Why Do People Keep Mediocre Horses as Stallions

[slaneyrose]

Nootka, I didnt mean good feeding could improve bad conformation....I did in fact say real conformation problems are obvious but I remember one of the more experienced breeders on here showing a pic of a horse with a very weak hip....it looked gooserumped....then as a 3yr old his back end was completely different.....really gorgeous!!! It seems in minis the rear end needs time to mature more than the rest of them.....on the other hand, if I had a foal that had bad joints, club feet, or some other defect that I knew wouldnt improve then I wouldnt sell it for breeding or showing, only as a pet.

 

[Walbon Acres]

To begin with there is no perfect horse. Also some famous stallions have passed on conformation faults but people still buy them and breed them. I believe that to truly know if a stallion is good you will have to breed him to see if his offspring hold up to a higher standard. Also has everyone forgotten that the mare also plays a large part in the resulting offspring! Why do you think that people say "To approved mares only " when they stand there stallions at stud. I have a mare here that I would call average but she produes lovely foals. WE also had a beautiful Half Arab mare whose dam was as ugly as a mud fence but she produced Champion offspring. So the stallion can also sire above average foals. Sometimes you have to go by the pedigree and the combination of the mare. I will agree that there are alot of stallions out there that should be gelded but just because a stallion is not "perfect" does not mean that he should be gelded. As far as gelding a colt before you sell it, I usually sell my colts as weanlings and they are not dropped therefore I don't have them gelded.

 

[Cathy_H]

go to the top breeding and training websites and compare you animals to what you see on their websites b

Truth be known there are big name farms churning out mediocre horses every year also. Lee & I have seen this over & over since we started showing & breeding in 1986......... Over the years we have visited well advertised farms.... Some of what was presented to us was NOT near as nice as the stallions or mares that we were currently using............................... Just because a farm is small does not mean it has mediocre horses. We have used two stallions in our breeding program from two of the most well known proven bloodlines ever, producing 2-4 foals a year. Several of our bred & raised horses were resold for LOTS more than Lee & I small breeder could have gotten.. The horses that we kept were shown at tough AMHA shows to champion levels then retired to breeding.................................... Also I have seen what I would call pet quality mares on big farms being bred to a well advertised nice stallion but I am here to tell you that NOT every foal sired by that stallion was nice. Dozens of foals running around & several were not what I would call show quallity. These big farms need to take on breeder responsibility also - how many of you know of the numerous pet quality foals that were taken to auctions from BIG farms to get them out of sight. ........ AND these big farms need to quit pushing off these mediocre horses as breeding quality JUST to make a dollar.... Through the years Lee & I have seen & helped newbies resell horses that they were sold as quality breeding horses by trusted BIG time well advertised breeders...... I have seen dozens of mares bred to a well shown champion stallion who threw a certain fault in several of his foals... If a new buyer cannot trust what he/she is being told by a so called respectable breeder then HOW are they suppose to learn................... Small breeder - BIG breeder the responsibility belongs to everyone............ ALL breeders need to stop trying to make a dollar at the expense of honesty & integrity or the problem is going to exist.......... Guess I've seen too much small farm bashing when in reality fingers can be pointed to several big breeders who are doing the same.

 

[Cathy_H]

Deleted as computer burped & posted twice

 

[Marty]

Ok it's been a long week and I'm cranky and tired and haven't posted hardly much at all so here's my view:

I think a lot of you guys are being quite full of yourselves here lately.

I must be modest or humble or just plain dumb but I wouldn't be so condesending.

Am I the only one here that is in agreement with Rocking R ??? She had the guts to say out loud what I'll bet a lot of us little guys here are thinking. I say CHEERS to you Rocking R.

And by the way, my stallion's sire is a Reserve National Champion but he's not and never will be. NO. But he's good enough for me and my life. We also don't show and heck, we can't even make it out the back door to get to one. I don't have the $ to be hauling to shows, because I choose to pay my bills and dump that money into my horse's care. I also don't pay a trainer with a name, I also will not participate in a bunch backbiting politics out there, so why can't some of you guys just lighten up a little bit and not always assume that just because you don't see some of us out there, that we have some kind of low cost ecomony pets in our barn.

