Traditional carriage style vs breed ring driving

[Minxiesmom]

(Writing with humbleness and respect to others that have had more experience.) I know this is something that people feel very stongly about, but my feelings have changed about what the judges see and how they place the horses. I have been volunteering at a series of shows as a ring steward, and have been a volunteer judge at a couple of shows, this year. It has really opened my eyes to what the judges see. Granted, these were open shows and not breed shows, but we had a good spectrum of quality horses to look at. I feel there is more acceptance than complete intolerance of traditional style of hand holds and turnout, etc. I feel sometimes people are worried about the detail of their turnout unnecessarily, as long as it is clean and safe. The overall picture is what the judge sees.

I think sometimes, in the past I would see the placings of the class and assume the participant that might have been in wooden wheels, or no running martingale, or using Achenbach style rein handling (for instance), wasn't the winner because of how they were turned out. When in actuality, it was because they didn't have as good a go in the eyes of the judge. For whatever reason the winner was more what that judge liked. Judges don't see the entire class and might miss when one breaks or blows. There might be so much difference between 1st and 2nd in style, that the judge will overlook a booboo. Maybe the backing horse was so much better on the rail, that as long as they backed readily, the judge didn't care that the breast collar bumped the horse's chin. Maybe that particular judge, doesn't care if a horse backs at all!

Many of the AMHA and AMHR carded judges come from other diciplines and are therefore influenced by their past, in what they like. Plus there is so much latitude in what the rules say to look for, that their personal preferences come through. A judge from a Saddlebred background vs a judge from AQHA background will usually pick a different horse for their winners. Watch a show that has four judges and see how their placings are all over the board. Then sometimes, with the same four judges, their top placings will be identical, because those top horses where so outstanding with their go.

There are as many exceptions to the things I am talking about as there are similarities. I am sure there have been judges that are influenced in their opinion by someone sporting wooden wheels vs spoke wheels, but as a whole, I don't think it is as common as some might think. I know many will disagree with my opinion on this, but I might suggest they volunteer as a ring steward, or a judge a small show. It has really changed how I look at things. It has made me realize the judge probably didn't even notice there was no martingale on a particular horse, but liked his go the best.

Carriage style driving is very unique in its style and rules, vs breed ring driving. It could be an additional class that is offered to people in the breed ring. But it is more an equipment difference than a horse difference. Upheaded, collected horses are what the carriage style drivers at the upper levels, look like to me are what is preferred. Some people prefer knees up trots, some people prefer swinging, reachy trots.

Personally, I show with no martingale and wear my fancy church clothing and hats. The lash on my whip is about 12" and I try to carry it at a 45 across the horse. It hasn't seemed to hurt me, but to the contrary, the judges notice me. It is then my job to show my horse to the best of my and his ability, and hopefully that particular judge likes me better than my competitors, that day! Please remember, this is my opinion and my experience. Other people have different experiences which have formed their opinions.

In Pinto, I am high point in the State of Oregon, and ended up 4th in the nation in pleasure driving, this year.

 

[RhineStone]

Diane, beautiful turnout! It looks like you could cross over very easily into the ADS ring, minus the overcheck. If more people would turn themselves out as such, we might get somewhere!

I agree with what you say, that a breed judge is picking the best horse that he sees. I just wish that safety trumped the horse's performance in the breed ring. We aren't doing our competitors any favors by "allowing" for harnessing errors. The example I mentioned of the collars were full neck collars attached to a pole, so not having the false martingales was truly a safety issue. And sometimes judges have to pick the "least of evils", meaning that maybe a horse didn't back well, but it did the rest of the class right. Once, after we won a Working Pleasure class, I happened to be in the dinner line with the judge in front of me. I asked her very nicely what see saw in our turnout that she pinned us 1st. She said that she did not have us placed first at the beginning of the class, but overall, we had the most consistent go.

You are right that upper-level carriage driving generally has more upheaded horses, but that goes along with good dressage training, which is how carriage horses are generally trained. It is also the beauty of carriage driving that a good moving horse is a good moving horse, no matter what the breed, bloodline, color, or person holding the lines. We have a "flat" moving Arab cross, and my 37" mini who moves like a Morgan, round and reaching. Both have placed well under many judges. No need to use weighted shoes or training devices, if your horse moves well, the judges will reward it. Your horse can be low and long, or upheaded and round. Your horse can have great ambition, but he better keep it under control! Judges want a horse that can show three distinct trots, move out big when asked and then stand stock still for lineup. That, my friends, is a pleasure horse!

I see carriage driving as being so "no nonsense" in terms of training, conditioning, showing, and judging. There is a logical reason for most everything that is done, besides "style" or "that is what wins". Bad manners are totally not tolerated. I think that is also more common in the open ring, too. If a horse is "blowing up", they are excused from the ring. I can't see where a horse in a "pleasure" class shouldn't be able to go down the road after the class. It seems the mini shows keep adding classes for "pleasurable" horses, only to have that class dominated by "hotter" horses, so that another "calmer" horse class needs to be added. This seems to be happening in the other breed rings, too.

