What driving equipment is absolutely neccessary?

[CMR]

I wasn't sure where to post this, because it's about driving, but about driving my draft horse.

:

Okay, well my draft(Montague) just turned three in the end of May. With a lot of help from my RI(actually, she does most of it

: ) we are slowly training him to drive.

I've been taking lessons with Montague for around three months or more, and he's making slow but steady improvement. However, when we first started, he had a tendancy to bolt(learned from previous owners when he was very young), but we worked that out for the most part. He still braces his neck occasionally, to try and get away with things(he's extremely stubborn). He's never bucked, kicked, or reared however, just bolted(Oh joy :lol: ) We are not planning on hooking him anytime soon, and will not hook him until we get everything worked out. We don't have a time limit.

We've just been working him with a surcingle so far, but now I'm looking for a harness to buy. I've asked my RI if there are any pieces I could not put on him, and she says all of them are neccessary. However, I've chosen not to drive him in blinkers. I like the 'More is less' ideal, so is there anything else I could elminate? I asked her about 'checks,' but she said an overcheck would help prevent him from bolting, because he couldn't get his head down to evade the bit/brace his neck(I think theres no point in hitching him if he still has these problems).

I will be doing many hours in the arena before we start trail driving, but after he is a little better broke we will be doing mostly trail driving, with maybe occasional roadwork. Are there any pieces you feel aren't neccessary? Thanks in advance for any replies, sorry for the essay. :lol:

 

[rabbitsfizz]

An overcheck is NOT there to stop the horse bolting.

That is what training is for!!

Having said that, on a horse of his size this must be potentially terrifying so I would start sorting it out- as you obviously are trying to, right now.

What bit are you using??

Get the check off him- if you start using it in this way you will NEVER be able to trust him, believe me- I would get a check rein bit- the very thin snaffle bits, and I would hang it in his mouth on a separate head slip.

Thus he now has two bits in his mouth, one thin and doing nothing and the other with the reins attached.

The thin one is to confuse him as to which but to evade, and trust me on this, it will work- try it and see for yourself.

You MUST have breeching before you put this horse anywhere near a cart- if he has a tendency to run off imagine what he would do if the cart annoyed him in any way!!

The other thing I would suggest is holding the reins a little incorrectly so that you have them crossed over in front of you- this way you can alter stress on the reins again so he cannot take hold of one side.

If you feel him start to resist on say the right, do a sharp right turn, bringing him into you and using body language to bring him round as well, and then turn the other way again quite strongly, building up on the "I am in charge " thing.

It is all bluff with a horse anyway- bluff, trust and training!!

I love that you are not using blinkers- this way you can use body language that a blinded horse would not be able to see.

OK, yo have our attention, NOW where are the pictures??????

 

[CMR]

Thanks for the reply.

He is now in a French Link eggbutt snaffle. I thought that about checks in the first place, that they were just for headset not safety, but after you hear 'Checkreins will keep you safer,' over and over again, you start to doubt yourself.

:

I think the size thing has thrown her off as well, she's a Saddlebred trainer, this is the first draft she's ever trained as far as I know. And I know she was taught the 'saddleseat' way, gadgets galore. I do believe she is wanting checks on him simply because she believes it's safer. I've driven her horse a few times, with no checks. But she is insisting on putting them on him.

Would you happen to have a picture of the bit you recommended, I'm not sure what you're talking about?

I don't think I've even seen a draft harness with checks anyway, at least that's my story :lol:

Here are a few pictures. He's 16ish hands, pictured with my same height warmblood.

 

[kaykay]

i watched a wonderful demonstration with Mike McCabe on using over and side checks to train a horse to drive. Theres so much more to it then teaching the horse to have a correct head set or keeping it from putting its head down. for example he showed how to use the side checks to train the horse to flex at the poll going in each direction. I certainly dont know the things that Mike McCabe knows *boy dont i wish* But I do know that you cant skip steps and expect to turn out a great driving horse. Too many people think that because a horse will wear a harness and is able to line drive that equals a trained driving horse.

I see so many people train horses to drive that have never even flexed their horses necks or even know how. The neck and poll are so important to that horse being able to move right in a harness and cart.

 

[CMR]

Thanks for the other side, kay

We're doing a lot of flexing, he's a lot more responsive if we do. Certainly not going to skip steps, he's too big for that :lol: My RI definitely knows what she's doing, she just has a slightly different view on gadgets than I do.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Kay, with respect, NO checks are ever used here and our horses flex just fine.

Also of course, I have trained- well hundreds, possibly more, riding horses in my time, they all flex fine, from the poll, dropped on the bit were light as feathers and never bolted- I did not once use a check rein.

