Would you buy a puppy that had been left "natural"

[capall beag]

GUESS my poll thing didn't work!

Q in the poll was

Would you buy a puppy that was not docked(if the breed standard norm is a docked tail) Y/N?

I know this can be a touchy subject for some, so I made it a poll topic!

Please feel free to add you opinion on this.

My opinion is that I would not care if the dog was left undocked. I see absolutely no reason to take dew claws, JMHO. I have always had gundogs and terriers and they have ripped nails off, more than once BUT never their dew claws!

I would NOT buy a puppy that had it's ears altered. Again, JMO but I think it is unnecessary and painful for the pup.

The reason I am doing this is because I plan to breed my jrt this Spring. It will be her second litter. Her last litter I docked the tails, after much thought, and left the dewclaws.

My vet did the job and the puppies didn't seem upset by it. However, this time around I am, once again, wondering should I do it.

This time I am leaning towards leaving them be!

There is no valid reason, other than cosmetic, to dock the jrt's nowadays, IMO.

My jrt had 8 pups, last year. All went to families, none will ever be used as hunting terriers and so they could function equally with or without their tail.................so I am wondering Why Do it??

I looked up where it was banned and a LOT of countries have banned it and I am thinking they have done so for a reason!

Well, I am just curious for other peoples views.

My biggest concern would be that people would not want the pups because their tails looked 'different', I don't want to deny the pups good homes because they may look 'funny' to potential buyers.

I hope to keep a female pup and certainly I would be very happy if she was completely "au natural"

Both my dogs have their tails docked but have their dew claws.

Thanks!

 

[Chamomile]

All my dogs have their dew claws and I've never had a problem with them.

If I was buying JRT I wouldn't care at all if they had a tail! I think that would add something for me... I like to be a bit different.

:

I have mini aussies and I've tossed this around as well. BUT I think I'll go ahead and dock them because I feel with their tails they look like a border collie or a sheltie. I have a bi-black female and people always think she is a border collie and she doesn't have a tail

: It drives me crazy!! They give me a weird look and I swear some of them don't believe me... sigh. That's one reason I don't think I'm cut out to be a breeder of dogs or horses

Oh so my vote is leave the tails on!!!! And the dew claws

:

 

[crponies]

I most certainly would prefer my dog to be unaltered for cosmetic reasons. My sister's JRT just had her first litter. All 3 of the boys were born with naturally short tails but the girl has a long one. I have tried to convince her that the puppy doesn't need her tail docked, but we'll see what she ends up doing. I am like you and see no reason for people to do these things just for looks.

 

[Warpony]

not only would I buy one left natural, I actually prefer it that way.

 

[runamuk]

Well my opinion is never popular but here goes..............I don't care either way. These procedures are no more elective than spay or neuter which are rarely done for health, they are done purely for convience because most people are too darn lazy to properly manage intact animals. Before you quote me the gospel on spay/neuter as a preventative of all these cancers let me tell you most of those studies come directly or indirectly from HSUS and PETA not from any real veterinary double blind studies.

And if we want to humanize this then we ought to ban botox, face lifts, collagen , boob jobs, braces, tummy tucks, circumcision and the whole lot of human elective surgeries.

I have been present for numerous docking and dew claw procedures and rarely do the pups yip, they often holler because they have been removed from mom and their littermates not because of the procedure. Yet I laid in the hospital in labor for hours during a busy birthing season and heard those little boys scream all out bloody murder while part of their little god given winky was lopped off...sans anethesia.....all in the name of esthetics.

So I don't care if a dog is natural or docked/cropped. It is a personal decision that should be made by each and every owner not by a government.

I far prefer NO dewclaws, have dealt with too many that were never cared for properly.

 

[minih]

Yes, I would buy a puppy left with what it was born with. I am looking at getting a boxer puppy at a later date ( I have an older peke who could not cope with a puppy) and I do not want the ears fixed at all. Just something about floppy ears that is a lot more loveable.

 

[minisaremighty]

My opinion is that unless the dog is being purchased for the purpose of going into the show ring, it's not necessary. If you know you are breeding only pets, then there is no real point in docking. If you KNOW you might have some show quality pups and have people waiting for show quality pups, then if you want to sell them as such, they will need to be docked.