I also get very frustrated with some show ring technique that is a direct contradiction to good driving, such as harnessing the horse so that the traces are slack and the horse is pulling with its withers, just to free up the shoulder. Instead, they need to get equipment that will allow the horse to use it's shoulders to the best of it's ability without causing the horse undo discomfort (thankfully, horses can tolerate a lot without making too much fuss). ALL drivers need to understand a logical reason they do anything before they do it, not just because "so and so" does it that way. And judges need to be educated enough to disallow techniques that are not in line with good driving practices. That is my vision for the future so that mini driving is looked upon as credible, as it could be.

 

[Minxiesmom]

Myrna,

I couldn't agree with you more!!! That is why someone like you SHOULD drive in the breed shows and show them what a really well trained horse can do. Also they can see that a well done ADS style turnout CAN win.

I have seen Ron Whiteman in his Pacific Smart Cart showing against everyone else in their Jeralds and he does extremely well! His horses are very well trained. I have taken a driven dressage lesson from his wife Dorothy and gotten tons from it. They both do very well in the breed ring out here on the West Coast.

The main reason for my post was to encourage people who read this forum, that we never hear from, that driving can be done properly in the breed ring and win. Not all breed ring horses are untrained. Maybe we can encourage more people to research driving styles. Maybe more people would be able to represent mini driving that is acceptable to the ADS community, and therefore taken more seriously. This is not meant to put down breed ring driving and trainers. Just the opposite is my intention. I think there are a lot more horses in the breed ring much better trained than people realize, and with an equipment change could cross over easily to ADS style.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I think you have a very valid point Diane and it's something we all need to remember. I've been a judge at high level model horse shows (think customized Breyers) and it's amazing the different systems judges use to place a class! I look first for which models catch my eye and make me go "Wow," then I start examining those horses closely for conformation, workmanship, paintjob, style, any dings or scratches, etc. I make a point of taking a good solid look at the horses who didn't catch my eye to make sure I'm not missing something, but with 30 or 40 models on the table and only eight placings I will usually choose from my original picks. Without understanding the system I'm using my placings may seem totally random to someone else while from my perspective they make perfect sense and I'm sure the same is true of judging real horses.

I think the registries have already made some effort to include carriage style turnout in the shows and I do enter them but it's almost more frustrating to be in those classes as the judges have no idea what they're looking for, not because they're stupid or biased but because no one has taught them what the differences are supposed to be between one style of driving and the other. It's just a whole different ballgame from the way the horse is trained to the final characteristics that are valued.

I know for me, personally, it's all about working to better the horse. I want the way I drive him to improve his looks and soundness over the years and help him to move the best he can for his conformation. The most beautiful thing I can think of is a horse working effortlessly through his topline, proud and elegant and relaxed and happy all at the same time. I am a classical horsemanship devotee at heart; I don't breed so I find that my pleasure in life is making each horse I have the best they can be. In general whether I approve of someone's training or not is based on one thing- is the horse helped by it? Is he made happier, prouder, more engaged, more beautiful by it? Or does he become sour and bored, physically stiffer, his muscles more and more slab-like or hollow over the topline? I have found what I consider to be good trainers showing in the breed ring and bad trainers in the sport of carriage driving. I always look to the horse before I form an opinion of the driver.

What I wish in my heart of hearts is that regardless of the style of driving or riding or equine competition, the horse would be put first and training that encourages his happiness and longevity rewarded. It's a pipe dream but if we stop fighting for it or getting out there and showing that horses trained in such a fashion can win, it will never happen. The horses are worth it.

Leia

 

[Minxiesmom]

TeeHee...Leia, you have a tall soap box

, and you said it so eloquently

. I can just see you with a herd of Breyers, having a horse show!!!!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

*shakes head* I'm never going to live that down, am I? Believe it or not it's a serious and very high-dollar hobby when you get into the artist resins and special editions and such like I was. I campaigned several National Champion repaint/remake halter models and created multiple performance setups that went National Top Ten against 1:9 scale Traditional models...when the horses were smaller than a quarter. I've always been serious about competing the little guys!

Leia

 

[Shari]

Cool Leia. I know someone that used to do those high end model shows. Goodness.. their set ups could cost as much or more as a real horse and you can make some money if you are good enough.

Very nice turn out Diane.

 

[RhineStone]

You guys are so right! You almost make me want to try the breed ring again, just to see what would happen. I drove Alax tonight, he is getting a great extension in his strong trot!

