt's that dig all day and race through thick cover :lol:

I now am feeling the same about docking........what benefit to the dog is there, my dogs that is, NONE.......so why do it?? My conclusion is I cannot justify it so I won't do it. There may be people who won't want to buy a puppy becuase they have their natural tail BUT that is life

:

I do want to make the point though just becuase you choose to dock your pups or take dewclaws is not a refelction of how you feel/care about your dog. IMO

I did not intend this to be a us/them debate just curious about it

:

 

[Magic]

I much prefer a "natural" dog to one who has had parts lopped off.

My Great Dane has wonderful floppy ears, I love them that way.

I can see that having dewclaws removed *could* be necessary, but I've never had a dog that ripped their dewclaws so hasn't been an issue for me personally.

Spaying and neutering is extremely important, IMHO, and can't be compared to cosmetic surgery.

 

[tagalong]

Spaying and neutering is extremely important, IMHO, and can't be compared to cosmetic surgery.

I agree. The comparison is ridiculous, IMHO.

runamuk - you say that s/n is not necessary for people who "know how to manage intact dogs"... HUH?

I have seen determined dogs outwit humans, padlocks and fences - and in the space of a couple of minutes, get tied.

If you have held shelter dogs as they have been put down as I have - I do not think you would be so cavalier about spaying and neutering. Overpopulation of dogs and cats is not an urban myth - it is all too real.