Edited to add: I do plan on doing some showing and the breed I've chosen has docked tails. However, I just love floppy ears and would never choose to show a breed that has to have the ears cropped. I do NOT like the look of cropped ears and they are done at a much older age.

 

[Mona]

I am basing my answers on my past experiences only, with Boxers, and Great Danes. First off, to answer the original question about docked tails, yes, I wouold still buy a Boxer with a natural tail, however, if I had the choice between 2 identical pups, but one with a natual tail and dewclaws, and one docked tail and dewclaws removed, I would choose the docked tail and dewclaws removed pup. For me, that stumpy little tail wag really fits the breed because that is all I have personally known, and I love it that way. The dewclaws I also prefer removed, partially for safety, partially for appearance.

The ears...I have no problems whatsoever with buying a Boxer or a Great Dane pup with natural ears. I had the chance to have the ears cropped on my new baby Shimmer before I got her, and as much as I have often thought I would someday like to own a Boxer with cropped ears, I just couldn't bring myself to having them do it, and I told them no, I didn't want it done.

A couple reasons were that I once bought a Dane pup that the breeder had the ears cropped ears on, and they were so infected when we got him, there were pools of pus in his ear drums, and his ears smelled putrid. I took him to the vet immediately after getting him home, and started him on a course of antibiotics! I was never so disgusted with anything as I was with that! We ended up not keeping him due to other health issues(siezures) that he came with also...he was returned to the breeder.

So that is the one thing that keeps coming to mind, and also the pain they must experience with doing it at that age. I was also concerned that with the tender ears, and having to keep wrapping/unwrapping them, if it caused them pain, it may also make them somewhat head shy and scared of having their ears touched, and I didn't want that for her either. Also of concern to me was that they may do the wrong type of crop for my liking(more of a pet crop vs a more show type crop), and once they were cut, there would be no turning back, and the thought of having to look at a poor crop for the rest of her years also bothered me, so instead, I decided she would keep her beautiful little ears.

:

Shimmer is our 3rd Boxer...every one of them has had docked tails, and natural ears. Two Boxers came with dewclaws removed, and one had them, and we had them removed at the time of spaying. Molly(Boston Terrier) also had dewclaws which we had removed at time of spaying.

When it comes to the dogs, I feel it is all a matter of personal preference, and I would never hold it against a breeder nor owner, should they decide that they want to have it done, provided it is done properly, humanely, and by a knowledgeable person.

 

[Krickette]

Personally, I don't like a docked tail...just because it looks funny when they are wagging their bums ^^;

But I know there's reasons the tails were docked in the first place, and so on. But It wouldn't matter to me. Docked tails are a turn off, though, as far as I'm concerned. Never owned a dog with one. And as for dew claws, we remove our puppies', so they don't snag on things. It's easy to do by yourself, or we might not worry with it.

 

[mininik]

I own three dogs with docked tails, two of those with dewclaws removed, but wouldn't own another based on that. Truth be told, I prefer to see dogs left natural.

:

As for comparing docking, ear crocking and removal of dewclaws to spay and neuter, I must disgree with runamuk's sentiment. Alteration DOES decrease the chances of certain cancers, as reported by the American Veterinary Medical Association. Of course the HSUS and PETA say the same thing, but for good reason. Not only does alteration of pets tend to improve their long-term health and quality of life, but it also prevents unwanted litters and curbs certain behavioral problems associated with mating instincts.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I would never buy a puppy that HAD been docked- never have, never shall.

Evil, useless, POINTLESS tradition- tantamount to subjecting your children to cosmetic surgery!!!!

I shall have to get some of the Corgis scanned in- I have to find them though!!!

And, for the record I have shown these dogs.

Before the book was "open" I showed at unaffiliated shows- then I got cross and we got the rules changed!!

If you do not agree with a rule- just like HAVING to use a check rein- you get it changed- it is a simple as that.

In the long run there was little or no opposition since all we were doing was saying "let us try"- not "We HAVE to do it this way"

If the Judge did not like tails I got nowhere.

If the Judge didn't care I got judged.

If the Judge looked properly at the dog I won!!

Cropping ears is an EVIL awful thing to do to a dog you are supposed to love- I do not know how anyone could bear to deliberately hurt their animal like that, I really do not- I am not sure how I would cope if it were allowed over her.

The tail docking I have never considered cruel, per se.

Just incredibly stupid.

