What is YOUR standard of perfection

[Matt73]

if it is under 38 inches it is a mini and has every right to show in the ring and win doesnt it?

That's my perspective as well

Mine too!

I understand what MiloMinis is saying. But, I agree; the only breed standard for a mini, unfortunately, is that it be 38" and under; there are no inspections etc. as there are for other breeds ie. Hanoverian, Dutch Warmblood etc.

 

[dreaminmini]

This is actually an interesting thread. Thank you Milo! I enjoyed reading others opinions and as I am new to miniatures it gave me food for thought and I try to learn something...

I realize and believe that everyone is free to breed their type of miniature "horse", but I think what is trying to be said is "Horse" is the operative word. As in AMHR and AMHA unless I am mistaken have as their standard use the word "Horse" not "Pony". If we start bringing in pony blood such as Hackney and Modern Shetland then we are now essentially breeding miniature ponies and that is a whole other conformation standard. The other problem as was mentioned is the height restrictions and those being allowed to compete and win when they don't fall under the 38" measurement. When a horse is measures over it is considered a pony and should be shown in it's respective division. I also believe it to be correct when a pony goes over it's height restriction it can no longer show in it's respective division.

Do we maybe need an extra division that is a miniature pony and therefore we can cross in the Hackney and the moderns? This would allow people who like the higher movement their choice and they could have a higher height restriction going up to 42" or 44". Therefore allowing the miniature horse to maintain it's integrity as a horse whatever the "horse" body style it may be and allowing for form and function.

There could also be some crossover classes that allows both to compete together, obstacle came first to mind.

It is not my intention to say that anyone should or shouldn't belong, but maybe we should think of the miniature horse as a breed and what could become of it years down the road if steps aren't taken to protect it for what it is. What about the rights as a buyer for me to choose what type I like and want to buy. If I want a miniature horse that's what I want not a miniature hackney or miniature modern shetland. But there are those who want that and probably could care less it it was called a miniature horse, miniature pony or miniature hackney.

I have nothing against any of these breeds and am only using them as examples as they have already been mentioned previously. There is no disrespect intended. I love and find beauty in all horses. But the beauty is also in their differences and I also love them for that.

 

[shelia]

I would like to see the day come when the miniature horse develops separate breeds within it. There are many breeds of large horses. Why can't miniatures also have have many breeds. I believe miniature refers to the size only, not the style.

 

[JWC sr.]

Actually all of you are wrong and I am the only one that is right! LOL Just kidding. I am enjoying all these different points of view. Thanks everyone!!!

OH!

 

[nootka]

Personally, I pursue the best possible proportion.

Even if I might like the "Arabian look" I have a LONG way to go until I find one in any size other THAN an Arabian, that comes anywhere near the look.

For example, the "dishy" face that is attributed to Arabian ends up coming off as "odd" when the proportions are off. Leg length to back and neck length are often the first giveaway when I see a photo of a Miniature horse. Add to that the density of bone proportionate to those and you have a horse that needs a lot of careful breeding management to attain the goals set out: "smallest horse in miniature" to me reads that we are looking for a horse, only smaller, not necessarily squashed to fit the measuring standard.

Even if I found a perfect "QH" in miniature, I would grab it up if only for the proportions, because any horse with proper conformation and excellence in proportion, is worth breeding for.

The height thing is really beside the point.

If that Hackney looking mini was better proportioned (highly likely) and had less conformation fault than another "mini looking mini" then they deserved to win the class. Period.

L.

 

[MiLo Minis]

If we can't achieve a more defined breed standard for Miniatures can we come up with suggestions on how to help enforce the measurements of hardshipped horses? Some suggestions of my own and ones given to me by others:

A stiff fine and/or suspension/removal of the offending stewards license.

Suspension of offending owner's membership.

Fine for owner of oversized horse.

Remeasurement of all of the offender's show horses with further penalties assessed if justified.

These penalties would be incurred by horses measuring say 2 or 3 inches or more over the 38" limit so as to avoid penalizing either steward or owner who innocently measures inaccurately as there are many ways a measurement could be off by an inch or so either way but when you get up to 2 or 3" you know darned well there has been something hinky going on.

Perhaps a blood sample could be drawn at the time of the measurement by a licensed veterinarian for drug testing and he/she could then witness the measurement - if you are already paying for his time you might as well get something out of it.