Now that being said I'd like to draw your attention to some of the broodmares I've seen. Been to some farms the past few years here and there. My goodness. I'd be ashamed to be giving a tour to people with some of the conditions these horses are living in. Seems that some of the big guys out there are using some broodmares that I wouldn't think of using; super cow hocks, crooked legs in front too, and yep, I even saw one with an off bite that was so off it was pitiful. Horses that are wormy as homemade sin, not seen a farrier in months, papers that are all messed up, and no real time or money dumped into them or their upkeep so shame on them so you know what they can do with their big fancy name? . And oh my, here I was all worried that one of my horses has a back that I wish was 2 inches shorter and a tail that should be an inch higher. So please please don't assume that we are all barn blind and have lesser quality horses than you do.

Told you I was cranky.

I just want you guys to see both sides of the coin here and be a little bit more understanding.

 

[capall beag]

Although I agree with the basic point of the poster of this topic I do feel that Cathy H said exactly what I feel!!

I don't think it is the small breeder or the many small breeders who are sabotaging the miniature horse I think it is greedy bigger names who have paid HUGE sums of money for their studs and although they claim will only be bred to a 'few select mares", when push comes to shove they will breed to all sorts of quality if mares because they are in business and they need to recoupe their expenses and make money!!!!

If the big name farms sold all mediocre colts already gelded this HUGE problem of too many average stallions in the market would shrink considerably..........I highly doubt you will see this any time soon!!

It seems to me that the people who are most concerned about improving the miniature horse, many who have posted on this thread, are small time breeders!!

Definately hats off to them but I don't think it is the $500 stallion that is ruining the market for mini's. It is the $10,000 colt that was sold as a stallion prospect and turns up with stifle problems that are covered up to avoid loosing out on the investment.......this is just a hypothetical example not pointing a finger

:

Obviousl;y just MHO

 

[Minimor]

Oh, well said Marty!

I know people that go out & buy some fancy, well bred, very expensive stallion. Then they breed him to anything & everything. They've even gone to some big name farms & bought some mares that look fancy on paper, but when you look at the horse you certainly don't see that fancy pedigree. "I paid a lot for her so her foals have to be worth big bucks" Umm hmm.

Why do people keep mediocre stallions for breeding? Same reason they keep mediocre mares for breeding. The foals sell. If people keep buying the offspring, the owner keeps breeding the horses. The foals are little, or colorful....or whatever selling features they may have. I've also seen some pretty fancy, nice looking, show champion stallions that are putting some pretty poor quality foals on the ground. Show record or no, fancy pedigree or no, if the stallion can't sire quality foals he shouldn't be breeding either.

We're really not raising and selling horses here. I just don't like to part with the foals. We're cutting back on a few of our mares and are selling off a gelding here & there and then will keep the rest. Our stallion isn't perfect, but he's nice, he can move, and he's siring foals nicer than himself. He's well bred, but not real fancy on paper--the names are there, but a couple or 3 generations back. The foals we've raised from him are exactly what we want, and if we had to buy them elsewhere, we wouldn't have afforded them. We carefully picked a few mares & got some excellent crosses. We have tried sending mares out for breeding, and wouldn't do it again. In one instance it was fine, but otherwise... :no: I won't go into any details here.

I've had people tell me that I should be showing some of these Ice Man foals, even take them to nationals, as they would be competitive. Well, it won't happen this year. Our local show was cancelled. I was invited to haul along with a friend to a big show or two in the US but I turned that down a couple days ago. I'm on a careful budget here, and now am faced with replacing my septic field this summer. Since I'll need the money for that, I can't justify spending the $$ it would take to go showing this summer. My friend told me it would be so much fun. I said yes, it would, but come winter time it wouldn't be too much fun out here to have no sewer!!! So, if anyone wants to think that because we aren't showing we have less than good quality horses, that's fine. :lol:

Really, it's to each his own and if people are happy with the horses they've got--and people are buying the foals they produce--I guess it's not up to the rest of us to point fingers and decide which stallions should or shouldn't be breeding.

Definately hats off to them but I don't think it is the $500 stallion that is ruining the market for mini's. It is the $10,000 colt that was sold as a stallion prospect and turns up with stifle problems that are covered up to avoid loosing out on the investment.......

You've got that right too!