I am sorry but I see the things as potential evil, and always shall.

It is NOT just the "Black Beauty" syndrome either- get Bonnie to ask one of those horse if they like a check rein.

Again, if you use a check rein to stop the horse getting it's head down to bolt you will NEVER address the reason the horse is bolting- read the thread about Bonnie's reading on a horse that turned out to be in pain and was bolting form the pain- so, it's nose is tied shut, it's head is held up- NOW what does it do??

If I were a horse I would thrash around wildly until I had wrecked the cart!!!!

I would not want to see a horse this powerful learn that the only way he can communicate is with force!

You need to step back and open yourself up, allow the horse to open a dialogue with you.

You need to absolutely sure what you are objecting to- "You MUST NOT bolt...BUT I will listen to why you think you have to...."

I'm sorry I will try to find a picture of a check rein bit- I am gobsmacked that an American does not know about whereas I , who comes form a culture that does not use the bl**dy things does :bgrin

Basically it is just a very, very thin bit that should be used to carry the check rein- which should never be attached to the driving bit- but, as far as I can see from American bridles, always is!!

If you want to try the trick straight away a dog check chain- stainless steel, please- could be used instead.

Just double it over and hang it in the mouth, you can use a boot lace to attach it, it needs no strength.

He looks a nice boy- here he would not be called Draught but Cob- probably no more than Middleweight, although beefed up and fat as the Show Cobs are he might make Heavyweight.

He is still only a baby, though, even though he is three, and obviously has a lot more condition and making up to do, he may well even still be growing.

I think you are well on the right path, merely by constantly questioning.

I think you might start looking for another Trainer, as well, the one you have seems OK but a little too rigid for me.

There may be an old Farmer around who could help- I do not advertise as a Trainer but I would be willing to help out under these circumstances- maybe there is someone like me around to offer support???

:

 

[Sonya]

I have no clue about your question, but wanted to add....I love him, I am a sucker for draft horses! Very nice warmblood too!

 

[kaykay]

rabbit you know i luv ya

But anything can be considered evil in the wrong hands. Cant tell you how many barn halters i have had to cut off rescue horses that had grown into the skin

But are barn halters evil? of course not. Using a side check to train a horse is not evil. Once the horse is properly trained you dont need it anymore but it is a good training aid used properly.

What I really consider evil is people that line drive a horse a couple times then put them in the cart. And usually the cart isnt even hooked up right. Its almost rampant. People are so dang impatient and dont want to take the time to properly train a horse or learn how to harness and attach a cart properly. I went to a club fun show just to help. Saw a woman driving a mare and the mare was such a pretty mover. But she was bucking in the cart. I could easily see that the cart was not attached properly and the poor mare was bumping the back of the cart everytime she tried to trot. I couldnt stand it anymore so after her class I asked the woman if i could help her. She agreed (sometimes ppl get really mad!) I explained to her the mare was bucking because the cart was not attached properly. She had her hooked up to where the shafts were way past the mares shoulder and the cart was bumping her. We unhitched her and hitched her up right. She went into the next class and the mare never broke gait or bucked. The woman was just amazed. Said the mare had never driven that well. I believe they got 2nd.

 

[Minimor]

Get the check off him- if you start using it in this way you will NEVER be able to trust him

, Not so, a horse trained with a check rein can later be driven without one....I've done so.

I would get a check rein bit- the very thin snaffle bits, and I would hang it in his mouth on a separate head slip. Thus he now has two bits in his mouth, one thin and doing nothing and the other with the reins attached. The thin one is to confuse him as to which but to evade,

How bizarre. What happened to your training??? :lol: If the horse is properly trained he won't be evading the bit. Hmm. I have yet to resort to confusion to prevent evasions when training a horse. :new_shocked:

 

[CMR]

Thanks again for the replies

I think was rabbit meant was that if I only use a check because I believe it will stop him bolting, I will never be able take it off for fear of him bolting.

I believe the second bit could also help in his case, because he is not doing it out of fear or confusion, he does it simply because he can, which is something we are still working out, and the second bit could help as a tool to get to where he's light and responsive in the snaffle.

I'm on another horse forum as well, most of those people are in the UK, so I've seen a lot of pictures of cobs. :lol: For some reason I thought they had to be under 15 hands to be classified as a cob?

My RI is the best one I've found around here, it's really hard to find big horse people that have anywhere close to the ideals I have, I'm quite an odd duck :lol: She really is quite open minded(is a reiki practitoner, believes in animal communication, does some natural horsemanship), but checks are just something we have different opinions about. She certainly won't force me to put something on my horse that I'm against.