Sorry to climb on such a radical soapbox but I have been pounding this drum for - well, all my life really- since I was nine years old and failed to stop my cousin form docking my puppy in front of me, with a knife.

It took the pup half it's life to recover- it was a bad job, badly done, I know routine docking is not like that, but it started me off on a campaign that had just ended in this practise being banned by law in this country and many European ones, as of April 6th 2007 :aktion033: :cheeky-smiley-006:

The line I take is this- if you want a dog without a tail- BREED one- do NOT go into "topiary" with a living, feeling thing to make it look like that which YOU want.

How would it be if I though YOU would look better with an ear removed- would it be OK if I came and cut it off???

Emotive I know but, basically, and I apologize for using this as an example but it was classic- cutting the tails off your Aussies to stop them looking like Border Collies just makes my case for me- if you cannot tell the difference then there is something wrong with the breed!!!

You can tell the difference between and undocked Pembroke and a Cardigan- which have tails anyway- without any problems at all.

If the breed depends on it having it's tail removed to tell the difference then it is not a breed!!

A few of the Agility Aussies are being left undocked here, now (before the ban) as they do desperately need their tails for Agility- and there is no problem telling them form Collies- they are such glorious colours, for a start!!

However strongly you feel, either way, there is absolutely NO connection between routine neutering- done for a very good reason, and Docking- done for a humans vanity, no other reason whatsoever.

Explain ftp me how Gundogs can damage their tails in cover less thick than the kind my friends Hounds run through at top speed every time they hunt??

Explain to me how a Gundog can damage it's tail and yet my Dobes never do??

NEVER do- NEVER have.

My Dobes work cover as thick, often thicker that a Gundog, completely for their own pleasure- and they have damaged other bits- ears, paws, etc.

They have NEVER damaged a tail or a dewclaw!!

At the moment Gundogs- but only those that actually work- are exempt from our docking ban.

But we will come back to it in a couple of years and we will get it stopped.

And I can assure you there will be no more damage to tails than there is at the moment- docked tails get damaged occasionally , you know!!

OK I am getting down off my soapbox for now

:

 

[Jill]

I would buy a dog that was left "natural". I think I was "supposed" to weight my collie's ears so they'd "tip" over and while that probably wouldn't have hurt her, I could care less if her ears tip over

: She doesn't care, either :bgrin

As to spaying and neuturing, I do feel that is something owners should seriously consider for the health, welfare and happiness (less frustration) for their pets. All our dogs are spayed / neutured and ditto for the cats.

 

[bcody]

I prefer them natural. My standard schnauzer does have her tail and de claws done, but I had no choice in that. Her grandfather is imported and he has natural ears and tail, and being all natural has finnished his american champion. The breeder I got my girl friom (also a good friend) was also the first to stop cropping the ears and show them that way, and she did OK, under certain judges, of course she has beautiful dogs!

For the record, I think spaying and neutering is a healthy option for the dogs. When I worked at a breeding/show kennel there were so many dogs that had mammary tumors and cancer. I also had an unaltered male that got prostatic cancer. If spaying and neutering can prevent health problems, that is a good thing. Cropping does not prevent an health issues down the road.

 

[Warpony]

Well my opinion is never popular but here goes..............I don't care either way. These procedures are no more elective than spay or neuter which are rarely done for health, they are done purely for convience because most people are too darn lazy to properly manage intact animals. Before you quote me the gospel on spay/neuter as a preventative of all these cancers let me tell you most of those studies come directly or indirectly from HSUS and PETA not from any real veterinary double blind studies.

And if we want to humanize this then we ought to ban botox, face lifts, collagen , boob jobs, braces, tummy tucks, circumcision and the whole lot of human elective surgeries.

I have been present for numerous docking and dew claw procedures and rarely do the pups yip, they often holler because they have been removed from mom and their littermates not because of the procedure. Yet I laid in the hospital in labor for hours during a busy birthing season and heard those little boys scream all out bloody murder while part of their little god given winky was lopped off...sans anethesia.....all in the name of esthetics.

So I don't care if a dog is natural or docked/cropped. It is a personal decision that should be made by each and every owner not by a government.

I far prefer NO dewclaws, have dealt with too many that were never cared for properly.

About 30 years ago my grandmother made her living with her puppy mill. She had about 100 dogs, and put out massive numbers of pups all year around.