A photo taken of the horse with the stick on it to show its stance when being measured.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Personally, I pursue the best possible proportion.

Even if I might like the "Arabian look" I have a LONG way to go until I find one in any size other THAN an Arabian, that comes anywhere near the look.

For example, the "dishy" face that is attributed to Arabian ends up coming off as "odd" when the proportions are off. Leg length to back and neck length are often the first giveaway when I see a photo of a Miniature horse. Add to that the density of bone proportionate to those and you have a horse that needs a lot of careful breeding management to attain the goals set out: "smallest horse in miniature" to me reads that we are looking for a horse, only smaller, not necessarily squashed to fit the measuring standard.

Even if I found a perfect "QH" in miniature, I would grab it up if only for the proportions, because any horse with proper conformation and excellence in proportion, is worth breeding for.

The height thing is really beside the point.

I agree with you 100% up until this point:

If that Hackney looking mini was better proportioned (highly likely) and had less conformation fault than another "mini looking mini" then they deserved to win the class. Period.

Even if it was 6" OVER the height limit? How can the smaller horse hope to compete? And why should it have to when our rule books states the height limit is 38"?

L.

 

[Miniv]

I LOVE so many TYPES for so many different reasons!

Frankly it's silly to argue over the different "types". It's like arguing over Apples and Oranges......or if you don't like oranges, then Grapes and Pears!!!

Our "B" Minis and Miniature Shetlands happen to look a bit like the Arab "type", but with some substance. The modern Arabs have lost some of their bone, IMO. We also happen to own a full sized Arab.

Our "A" Minis are more medium boned and remind me of another full sized horse we also own, which happens to be a Morgan/Arab cross!

Here's a Test......Take your "perfect" A or B sized miniature horse......no matter WHAT SIZE and place them in a backdrop where you can't tell their height. It needs to be a side shot. Then, look at the length of leg, the slope of the shoulder, the hip, tail set........how the neck comes out of the chest........the triangle and shape of the face/head. If everything looks balanced and it's as if the horse is FULL SIZED......That horse has PASSED.

 

[susanne]

I'm a bit confused by different folks' perceptions of ponies and horses and how different minis compare.

In my opinion, more Classic Shetlands look like the proverbial "horse in miniature" than do most AMHA and AMHR horses. The minis who best fit that description are (again in my opinion) those that are double registered or the tall Bs that look like American Shetlands.

I love all the different types of minis, so I'm NOT maligning any size or type so long as they are well-conformed or criticizing anyone's preference. We have quite a variety in our little herd of four.

 

[Minimor]

If that Hackney looking mini was better proportioned (highly likely) and had less conformation fault than another "mini looking mini" then they deserved to win the class. Period.

That statement should be qualified. If the Hackney looking mini is an honest under 38" then yes, I will agree with you. But, if we are talking about a Hackney looking mini (or anything-looking mini--whether it looks like a QH, an Arab, a Morgan or whatever) that is 2 or 3 or 5 or 6 inches over the 38" height then no, it should not win over anything. Any horse that is over 38" should be turfed out of the class (out of the entire show actually) no matter how nice it is.
If height doesn't matter then we should do away with measuring. Make it a real breed, so that any horse with two registered parents is automatically a Miniature, hardship in any and all the Shetlands you want and then show any and all of them, no matter what size they are.

Otherwise, I like MiLo's list of suggestions. Perhaps it's time to draft a proposal to change/add some rules?

 

[shelia]

I know the original question was about AMHR and didn't say anything about oversize horses, but since the subject has come up I would just like to add this.

I was just reading on the AMHA website and it says all measuring may be videotaped. (then goes on to explain how the measuring is to be done). I don't know if it has always said that or not, but that is a very good idea.

I haven't been to an AMHR show in a while. I am shocked that someone said there would be horse 4 or 5 inches too tall!! I am just as shocked that everybody didn't contest it! If there is no doubt in your mind that the horse is too tall then do something! When people see this does anybody do anything about it?

At AMHA shows I have seen horses that I thought were taller and watched them being measured and they were not. Some horses just seem taller to me than they really are. There was no touching or stretching, just honest measurement.