Definitely couldn't go to a farmer, both of my grandfathers farmed with horses, there is no way I'd let them get anywhere near my horses :new_shocked: They both believe you have to dominate the horse/break it's spirit to get the horse to do anything.

:

I'll look for the bit, it'll probably be in the first catalog I open :lol:

We do have a lot of damage to undo. He learned this bolting thing as young as 18 months, maybe even younger(the owners bred him and had him since he was born, had only been off the property to go to the Mennonites, and they never did anything with him). The previous owners sent him off to the Mennonites for six weeks to be broke to drive when he was 18 months. When I went to look at him in December they told me he had bolted while driving a hay cutter, but didn't get anywhere because he was with two full grown horses.

He was also very flighty at the smallest things(so much so I questioned his eyesight), and also bolted at the tiniest things while being led(if I made a sudden movement with my arm, off he'd go). He no longer bolts while being led, and is no longer jumpy, so that's nice progress. Still a long way to go before we hitch him, though.

Boy, do I know how to babble :lol:

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Babble away this is fascinating!!

The show cobs have to be under the metric equivalent of 15 hands, Yes but he is "Coloured" so the rules change!!

There are classes for "Traditional Cobs" which are basically gypsy horses and a freind showed one that was 16.2hands so I'm not sure what the limit , if any, is on them.

The two bits work, it is as simple as that.

Whenever the kids were starting to ride a new pony that I had trained it went into a double bridle, and my ponies were well known for the softness of their mouths.

The extra bit, in this case, does nothing at all, it just hangs there.

Some may think that bizarre, I do not, as I know how well it will work.

I know I am "blinkered" on check reins, but, as I have said, they are never used here, yet we have horses that flex perfectly.

And naturally too, as it is part of the training.

If you actually rely on a training aid as potentially severe as this I really do doubt you will be able to get rid of it.

He is a big strong horse, he needs real hands on training to get him to see things your way.

If you trust your trainer, great, that's a really good start, but please do not give in on the check rein.

 

[Littleum]

Not so, a horse trained with a check rein can later be driven without one....I've done so.

Same here. An aid is an aid. You start using it as a crutch and you've got bigger problems. Doesn't matter what it is...

I would get a check rein bit- the very thin snaffle bits, and I would hang it in his mouth on a separate head slip. Thus he now has two bits in his mouth, one thin and doing nothing and the other with the reins attached. The thin one is to confuse him as to which but to evade

Never heard of that. Ever. Never seen a horse started in a double bridle to confuse him what bit to evade... Why would you want to let a horse think one bit is for ignoring and one is for contact? Actually, I've always been taught you introduce an (educated) horse to the double by letting the CURB hang there and riding off the brandoon, so they get used to the extra metal, then start picking up the curb.

: Have NEVER heard of starting a horse in the double as the proper thing to do. We must travel in very different circles. I'm going to shoot off some emails to a few sport horse folks I know in the UK to see if that's how it's done over there. Just minor curisoity.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Little-um, Rabbit is not referring to a double bridle. Double bridles are used in saddleseat and upper level dressage and in neither is a check bit used. I suppose they might look superficially similar but there is a large difference in the usage of a check bit and a bradoon bit. The check bit is used to allow a check to keep the horse's head up supposedly without confusing the signals from the reins. A bradoon or snaffle bit on a double bridle is used to maintain contact and support the horse while the curb helps collect them and round their frame. I do not claim to be an expert on the use of a double bridle (I just know how I was taught to use a "snaffle rein" and a "curb rein" on my converted ex-saddleseat hunter horse with a Pelham bit) but I do know the difference between the two.

That stated, I've got to say that using an unattached check bit for the stated reason that "The thin one is to confuse him as to which bit to evade" is one of the dumber things I've ever heard. Now maybe it works, but I certainly hope it isn't because he's all wrapped up in figuring out which bit to avoid! That would be a mightily poor training job.

Basically it is just a very, very thin bit that should be used to carry the check rein- which should never be attached to the driving bit- but, as far as I can see from American bridles, always is!!

It is with minis because as you know we figure another bit is too much metal in their mouths. I believe Saddlebreds and other fine harness horses routinely use check bits.

If you want to try the trick straight away a dog check chain- stainless steel, please- could be used instead.

Now THIS I can't believe, coming from the "Dump the checkrein!" woman. :new_shocked: :no: You think a checkrein is cruel but you'd advocate driving them with a doubled-up chain in their mouths?? Oh my God. I know it's not attached to anything but geez....