One summer I helped her do tails and dew claws on puppies that were 1 to 3 days old. They didn't flinch, or cry, or anything else. They didn't try to wriggle away, nothing. We picked up two pups at a time and kept them touching each other so they weren't afraid and they didn't even seem to notice that we were chopping parts off of them. I still don't think it is necessary for us to do it, though. I've had friends dogs have horrible dew claw accidents but most of my dogs have had them left intact with no problem at all, so I don't see a need to take them off unless they have a problem with them.

However, I don't think that human cosmetic surgeries are even remotely the same. We chose to do those TO OURSELVES, we don't force them on other people. If I get a tummy tuck it is because I want one, not because my husband had it to done to me whether I wanted it or not. Circumcision is a whole other topic completely, and I had to fight with doctors who tried to force me into signing a paper so they could circumcise my child if it happened to be a boy. I never signed that paper. Don't even get me started on that issue.

As far as spay/neuter... the AVMA is not the HSUS or PETA and they say the same thing about spay/neuter. You can't get pyometrea if you don't even have a uterus, you can't get testicular cancer if you don't have testicles. Pretty simple and straight forward. In combination with the pet over population/pet retention problem I tend to think the good outweighs the bad with spay and neuter.

 

[ChrystalPaths]

I do not clip tails. My schipperke pups last year sold quickly because they still had their curly tails! Unforutnately Fia did not take her breeding this year but it is for a reason I'm sure. I think cropping ears is uneccessary, I can see removing certain dewclaws that are long or floppy. On my Schipperke site I say all my pups are left with a "happy ending".

Here at Diminutives I believe every dog deserves a "happy ending" so my tails are NOT docked.

 

[Sonya]

I would absolutely buy a dog that has been left "natural"...I would actually prefer it. But of course I am not showing or anything.

About the dew claws.....my lab has his and so does my mix (at least some of them). We got our mix when he was 9 months old...he had dew claws on both the front and the back. We had him about 3 months and he was outside playing and one of the back ones ripped...I never saw so much blood in my life...he is a big baby when it comes to pain and he was crying and carrying on. We rushed him to the vet. We had the back ones removed. It was a long recovery for him as the vet really had to dig to get them out, they appeared more "flappy" then the fronts, but the vet said those thing were really deep. But the vet suggested it, he said the front ones usually are not a problem, but if your dog abnormally has back ones, which is pretty common, you should get them removed. The backs are much more likely to catch on something and rip.

As for spaying and neutering....absolutely, all animals who aren't going to be bred responsibley should have it done. When you have a dog/cat...even if you take proper care so that the animal doesn't have the opportunity to "get some", what happens when they first get loose or away from you? We all know there are way to many unwanted animals out there. I have never owned an animal that has not been fixed other than a mare one time. Every dog, cat, goat, everything I own has been snipped and always will be.

 

[Sterling]

Oh yes I would!!

: Have done it before and would do it again.

 

[Krickette]

All our dogs ears have been left alone. It's funny, because Beaux would look just like Abbi if his ears didn't flop. But hers go straight up. And out of her puppies, it seems about half and half. And actually, thinking back...most of our pups didn't have dewclaws...Some of them just had like...one. Beaux doesn't have any, though, and we never removed them.

 

[lovinarabs]

I would definitely take an undocked pup (or ears, whatever). I love the au naturale look! And dimimore, I absolutely adore those little pups of yours. I'm in love with the shipperke (or however you spell that). Our little JRT cross has a "funny" ear. It doesn't point the same and my MIL asked when I was going to "get that fixed". NEVER - I think it makes him look more cute. And he is definitely unique.

 

[capall beag]

Thanks for all your replies and they helped!!

I have decided to leave the pups completely "au natural", Jrt's dew claws are only on the front and they are very neat and cling close to the leg. I have seen large, floppy dew claws left on Shepards and I could see where there may be a problem.

Kind of funny, I just saw a little jrt with a tail about 10 minutes ago.......she was awfully cute!

Hubby says I should dock the tail, let's see if he notices! I bet he won't :lol:

Well, I am jumping the gun a bit the dogs haveen't even been bred but if she has a litter I will only be taking them to the vet for their health check up and their vaccinations/worming

:

:

btw lovinarabs LOVE your little dog

: looks like a full jrt to me, what is the mix?