If I were in a class and lost to a horse that was clearly too tall to be there you bet I would say something! Maybe everybody is worried about being called a sore loser. You say they don't enforce the rules but you also have a responsibility to do something if you see this. Everybody just seems to keep leaving it up to someone else, so nobody does anything.

 

[Genie]

Frankly it's silly to argue over the different "types". It's like arguing over Apples and Oranges......or if you don't like oranges, then Grapes and Pears!!!

Our "B" Minis and Miniature Shetlands happen to look a bit like the Arab "type", but with some substance. The modern Arabs have lost some of their bone, IMO. We also happen to own a full sized Arab.

Our "A" Minis are more medium boned and remind me of another full sized horse we also own, which happens to be a Morgan/Arab cross!

Here's a Test......Take your "perfect" A or B sized miniature horse......no matter WHAT SIZE and place them in a backdrop where you can't tell their height. It needs to be a side shot. Then, look at the length of leg, the slope of the shoulder, the hip, tail set........how the neck comes out of the chest........the triangle and shape of the face/head. If everything looks balanced and it's as if the horse is FULL SIZED......That horse has PASSED.

Thanks for the above post. These are my thoughts as well and I could not put it into words.

On the side topic of "oversize horses" competing, my view is that it's sad they want to win so much, or need the prize money so badly.

When I show for ribbons and prize money, (I have never shown for points)there have been odd occassions I have observed an obvious over size horse.

I have also been told of competitors bringing in horses to competition I did not attend, that were too tall.

Everyone that's been around a while can see the obvious ones that are too tall and the mini horse community just tends to talk about the breeder to everyone that will listen, and who needs that "word of mouth".

In fact one lady brought a horse that I actually sold to her because it was over 34", and she put her in an "A" sized class at the local fair.

In these cases my feelings were "it's too bad that they need to win so badly that they would lie, and they are welcome to the ribbons, if that's what it takes"

As I always told my kids , "If you always tell the truth you don't have to remember what you said"

I tend to believe that if I was spending a lot of money to compete, entry fees along with all the other costs, I would certainly spend the additional money required to contest the measurement of an obvous offender.

 

[MiLo Minis]

If that Hackney looking mini was better proportioned (highly likely) and had less conformation fault than another "mini looking mini" then they deserved to win the class. Period.

That statement should be qualified. If the Hackney looking mini is an honest under 38" then yes, I will agree with you. But, if we are talking about a Hackney looking mini (or anything-looking mini--whether it looks like a QH, an Arab, a Morgan or whatever) that is 2 or 3 or 5 or 6 inches over the 38" height then no, it should not win over anything. Any horse that is over 38" should be turfed out of the class (out of the entire show actually) no matter how nice it is.
If height doesn't matter then we should do away with measuring. Make it a real breed, so that any horse with two registered parents is automatically a Miniature, hardship in any and all the Shetlands you want and then show any and all of them, no matter what size they are.

Otherwise, I like MiLo's list of suggestions. Perhaps it's time to draft a proposal to change/add some rules?

That is exactly where I am going with this. It does not a world of good to be one person protesting one horse. Sure it gets that horse placed where he should be but unless there is some change made to the actual rules, whether it is in the breed standard or in the penalties assessed for the ones responsible for the horse being in the ring in the first place, or both, to prevent this from happening as easily then height just plain doesn't matter and we don't have anything. I am told that this has all been discussed and considered by the board before but perhaps with our collective minds we can come up with a rule change that will, at the very least, give the judges something to work with when judging an obviously oversize pony that doesn't resemble a horse at all, some back up for the stewards that do try to do an honest job, and prevent the dishonest persons from easily getting them in. I think our breed is worth the effort to keep.

 

[bingo]

I show all over the country and have for years and can honestly say I have not ever been in the ring either locally or Nationally with a horse that was 4-6 inches over or even anything close to that.

 

[Jill]

Since this is apparently just another thread about measuring, I hope we are getting it out of the way NOW so we won't need the annual measuring thread that seems to always follow either the World or National shows. It has often felt like an attempt to detract from the pride some rightfully should feel at their accomplishments.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Since this is apparently just another thread about measuring, I hope we are getting it out of the way NOW so we won't need the annual measuring thread that seems to always follow either the World or National shows. It has often felt like an attempt to detract from the pride some rightfully should feel at their accomplishments.