 

[SmoothEZ]

First off let me clarify that my original post was not directed to any one person or horse that I have seen on the forum. As a matter of fact if you asked me what photos I have seen recently on the board I couldn't tell you. The only horse that I can remember from the posts on this forum was a colt that was foaled in Australia and I emailed the owner and told her that her foal was one of the most spectacular foals I have ever seen. I personnally do not have any minis but did have several and was a trainer about 7 - 8 years ago.

Second I would like to commend those of you that had the insight to look deep into your herd and make the decision to geld that horse and not continue to breed him. Just because you geld a horse does not mean you love them any less. What is does mean is that you thought enough about your horse to relieve the animal from going through the hormone balances that they go through when a mare is in season. I have seen some of the most docile stallions become real idiots when they are around cycling mares. Think for a minute, put yourself in the place of that stallion that is around mares all day that come and go out of season and he is denied that very lowest level of instinct.

I also agree that just because a horse is not a winner in a confirmation class that he can not be a winner in a performance class, but lets think a minute on that one. Ones confirmation sets the tone for ones performance. You can take a horse with a low set neck and expect to have the perfect head set in a driving class, that horse will always be out shined by one whose neck line is set more toward the standard.

I am also not saying that only stallions with a show record should be kept as stallions. What I am saying is that if you think your stallion can stand with the best of them then maybe just maybe they should be kept as a stallion. But if you main goal is not the breed better, then your intentions may be off key.

Let me ask you this, is your dog neutered? If so why did you neuter him? Is it because you didn't want a thousand puppies around or you just want one good dog that you can love and nurture.

I also agree that mares are 50% of the problem with the resulting foals, that being said maybe some mare should not be bred either. I just think that as a breed we all need to look long and hard at what we are trying to achieve and put in place a program that will help us achieve our goals.

I am sorry if I ticked off a couple of people but I just think that this is a subject that we have tiptoed around for too long.

JMHO

 

[slaneyrose]

Really, it's to each his own and if people are happy with the horses they've got--and people are buying the foals they produce--I guess it's not up to the rest of us to point fingers and decide which stallions should or shouldn't be breeding.

:aktion033: :aktion033: absolutely!!!

I also dont agree that a "champion" stallion will ALWAYS produce "champion" foals, even with the same mare. thats not reality. I have a stallion that wins a lot at shows and is highly regarded here but he doesnt ALWAYS have winning offspring. A couple of his foals are pet quality but they make excellent pets because I also breed for temperament and think that is very important too. On the other hand he does also produce foals that go on to do really well in the show ring but I cant say every single foal he has its top notch because that isnt true....and I dont believe that to be true of any stallion.

Also I agree with what has been said about big name farms or people who advertise their farm on a large scale but who would sell their not so first class or even seriously faulted youngsters off at auctions or to dealers to end up goodness knows where just to cover up and then hold up the nice ones as the only thing they produce. These breeders need to take responsibility cos those "hidden" ones fall into unknowledgeable hands and serious faults are perpetuated. That is the case in U.K and Ireland anyway.

 

[littlearab]

I believe it's because many do not know what a well put together horse really looks like. They see cute, color and personality and forget the poor legs or big head.

I also see many mares being bred that would not be if they were normal size horses. I think people forget that the mare is 75% of the foal.....(MHO) she raises it so they get more from her. Such as how they act to a point. You can not get pearl out of sows ear. So why do people think a poor mares will produce a nice foal?? Even if they are bred to the best stallion around they are still at least 1/2 her.

But in the end it's all up to the person who owns the horse.

I would also like to reply to this...

I often look at breeders websites, especially when they post pictures of their beautiful foals. I look at the stallions. the foals, the for sale page, and then I get to the mares pages. I wonder why they sell all the foals with their farm names and keep mares that have other farm names on them. I would think if you are making crosses that produce better foals that you would keep most of them until most of your mares have your farm name.

I do not keep fillies to replace my mares because

1) I do not have a place ot keep them alone for 3 years.

2) All my mares are 8 or under and I do not want to have anymore mares.

3) Why would one have to keep fillies to replace good mares??

When mares age and if I decide to keep breeding I will be keeping fillies by then I will be set up for them.

I do not mind the ? just wanted to give my reason for not keeping fillies.

:

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I am really confused here!!! It all started earlier this week, when I saw a post on here where a forum member stated that her stud may be throwing locking stifles. A GREAT majority of the people I usually see post about the "betterment of the breed", told her that in no way should she geld her horse and that they would be honored to have a foal by him. In fact...I think only 3 members were honest and said that they would not buy a foal of his.