Now I do agree with Fizz that the overcheck is in no way going to prevent a bolt. Heck, when my horse goes the first thing he does is throw his head UP! The best way to get them to calm down whether in hand or driving is to get them to put their heads down. This tells their gut that they must be relaxed and the actual relaxation follows. No, wrestling their heads down won't do that but if you can coax them to relax and stretch down on their own it will. How are you supposed to do that with an overcheck?

Your original question was asking if anything is disposable on the harness. My answer is the checks (definitely!), the blinders with proper training, the cavesson if you want to get right down to it (no blinders to supposedly hold in to their heads, right?

: ) and that's about it. Most of the rest of a working harness is there for very good reasons. The throatlatch keeps the bridle from coming off over their heads, the reins are to communicate through of course, the breastcollar and traces to pull with, the saddle and tug loops to hold up the shafts, the backstrap and crupper to keep anything from sliding forward or sideways, and the breeching to hold the cart back from clipping the horse's heels during braking.

Good luck with your fellow, you seem to be handling him well! I actually think it's a very good thing they hitched him with well-schooled adult horses; they will teach a green one that he can't just do what he wants without ever making you the bad guy.

: Good luck bolting with two solid Percherons hitched to you! Haha.

Leia

 

[runamuk]

:aktion033: :aktion033: Leia you always seem to offer the most common sense saftey related approach to driving :aktion033:

My opinion is that you need to decide WHAT your long range goals are.............a fine harness horse ought to be more upright and "fancier" so checks may be a tool to use............personally I don't feel they are neccessary for the majority of driving.................

It sounds like you are willing to give the training the time needed to make a safe happy horse which I think is more important than anything else

:

I would focus on the whoa and the bolting/comfort for now and once the horse is consistent and working willingly then get down to the semantics of tools...........

Now I must say Rabbits suggestion is a bit different (no pun intended) however I can see some serious benefit to this method in re training a dreadfully hard mouthed horse..............odd as it may sound I think there is some merit to the concept and I personally know a couple horses who would possibly have benefitted from that treatment as opposed to the continuously harsher and harsher bit.........this situation I think is miles from that.................but I will tuck that idea away as it could mean the difference between the meat truck and a productive life for an over used hard mouthed animal

:

:

That stated, I've got to say that using an unattached check bit for the stated reason that "The thin one is to confuse him as to which bit to evade" is one of the dumber things I've ever heard. Now maybe it works, but I certainly hope it isn't because he's all wrapped up in figuring out which bit to avoid! That would be a mightily poor training job.

Basically it is just a very, very thin bit that should be used to carry the check rein- which should never be attached to the driving bit- but, as far as I can see from American bridles, always is!!

It is with minis because as you know we figure another bit is too much metal in their mouths. I believe Saddlebreds and other fine harness horses routinely use check bits.

If you want to try the trick straight away a dog check chain- stainless steel, please- could be used instead.

Now THIS I can't believe, coming from the "Dump the checkrein!" woman. :new_shocked: :no: You think a checkrein is cruel but you'd advocate driving them with a doubled-up chain in their mouths?? Oh my God. I know it's not attached to anything but geez....

Your original question was asking if anything is disposable on the harness. My answer is the checks (definitely!), the blinders with proper training, the cavesson if you want to get right down to it (no blinders to supposedly hold in to their heads, right?

: ) and that's about it. Most of the rest of a working harness is there for very good reasons. The throatlatch keeps the bridle from coming off over their heads, the reins are to communicate through of course, the breastcollar and traces to pull with, the saddle and tug loops to hold up the shafts, the backstrap and crupper to keep anything from sliding forward or sideways, and the breeching to hold the cart back from clipping the horse's heels during braking.

Good luck with your fellow, you seem to be handling him well! I actually think it's a very good thing they hitched him with well-schooled adult horses; they will teach a green one that he can't just do what he wants without ever making you the bad guy.

: Good luck bolting with two solid Percherons hitched to you! Haha.

Leia

 

[rabbitsfizz]

This is getting VERY complicated!!

I have no reason to justify or defend my training methods as I have used them so successfully for so long, BUT the check chain in the mouth thing was something I used with Rabbits father , who liked to take a nip in a good natured way at me while trotting out in hand- he had just got into the habit if it.

The dog chain came because it just was not possible to get a bit to fir him at the time, and it too was attached to nothing- ie he was not led off it.

It gave him something to chew on and he forgot about my arm.

I have used it with the same success in a few other cases, since then, serendipity.

It is not in any way harsh- why would you assume that- after all a waterford is not harsh and that bit is used to be ridden off.

The chain, in fact encourages the horse to mouth and keep the mouth supple and well salivated.

