Turning in AMHR oversized horses

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LaVern

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A few years ago at the AMHA convention, I asked a lady, that was from the office, how many papers get turned in. She said that very few do. But I don' know what she meant by very few.

I wonder how many AMHR horses get turned in for going over 38 inches. Especially the double registered AMHR/ASPC horses. Have any people that raise them done it?

They are bound to throw some oversized ones, with their background. My guess is that no one has. I think I'll call the AMHR office and ask.
 
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disneyhorse

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With both AMHR oversize and AMHA oversize, I doubt the "majority" of people do... even if they won't admit it. Let's face it... someone at some point spent money getting those papers... and it DOES add "value" to the horse especially if breeding. Yes, they take a chance of the future babies also going over but that isn't a certainty.

Why would people who are SO keen on having REGISTERED horses go ahead and make their precious horses GRADE???

I personally think the "height breed" thing is weird... that an animal can lose all it's value because as it grew up, it got too tall and became "unregistered" with no more pedigree.

Partially why I switched to the ponies
They can go "oversize" and still retain papers to breed with, and the registry has a division to show in for the taller horses if you still want to show and promote in something....

Andrea
 

LaVern

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I called the office and asked, but the lady didn't know how to find that out.
 

Riverdance

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I am one who does not agree with turning the papers in just because they are oversized. There should be a way for these animals to keep their papers for breeding purposes as there are some really fine mares and stallions that may be 34 1/2" or 35". Therse mares and stallions may produce within the height range. If not, and they produce motly oversized, then they will automatically be pulled from any AMHA breeding program, and I would guess it to be the same with the AMHR breeder too.
 

bingo

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I am one who does not agree with turning the papers in just because they are oversized. There should be a way for these animals to keep their papers for breeding purposes as there are some really fine mares and stallions that may be 34 1/2" or 35". Therse mares and stallions may produce within the height range. If not, and they produce motly oversized, then they will automatically be pulled from any AMHA breeding program, and I would guess it to be the same with the AMHR breeder too.
Not attacking you but I hear this defense all of the time. My question is how on earth would they be pulled from any AMHA or AMHR program automatically when the sires and or dams you are breeding to get that offspring are not pulled from any program unless one chooses to be honest and pull them from the program themselves? At what generation does it stop:wacko


If one is already breeding oversize sires and or dams how would there be any difference at all when it comes to the offspring and who is or is not truly in size for the breed in question?

What I don't understand is why is it ok to bend the rules and keep and breed a horse who is say 3/4 of a inch over for it's registry but somehow a person is a profound liar or cheater if they show a horse who is over height. Somehow then it isn't bending the rules but in that case it becomes the person is the ultimate in unethical.
 
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Buckskin gal

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Thanks for asking that question for I was wondering the same thing after seeing the AMHA poll. How about starting a poll on the AMHR oversize turn in? Thans, Mary
 

JMS Miniatures

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I have done it. I had a AMHR/ASPC stud colt that was already 38" as a yearling, turned in his papers, gelded him and tried to sell him as a gelding. Unfortunatly no body wanted him as a gelding and all they were concerned about was if he would mature under 38" when he cleary wasn't going to. He was also foundation certified but go too tall to show in foundation (he wasn't foundation built anyways but still lost $$ on that), he ended up being 44-45" tall as a 2 year old! I finially got him sold and it was way less then what I paid for.

I have another ASPC gelding that I'm hoping will stay smaill enough to hardship in but its going to be awfully close. After my first unfortunate incident I was no longer going to breed AMHR/ASPC horses.

I'm not even going to start with AMHA, but with AMHR atleast they do have a program out there for oversize horses and thats the NSPR. I know its not a breeding registry but atleast its something.

What are the goals for the registeries, for AMHA its to produce the correct smallest horse and not going over 34"
, AMHR its 38". We as breeders should try to respect that IMHO. Atleast until we can try and get a standard for the breed. Yes even some registry should respect that too. If your horse goes over, it goes over, and until the registeries change it we have to respect that, and as breeders its our right to turn these papers in. As they say you can't fight the system, you pretty much have to go along with it.
 

kaykay

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I had an AMHA mare go over. (35") While I didnt turn in her paperwork I never brought her perm. (with the new measuring rule I guess thats a good thing) I have sold all her foals as AMHR only even though none of them has gone over 31.5" (3 foals) Everyone always asks why I didnt go ahead and put AMHA papers on the foals as I guess thats the norm


Recently this same mare just foaled bred to my ASPC/AMHR stallion. Hes 37". The foal is tiny. I suspect he will stay around 34". Hes AMHR registered. This mare although oversize definitely carries the small gene.

I have never had an ASPC/AMHR go over 38 yet. But if I do so what. It will still be a registered American Shetland Pony!
 

LaVern

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Kay Kay. So you are saying you will turn in your AMHR papers if you ever have a filly or colt go over and just have a Shetand Pony. A stallion I can see people doing it, but a beautiful double reg. mare. It would be tuff.
 

kaykay

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Well I would have to do some soul searching just like I did my amha mare. But in the end I would hope I would make the ethical decision. I think for me "just a shetland pony" doesnt fit me at all. To me those shetland pedigrees/papers are just as valuable as an amhr or amha. We have ASPC only shetlands here so we love them all. I have a new ASPC filly coming in a few weeks, I was told she will probably stay under 38 and be able to hardship. But if she doesnt I dont care and I told her owner that. I dont buy them strictly on size. I buy and breed what I like regardless of its size or papers. If what is standing in front of me is an outstanding horse I dont care what papers it has


And this is just me but I think it would be a much harder decision on an outstanding stallion vs a mare. I recently saw an awesome stallion that just missed the 38" mark. I believe he was 38.75. Now that would hurt! Its been my experience that it is much easier to find really nice dbl registered mares then it is stallions. Maybe its just me?
 

Minimor

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I think people continue to breed their "oversize" horses because those horses are likely to produce foals that are small enough to be registered--"legally" registered. That is why you hear people saying that if a horse constantly produces oversize foals that horse will be automatically removed from the breeding pool (or however it was worded above). It's one thing to breed a 39" mare that always produces foals 36" and under; there would be no point at all in continuing to breed that 39" mare if all of her foals end up at 40". Yes, an occasional oversize foal might not eliminate her, but for most breeders it would eliminate her if she produced oversize foal after oversize foal.

Would I turn in my papers if a horse went over 38"? Probably not, just as I don't bother to send in the papers on any of my deceased horses either. I'm not using those for any nefarious purpose, and if I kept the papers on a 39" horse I wouldn't be using those for anything dishonest either. I wouldn't be trying to show the horse, and I wouldn't be bothering to breed the horse, and I wouldn't be trying to sell the horse--with or without papers. If the horse is just here looking pretty standing in my pasture, or pulling a cart around the countryside, and the papers just sit in the drawer for the next 40 years, there's no harm done.

My view on why showing an oversize horse is dishonest--because you are outright lying about the size of your horse. You are saying he is 38" or under and showing him in the 36" to 38" class, when in reality he is 40". I do have a problem with that. If however you are breeding that 40" horse and he's producing 35" offspring, I guess I don't really much care (And remember, I'm not one that is doing this, so don't jump all over me for my "dishonesty"!)--those offspring are legal for registration purposes and for show purposes. Sure, I suppose that someone lied at the time the horse got his permanent papers, or maybe he just grew some more after he got his permanent papers, but if he is routinely producing "legal" size offspring, I just don't have a problem with that. I personally don't think a horse should lose it's papers if it goes over the size limit; I think it should still be considered breeding stock, even though it cannot be shown.

Do you know how many times someone has said to me "if you have a horse that goes oversize, don't turn in the papers, you can still breed it". I recently bought a pony and commented to someone that she is too big to qualify for AMHR. That someone immediately said OH! Whatever you do, don't turn in those R papers!! I pointed out this pony does not have R papers, so there are none to be turned in! But yeah, there are a lot of people that don't believe in turning in papers. Some of these people didn't always think that way--I know very well that some of them have turned in papers in the past, but have since changed their way of thinking. I guess they've seen so many other people breeding (and showing) oversize horses that they have decided that's the way to go.
 
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