What gives? I understand that he is a gorgeous horse (I have told her that myself) and I personally would have no problem buying one of his foals (my filly was born with a bad bite and in no way is she unworthy to me), but I have also never passed judgement onto other people's horses and told them that they are only mediocre. To me, if you are interested in the betterment of the breed, then this stallion, regardless of how beautiful he is, would be a big no no to breed. I think a lot of people are being biased here.

I saw another member ask to have their horse critiqued on here yesterday. To me, there was no difference of the before picture (where apparetnly a year ago, you told her he was not breeding material) and the pictures that were current. Appearence doesn't change the fact of whether he should be bred or not. If he had flaws a year ago, wouldn't he just be a flawed horse in general where breeding is concerned? Or if he is good enough to breed now, wouldn't he have still had the same genes last year? By the way, to me, he was very pretty in before and after pics.

You know for a newbie.. this is a very observant post

:

:

I think the problem is a nice horse is a very subjective term to many I will admit i have bred some icky horses looking back now at the horses I owned 8 -10 years ago OMG EWWWWW

I learned alot over the years and my mistake was simple- breeding before I was informed enough. My answer is simple making sure I do my best to not be barn blind, never thinking a ribbon won means the horse doesnt have the flaws he does - it means only that the judge felt those flaws were a bit less important then someone elses flaws.

Being able to truly see what is in front of me and doing my best to let my ego not get the best of me so that I can see what is really there and then... doing something about making needed changes or choosing not to breed.

 

[KanoasDestiny]

Lisa, thank you for understanding my post! I posted the other one too on the other thread, not to get opinions on MY filly, but basically just for anyone's mare. I didn't mean to get anyone upset or try to be deceitful, but I know a couple other members (who contacted me via PM) felt the same as I did on that thread, and wanted to know how normal non breeders are supposed to go about getting their mares bred if breeders feel not just any stud will do. Where do they have left to turn if "breeders" don't feel their mare is worthy?

 

[Gizzmoe]

I may not have TOP quality horses, and I am not barn blind either. But, I can not afford to have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ horses. The horses I do have I paid a price for. If I want to breed them I will. I do not sell them and I only have one or two a year. I have only what I can afford to keep and keep well. I don't breed just to sell them. They are better taken care than I take of myself. For me it is the love of the horses and their companionship that I got into minis. I am of no threat to you BIG breeders, and some of the horses from BIG names, that everyone druels over in my opionion, well I'll keep that to myself. Not to be mean but (it hurts don't it!!!)

. No one like to hear their horse is pet or mediocre quality. My point is, to me beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what you might think is Mediocre, to me is wonderful!!

:

I have to agree with what Rockin R said. My stallion that I currently own isnt 100% but no horse is. He still is rather correct considering and makes one heck of a driving/performance horse. He even has a great disposition to boot. I have bred him once but am not even sure the mare took as she was sold soon thereafter. Yes I am planning on breeding him again in the future to a quality mare, any foals bred would be with the intention of keeping. As far as big horses go I know a lady who has a black arab stallion she is breeding to less then mediocre mares and the stud isn't correct himself. Says he has good breeding and the extreme swayback he has is from being ridden young.

: On a different note though most people judge minis on the arab type so when a QH type mini has a thicker neck then that of an arab type, so many people say you need to sweat it etc. Or comment that he is too thick or whatever. As someone else said we all have our likes and dislikes.

Excuse his feet they were in dire need of a trim when this pic was taken

 

[EAD Minis]

I agree some people do have off taste in stallions, but alot of people have gorgeous horses who can obviously contribute to the mini breed. I know Roy isnt National quality (he is a gelding) but I personaly think he is beautiful and means more to me then owning THE buckaroo ever would (but he is gorgeous) and I do like showing him because its fun.I dont go out there to win it all just giving him somthing exciting to see and do and also gain expereience for myself.And i agree with barn Bum on the small breeder does not = pet quality.Some breeders have only 4 mares and awsome stallions.Just my opinion.

 

[nootka]

Ok, about the weak hip/slack hind end: Yeah, feed will help fill out the skinny ones, but it will not change poor angles nor will it change a low tail set. It accentuates something when they're skinny b/c you can see bone structure. Not going to go farther with it b/c I don't think ppl really like critiques.