The two bits in the mouth is to give him more to think about, rather than full on confusion- I am surprised it is considered so unorthodox, I really am!!

I NEVER used a double bridle without using the bottom rein- both reins or no reins in riding, and yet I have always used a double bridle- it is far LESS severe than a snaffle (which is one half of a double bridle), in the wrong hands.

Each bit has a totally separate action, the bridoon to raise the head and the curb to lower it.

Used in tandem, and used correctly the bridle attains a balance, with control, that a snaffle of it's own would need a drop noseband and a martingale to achieve.

I was taught to ride by Cavalry Instructors- one from the days of Cavalry proper- and so was taught to use double reins and double bridles correctly.We never used martingales - especially not running martingales- at all.

I never saw a running martingale until I was in my twenties and although do think they are a good aid especially for young horses, I do not consider them the cure all that most people seem to.

I am digressing, and hi-jacking the thread, I am sorry.

Leia, before criticising something quite so darningly I suggest you try the "tips" that we "old- timers" have to offer, if and when the necessity arises.

Since you have obviously never had a horse this strong with the tendency to do what is being said, I suggest you wait until you do , to say whether something will or will not work.

:

I have actually been there- not with a horse this big, but with one this strong.

One thing though, Crazy- you are SURE this horse is not getting it's tongue over the bit, aren't you???

 

[sfmini]

Kay, what you are calling a side check is really side reins, which Mike does use in the training surcingle in a round pen and in the stall to teach the horse to give to the bit and bend. The theory here is that the side rein which is made of surgical tubing is a consistent pressure that many people cannot keep with their hands. His driving horses are worked this way for most of the training sessions and only driven maybe once a week. As an owner of a driving horse finished by him (started by me), I have to say his training 'sticks'. Commodity hasn't been with Mike for years and his training is still solid at the age of 17. Also retained is an immediate reaction to MOVE when Mike growls COMMOD!

 

[kaykay]

Jody thanks for the correction!! im still learning. I have still never driven a horse in competition but I try to learn everything I can BEFORE i even go there! I have to say i have watched many driving seminars but I was most impressed by Mike McCabes. He doesnt skip any step and man does it show in his finished driving horses! I have watched many trainers and farms just line drive horses a couple times then throw them in a cart. I have even seen one farm that did it all in one day!!! So I guess my point is not to skip any step and be patient and never put the cart before the horse LOL.

Kay

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Leia, before criticising something quite so darningly I suggest you try the "tips" that we "old- timers" have to offer, if and when the necessity arises.Since you have obviously never had a horse this strong with the tendency to do what is being said, I suggest you wait until you do , to say whether something will or will not work.

Been there, done that Fizz. I have two very strong horses, an Arab and a mini, both of whom have bolted with me in harness and I've learned the hard way that the only thing that stops them is training and trust. You know I take your advice when I think it is something that would integrate well with what I'm doing! But in this case your "old timer" advice is conflicting with the advice given to me by many other experienced classical trainers both in person and in books by the masters (Spanish riding school, high school Andalusians, etc.)

Regarding the chain, my concern is that the dog choke chains I'm familiar with are only comfortable if they are lying gently coiled in my hand. If they twist, they hurt. If they yank, they hurt. You put a chain in a stallion's mouth to control them by pain here in the U.S. and I find that distasteful and an abhorrent idea for a horse that is not aggressive. There are so many ways that you could accidentally cause pressure on that chain even with no rein attached; it makes me extremely leary to use it. Why couldn't she simply use a shoe-lace or round soft cotton cording? It would serve the same purpose much more kindly.

Please remember that we are in different countries and possibly using different terms, and communication over the internet is not always clear. I was shaking my head over using a "side check" to teach the horse to bend, but "side reins" makes much more sense! And the same may be true for "dog chain" and "double bridle," etc.

I believe in working with the horse's brain before all else. So if my horse is evading the bit I want to find out why and explain it to him differently, not put another bit in his mouth to give him more to think about. That's just my personal choice, I'm not saying the same thing as part of a different approach might not be effective also.

: I just like getting my horses to the point where they will do anything at liberty or on a thread that they will do in a bridle! :bgrin So adding more equipment circumvents that goal for me. ::shrug::

I think the original poster is doing a fine job with her horse and commend her for both her patience and her understanding of her animal. She asked if she could lose the check, we all said "yes." Case closed!

Leia

 

[CMR]

Thanks again for your replies everyone

rabbit, we had considered he could be doing that, but when we watched him closely it certainly didn't look as though he was putting his tounge over. He was just clamping his mouth shut, bracing his neck, and taking off. He looked like one of the draft horses you see in the weight pulling competitions. :lol: