Would like to make a point here...

[Crabby-Chicken]

This has been an interesting discussion. I have to agree with a lot about our miniatures. Those arabians show me how far I still have to go in my breeding program....

The curve between the eyes with a lump on the forhead as an adults tells me that the horse is carrying some extra chances at producing a dwarf when its partner has the same gene ( outwardly visable or not)

Here is my stallion. He has what I would call a quarter type head. He has a slight dish, and it is down where it should be,,,, not between the eyes, it is where the halter hits him. He was having caps dropping, so you see his teeth bumps underneath. He does have nice cheeks or jowls, too long in the length, it is an okay head. Araby??? Nope,,,not close to me. But I hope that in the next ten years or so we will be getting closer. He has plain ears and smaller eyes than I like. But to me doesnt seem to have the dwarfy forehead bump.

 

[outlawridge]

I think a good way to describe a dished face is that the profile between the horse's eyes and nostrils is a concave shape-- it dips in. It is the opposite of a roman nose, or the convex shape seen on a draft horse.

What many seem to miss is that the beauty of an Arab head is so much more than the individual features. It's not just the large eyes, the tippy ears, the delicate throatlatch, the well-defined jaw and teacup muzzle.

The Arab head has classic proportions and balance. The beauty lies in this balance and how each feature plays off of the next. It's about how that jaw complements the throatlatch, how the jaw is then counterbalanced by the dish. It lies in how those hooky ears are the logical extension of the arched of the neck, and how the flaring nostrils echo the large, liquid eyes.

VERY well said and explained. I also used the term "dishy cheek" in my post as this was the term used by several arabian breeders/show that I had talked arab heads with...go figure. It is confusing. What I am referring to as being as an arab dishy cheek is clean throatlatch, nicely rounded cheeks all in proportion and balanced.

I would like to add that the bulging foreheads seen in some of the ads for big farms and show horses really bothers me. It is an obvious dwarf trait to me, and I resent this being promoted as an "arab head". It is an insult to our intelligence and skills of observation. It is so far removed from an arab head, as has been pointed out by several in this thread already. A bulgy forehead creats the ILLUSION OF A DISH BELOW IT. There actually is none. The dish is not the forehead, again, as has been repeatedly pointed out here. There are also several that show a bulge and then a turned up nose. This gets to the really frightening point for me in breeding as now there is a double whammy of distinct dwarfism traits. Why oh why do people think this makes their mini look araby?? Please, stop breeding this way. It is heartbreaking to me when people allow the genetics for dwarfism to be continually bred into our wonderful horses. My best bred mare produced a minimal dwarf, purchased her bred, not from my stallion, and after knowing more, I will not breed her again. Why? Because her offspring carry a 25% chance of having the dwarf gene. Before I knew this I bred her once and got a beautiful boy, yes, he is gelded. I won't take the chance of getting a filly and then having the cost of spaying her. Okay.. I know, another whole topic so off my soapbox now.

Below is a pix of five week Dolly, shortly after she arrived. Dolly is a full blown dwarf we adopted in 2006. You wouldn't believe the comments I received from this one pix that she was such a pretty, araby mini with a teacup muzzle and dishy head.

(Edited to add that to me, Dolly and the rest of our adopted dwarfs, along with the minimal dwarf boy born to the mare, ARE perfect and beautiful. As representations of the breed and what we hope for? absolutely not! But they were born, and therefore worthy of my devotion, love, and the best care possible.)

 

[Mona]

: OMG...now I am totally confused too!!! When I hear the term "dish", I always thought it was referring to the concave "dip" from the eye are down the face towards the muzzle, as I have marked with the hand in your photo example here. I always considered what you pointed out, to be the jowl.

Im going to use a bigger pic with an arrow pointing to the dish. This to me is a dish! This is what I was always told growing up was a dish. A big problem in minis is so many are straight on the bottom. And I was told growing up a horse straight on the bottom was not as strong in the jowl. Sorry but I have a hard time using paint or I would just draw it

 

[kaykay]

okay Carol I fed the horses, fed the humans and came back LOL. Thanks so much for putting that on the photo.

I think what it boils down to once again is DISHY has a lot of different meanings to different people. My understanding has always been what outlaw said above. I even asked my neighbor with the huge foaling farm down the street and he takes it the way Outlaw

VERY well said and explained. I also used the term "dishy cheek" in my post as this was the term used by several arabian breeders/show that I had talked arab heads with...go figure. It is confusing. What I am referring to as being as an arab dishy cheek is clean throatlatch, nicely rounded cheeks all in proportion and balanced.

and I do.
But again I and my neighbor and the people I know do not have Arabians.

But like I said before a bulging forehead to ME will never be dishy or exotic or anything else you want to call it.

Mona Carol put a pic on showing the same place you did right after my pic

While there are some nice heads posted on this thread none of them imo even are close to an "araby" head.

 

[buckonranch]

[SIZE=10pt] Yes... let get them out here... Calling all miniature breeders who profess they breed the tru Arabian Miniature.. this is your chance... Free advertising... Lets see them...[/SIZE]

Angie (this is more fun that going out dancin on a Friday night!!!) :lol:

 

[Mona]

Mona Carol put a pic on showing the same place you did right after my pic

: Yep, I see that now, but I wasn't done reading all the thread when I replied. I came into this late.

 

[kaykay]

I love angie :aktion033: I really need to come visit!

 

[seahorse]

GREAT discussion! :aktion033: Very informative. I was starting to think people actually wanted minis to have "bulgy" heads.

My mom and I both LOVE your mare! We also saw her baby on your web site, and she is also fantastic!

 

[mininik]

I almost hate to say it, but I see some definite similarities between the head of the dwarf foal posted by outlawridge and the heads of your mares, Steph.

:

 

[ThreeCFarm]

Well Nicole, you started it, but I have to say that one mare in particular has always struck me as being dwarfy. I'm not saying my horses are perfect, but maybe the comments that prompted the OP to start this thread was about that one mare? I won't say which one in public unless the OP asks.

Sometimes a fresh eye makes all the difference in looking at our horses.

 

[kaykay]

Steph I hope you arent too upset by the comments. I do applaud your vet for being able to pick up on these subtle dwarf characteristics that so many miss.

And I think this thread has been great and shows just how subjective a "dishy" head is in our industry.

Like so many have said so many dwarf carriers or minimal expression dwarfs slip under the radar and this thread really shows how it happens

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Well I have to say here that many of the horses posted well ok some of the horses posted that have been thought to have "dishy" heads or whatever you want to call them have other issues that stick out to me as "carriers" or characteristics which alone make me think but when coupled with things such as head ect can be more of a red flag for me but again that is JUST ME

like a short neck- or a long body with short legs ect

I often find my vet is good at pointing out things that I might not see since he is not into minis and is comparing (as it should be) them to large horses

 

[user 488]

And I think this thread has been great and shows just how subjective a "dishy" head is in our industry.

Well, I truly hope it has opened a few eyes as a dishy head is NOT a subjective term. Maybe subjective in the Miniature horse breed but not in the Arabian breed. It is what it is and people have been misled by others who are totally clueless. I guarantee you can walk up to any "educated" Arabian breeder or show person and ask them what a dish is and it certainly would not be a forehead or a jowl..............

Well I have to say here that many of the horses posted well ok some of the horses posted that have been thought to have "dishy" heads or whatever you want to call them have other issues that stick out to me as "carriers" or characteristics which alone make me think but when coupled with things such as head ect can be more of a red flag for me but again that is JUST ME

And I have to agree........I see pictures here of horses expressing multiple recessive traits. Very scary IMHO. And with the dwarf problems as a whole I think that before buying horses for breeding that people need to get a whole lot more educated.

 

[mininik]

I understand that there are likely many out there who will look at either of those mares and as outlawridge had someone comment on her dwarf, they will see "a pretty, araby mini with a teacup muzzle and dishy head." Opinions will vary, but mine was not based only on the heads of those two mares. This has nothing to do with their type, or even their color. I understand that the smaller these horses get the harder it is to fit in the proper proportions, but I believe there is a certain point where basic conformation is still sacrificed for small stature by some breeders. Whether or not either of these mares actually IS a dwarf or even has dwarfism in their genetics is not for me to say. The fact that I can see definite similarities in them to some of the dwarves I've seen was enough for me to say so honestly, with no malicious intent. In fact, if this thread wasn't set up the way it was I never would have commented.

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

LOL Angie Buckon you said it pretty much the way I would (only better of course) I personally do call those types of heads recessive but that is just what works for me.

I am not sure where anyone is getting they should have a domed head if you look at these top arabs meaning quality arabs you will see they have quite the opposite in fact they have wider flatter forheads for lack of a better way to describe it. There should be no dome of any type

like these?

:

Having both Arabians and Minis - I've yet to see ANY mini with a truly "arabian" head.... most times when threads start asking for pictures of different "types" of minis, all I ever see are minis that look like minis! (as they should! Just like Arabians should look like Arabians!)

:

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Ok now no fair everyone knows I am a SUCKER for a flea bitten gray it is my all time favorite look just so classy I LOVE IT that horse is to die for

but yes exactly like that and the horses Carol posted... how anyone sees anything but a nice flat forhead with pretty big nicely set eyes is beyond me

:

 

[susanne]

Hmm...I thought my post was clear about the dish being on their face between the eyes and the nostrils...but then a comment referring to a comment about my post once again connected the dish to the jaw -- LOL!

I've never heard or read of it being located anywhere else on the body.

 

[ThreeCFarm]

Me too, Lisa! I LOVE grays, but have yet to get a gray mini. We still have my mother's gray QH mare though, so she'll have to do for now, LOL. All of the Arabians posted are GORGEOUS!!!!!!!!!! I used to ride and show a gray Arab gelding who was one of my all time favorite horses.

:

 

[The Dynamic Duo]

It's a pet peeve of mine, but I can't stand it when miniature breeders refer to their horses are "araby" or "arabian-type" etc. I have NEVER seen a miniature that looked like an arabian! Have we forgotten what arabians look like? Look at the stunning arabians posted on this thread. Show me a mini that looks like that!

:

In reply to the above statement^,

Last weekend at the show here in Katy I saw one of the most refined horses Ive EVER seen in my LIFE!I didnt happen to get a picture as by then, my camera was DEAD but maybe another attend-e got one?

She did happen to be 2.5 months old but boy she didnt look like she was going to change at all!

 

[Tami]

Here is my girl, Ima A Little Blue