I don't mind 'em. I post my horses from time to time and invite honest, knowledgeable critiques.

Sometimes they see things I don't, but most of the time, I'm pretty aware of the shortcomings.

NO horse is perfect, but when 90% of the breed is of a certain "type" I am pretty sure there dont' need to be thousands more bred for color, cuteness, sentiment, whatever.

Not all mares should be bred, but isn't that more of a reason why those stallions should be that much more outstanding than the average?

It's far more economically sound to take your "so so" mare to a really outstanding stallion than another "so so" one. *shrugs* Not to mention, why not have the most beautiful foal you can?

Yes, beauty's in the eye of the beholder, but soundness and good conformation is pretty objective.

All the condition in the world is not going to change my opinion. Yes, a horse looks better b/c he's more fit, but it remains that the original shortcomings are there. Just my opinion.

Liz M.

 

[CharmedMinis]

Good Job Everyone On Great Thoughtful Posts!!!

:

A couple of things I want to point out.

One being photographs. Most of us "small time breeders" don't have professionally done enhanced photographs of our horses, which means our horses don't look as good as the ones that are all glammed up do!

I have 2 extremely nice stallions. I consider myself a pretty good photographer........but every visitor I've ever had here at the farm to see my horses has told me, "Wow your stallions are 100 times better than their pictures show them."

On to the next point........showing!

Do I show, NO! Would my stallions be national champions, possibly they could be.

One of my stallions was purchased by his previous owner for large sum of money and went on to win numerous titles and is 1 point shy of his hall of fame.

My other stallion showed as a weanling and did well but hasn't shown since. He is extremely conformationally correct but has no presence, instead he has the nicest disposition on the place and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Both of these stallions could clean up in the show ring if I took the time to get them ready, or paid someone to do it for me.

I say this because, I went to the World show last year. Every horse there that I saw had been neck sweated and shoulder sweated, and sometimes belly sweated, and Clipped and groomed and manes trimmed just right to show off that particular horse's neck. And we all know there are some people out there that also do horrible types of surgeries and stuff to altar what's natural to a particular horse.

Other than the surgeries, I have no problem with any of it, but I won't myself do it to any of my horses. So if I were to take my stallions to a show as they are right now, no they probably wouldn't win much of anything, and that's fine by me.

:

 

[Minimor]

It's far more economically sound to take your "so so" mare to a really outstanding stallion than another "so so" one. *shrugs* Not to mention, why not have the most beautiful foal you can?

In terms of stud fee, I would have to say "only to a point". If the resulting foal is to be for the mare owner's personal use and enjoyment, and if that owner has the money to spend, then I guess the sky is the limit on stud fees for a so-so mare--breed her to the very best stallion & perhaps you will get the horse of your dreams. If the resulting foal is meant to be for sale, though, then I believe there are limits to what should be spent on a stud fee. That limit does depend on the mare; there are some mares that probably are not ever going to produce an outstanding foal no matter what stallion they are bred to. Others may, if crossed on the right stallion, out do themselves by far in the resulting foal.
Years back in the Morgan world breeders had kind of a rule of thumb when it came to paying a stud fee to breed a mare--any mare. They said that the stud fee paid for breeding any mare should not be more than half the price you would expect to get for the resulting foal. I think I got that right--I'm tired and out of touch & it's been a long time now since I've heard this discussed, but I think that's what it was!

: Really, it does make sense. Unless you lucked into the deal of the decade, if you've got a $500 or $800 mare that is absolutely so-so quality, what is a realistic amount to spend on a stud fee, assuming that your intention is to sell the foal? Is that mare going to give you a $3000 foal if you pay $1500 for the stud fee? Or a $6000 foal if you pay $3000 for the stud fee? Or are you going to pay $1500 for the stud fee, then come up with a colt that you can't even get $1000 for? Or are you happy to pay $1500 for the stud fee and then sell the foal for $1600? In many cases I believe it's more a case of breeding the mare to the stallion that is right for her, rather than to the very best stallion that money can buy.

 

[tagalong]

I think a lot of you guys are being quite full of yourselves here lately.

And I think that^^^ was a rather RUDE thing to say when people are merely sharing their opinions and observations.

I expect that anyone sharing your exact opinion would not be full of themselves... or uppity... or whatever other comment you might come up with. *sigh*

You know - this is a message board - a forum (look up the definition) - and differing opinions expressed without insults are how such things work..... fascinating concept, that.

:

There are mediocre - and just plain POOR - stallions out there who should not be. It does not matter what their relatives did - or what their lines are or what BIG or SMALL breeder they came from. The individual should be considered. There are many stallions of famous "lines" out there who would make excellent geldings... and relative unknowns who may be awesome.

And "type" need not enter into it... you do not want a QH type with a goose rump, upright pasterns, a thick throatlatch or a neck that is on upside-down any more than you would want an Arabian type to show those obvious flaws. Basic conformation points apply to all types - no matter what "style".

How sad that "gelding" is still seen as somewhat of a bad word in the miniature horse world - when they are the mainstay of most other breeds, performance-wise. A recent thread here where a discussion of gelding was taken as an insult by one poster was a case in point....

But hey - I guess I am just being "full of myself".....

:

ETA:

I agree, nootka... muscling, conditioning and fat can change an outline to a certain extent - but the structure beneath it - the length of hip, the angles, the tailset... cannot be changed. No more than painting your house a different colour or adding shrubbery can fix the fact that the foundation is out of whack...

:

Every horse there that I saw had been neck sweated and shoulder sweated, and sometimes belly sweated, and Clipped and groomed and manes trimmed just right to show off that particular horse's neck.

And none of that can alter the structure or how that horse is put together. No matter how sweated, groomed or clipped - the quality - or lack thereof - shows.

 

[nootka]

tagalong, I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say.

A skinny horse always looks bad to me, but it just makes it easier to see what's off about them. When they fill out, it's a bit harder to see, but you can still see where those bones go and that is what makes a horse made poorly in the beginning.

A horse that is conditioned and well cared for always looks better, but doesn't mean it has genetics that make it the next "sire of perfection".

There are SO MANY beautiful stallions out there, and in a very reasonable price range, stud fee wise.

It's kind of fun to shop and look at the foals born each year, and pick out a pretty one with a nice color in the gender you want. Not that I'm shopping! *LOL*

Gelding is in no way a dirty word, here. I'm having a great time with Mouse, my gelding. Kyan is seeing the vet on Monday.

Liz M.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

To start with one point:-

The BMHS has never closed it's books, therefore did not have to "open" them because the gene pool was too small.

We now only hardship in horses that are not from two registered parents BUT the hardship facility has always been there and will be for some time to come.

Our horses are improving by leaps and bounds but are far from perfect and the indiscriminate importing by some people just looking for a fast buck, has done nothing to help the situation whatsoever.

To this end it is now very expensive to register an American import- of all the horses put forward for hard shipping I am very sorry to say that these have been the most disappointing.

I know this is mostly down to the greed of the people importing them, rather than the true standard of the "breed", but it gives a very poor picture.

Some people have been selling shed fulls of second rate American horses and exporting them to the UK, and no doubt laughing all the way to the bank.

At this end, absolutely no better IMO some people have been buying up these horses and selling them on for top dollar as "Genuine American" Horses.

This is very disappointing all round.

Please, it's about time we had some really GOOD imports, we are way past needing the second best.

And then, quietly, in the background, you have a few breeders like me, patiently breeding the very best that they can, doing slightly more than our fair share of winning, and getting consistently good results in our breeding programmes.

I am currently into my fifth generation of home bred animals- I do not have a mare on the place that has not got my Farm Name on it, whose mother , grandmother and great grandmother has my Farm name on it.

Stallions I do buy in, although when recently I went to buy one the only one I could find that lived up to my expectations had been bred by me!!

I have a very, very nice colt here at the moment, owned by a friend, (and if she would PLEASE get off her butt and get him registered he will do very well in the show ring!!!!!) but, again, he is by a Stallion I bred out of a mare I bred.

I am sure there is some very nice stock out there somewhere- I just have not found it yet!!

As to taking my mares to Stud- Yes I have done that, there is one very nice stallion here whose owner was kind enough to breed a mare for me, at a very reasonable stud fee, but that and two others is just about it.

I am royally fed up with mediocre stallions.

To the back teeth.

Can your tell

??

I have three absolutely top class stallions, all under 30" and all my breeding.

I really do need a top class, unrelated, stallion.

And I cannot find one, not to buy, anyway.