IF they are showing a horse that is truly 38" and under and they win a National title then they are rightfully proud and I applaud them heartily. IF they are showing a horse that is not even eligible to show at Nationals and they win I question how they can be proud of themselves?

When you shrug it off as "just another thread about measuring" it is that attitude that makes it difficult to change things. Obviously you feel we should just do away with the height limit as it is nothing really to waste your time on. In that case Jill, could you please define to me what a Miniature Horse is? I asked for a definition of your breed standard - does that mean your breed standard is over 38"? I have to say that I expected at least one person to suggest raising the height limit so they could legitimately get their oversize horse in. As it stands, from what I can see, that is the only definite standard we have to go by and we don't really even have that! Anything can step into our show ring.

I can tell you that I personally have shown against horses that were considerably over the height limit. When the horse is trained NOT to stand square how do you get an accurate measurement for showing in an AMHR show where the horses are supposed to be measured and shown stood square. One individual protesting does nothing. And don't forget that when you protest and win and the horses below move up there are some horses that don't get in their Championship class because the class has already been run and so they miss out on their rightful Championship that they could be rightfully proud of.

I am in no way trying to take away anything from someone who legitimately goes Champion. In fact I feel that the cheaters who bring in those horses that are oversize are the ones who are taking something away from our entire registry by putting doubt in people's minds about the true eligibility of the ones who do win legitimately.

 

[bingo]

The issue will not be fixed unless people step up and protest. If you truly feel you are showing against a horse that is so much bigger then allowed then protest the class. If said horse is truly oversize then the issue with that horse is solved.

If you are showing against that many grossly oversize horses in your area start protesting and when papers start being lost people will think twice about showing them.

 

[Jill]

Lori, I'm not going to get into an argument with you. Something must have rattled you personally -- no idea what -- but I've not seen a thing on this thread that I haven't read before, year after year. I've done a bit of showing and I've not had a problem with what you are so upset over.

But, I will say that one thing that makes me kind of laugh, year after year, is that this gets hashed out (same perspectives presented) online. If you want to change something, I think you can start by making some calls or some letters to the Registry. Start a petition... DO something, vs. an online "debate". Much as I love LB, I don't think a message board discussion, a bunch of back and forth online, will change a thing.

 

[stormy]

Just a reminder, we all now have a chance to vote on issues in AMHR but YOU MUST REQUEST A BALLOT! We can all submit rule changes as well. Be heard!

 

[MiLo Minis]

Lori, I'm not going to get into an argument with you. Something must have rattled you personally -- no idea what -- but I've not seen a thing on this thread that I haven't read before, year after year. I've done a bit of showing and I've not had a problem with what you are so upset over.

But, I will say that one thing that makes me kind of laugh, year after year, is that this gets hashed out (same perspectives presented) online. If you want to change something, I think you can start by making some calls or some letters to the Registry. Start a petition... DO something, vs. an online "debate". Much as I love LB, I don't think a message board discussion, a bunch of back and forth online, will change a thing.

You must have missed where I said that a rule change proposal to the registry is where I am heading with this. I brought it here to the largest gathering of Miniature Horse people that I know of to get the opinions of as many people in our breed as possible. I too have done a 'bit' of showing and in quite a few places and this is not just happening in my area - it happens at our National Area shows and at our National show. It is becoming a trend in our industry and has been gradually progressing over the past several years. What has me, and obviously a few others, "rattled" more recently is that not only is it threatening to change our horses in height but also in looks, temperament and perception. A tiny Hackney Pony is certainly not what I have in mind when I think of a Miniature Horse and judging from the look of the vast majority of Miniature Horses, including yours Jill, it is apparently not what comes to most people's minds although it does appeal to some. Because of that we cannot rewrite our breed standard to eliminate these animals but we can ask that they adhere to our height limit and think of ways to enforce that otherwise as I have already said repeatedly - we have nothing.

 

[Jill]

As long as this thread is, you can be sure I've missed some posts. You know, the eyes can kind of glaze over... Aren't there steps in place to protest when horses appear way too tall? Is it a matter of needing new rules, or a matter of people needing to put them to use?

Again, showing against 40" horses is just not something that has happened me or my horses. I'm happy with what I have, have done well, and I look to add some AMHR/ASPC blood at some point because I DO like the look I see in many of these animals.