Diane said that this thread was not to put down breed ring drivers and trainers, but the opposite. I agree, but what I and my friends have witnessed is that ADS drivers around here are actually scoffed at by other breed ring drivers and trainers, like we don't know what WE are doing, when we have seen exactly the opposite. Some breed drivers don't attach the false martigales on full pair collars, and then turn around and poo-poo that the breeching is still on my friend's harness and her lash is too long!

It's that type of stuff that I think needs to go away through education. Using whip and breeching good, stopping with withers, bad.

I don't want to take my multiple ADS-winning B mini to a breed show, and get "looked down on" for doing things within the rules, but different.

Actually, that is probably the underlying reason why I am so frustrated with breed shows, and maybe I shouldn't make generalizations for the rest of the country for what we have seen here. I suppose it is just like what I have heard about carriage drivers out East, that they are so much more competitive, and are not as nice as those in the Midwest. I don't know if that is true or not, but we have plans to show out East next year, so I guess we will find out! Here, just about anyone will do anything for you, competitor or not!

Myrna

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

many years ago I mead a living doing model horses, and traveled as far as Reno or Vancouver (from SoCal) to judge shows. Believe it or not, many model horse enthusiasts no more about breeds and genetics and show rules than real horse breeders or owners! Kinda scary when you think of it!

In fact, I learned to harness with models - and when I got my first pony and her first harness, the only problem I had figuring things out was that I couldn't turn her upside down to fasten all the straps!

 

[Minxiesmom]

Myrna,

I think this is typical throughtout the horse industry. They reiners think the Pleasure horse riders don't know what they are doing, the WP riders don't think the Saddlebred people know what they are doing, some pony people look down on the minis...etc. Everyone thinks their's is the BEST way to train a horse.

We have many ADS drivers around here that poopoo the breed ring drivers as only able to drive around in a circle. They don't seem to understand it takes a well trained horse to do it right! I have learned to put my money where my mouth is and show in both worlds and do fine! They can't always do the same, for whatever reason. It is ok! There are several ways to get there...from here. Horses are so forgiving, they can be trained in many different ways and come out happy and doing well, just as Leia said.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

I used to do the Breyer thing, too, only mine were vintage Original Finish models. I did performance until I couldn't see well enough to do up those tiny buckles. And I did well. Most of the time I won the Grand Champion in the vintage and Stablemate divisions. At the last Natioanls I attended I took 86 models and came home with 56 Top Tens, three Res Champions and I think three or four Grands.

But, the model horse hobby and the Mini horse hobby are both expensive, so I had to choose one. I took the Minis. I've been there, done that and helped write the book... (honest- if you check out the most current Breyer guide, most of the Stablemates pictured are mine. The ladies that wrote the Guide are close friends!)

Back on topic, Diane, VERY nice turnout, and I agree with what you stated!

Lucy

 

[squeaky]

Hi,

I just wanted to comment that I took lessons from a very competitive trainer here in Washington a few years ago. The way she taught her horses was through dressage principals, and by working them slowly to achieve the headset that everyone wants. in fact, that's how I have always learned to drive horses, was by having them use their whole body. Our horses were never looked down upon in the show ring for this. In fact, i am a firm believer that every horse should be taught the basics of dressage, and so they can learn how to use their bodies correctly, and move through their toplines. While they may not be as flashy as the ones that are cranked up, they will have a steadier go, and will be more powerful than a horse that is cranked up and breathing fire. One of the first things I look at when watching driving classes is who is working off their hindquarters, and are straight in the bridle. I know this comes from my dressage background, and i know that everyone looks for different things, but these two items such be considered greatly in our breed driving classes.

As for driving turnout, I think as long as it looks neat and polished, there should be no reason for a judge to look "down" at the entry. No where in the rule book does it say that we have to a certain cart in order to show. It might be different in other parts of the country, but I have shown in a variety of classes, with different carts, and that hasn't affected my placings at all. I do think that the type of cart you use does depend on what class you are going in. An metal or Jerald easy entry cart in a single pleasure class doesn't give the same impression as a smart cart or a closed basket cart. Currently I am showing my mare in country pleasure with just the wooden basket as the cart didn't come with the basket cover. At first I preferred to have a cart with a cover, but now I am liking the look of the wooden basket.

Anyways, it feels like I am rambling now and not making sense. I guess that is because I just got done with work and it's three am....so I am going to stop here before I start with the gibberish.

Amanda

 

[R Whiteman]

There is absolutely no reason that the same horse can not be shown successfully in both the breed rings and at carriage driving events. A well-trained and talented horse will be noticed. It is knowing how to adapted the turnouts to accommodate the venue of the day that is the real trick to moving back and forth between the two showing worlds.

To that end, a firm understanding of the rules and customs of both worlds is a must. The old rule," When in Rome …" applies . If one goes to a Toga party in blue jeans even with a hat, they might get noticed but they won't most likely win the best Toga turnout for the night.

Many of the trainers that show in the breed ring do have a strong foundation of skill and knowledge of dressage. They also probably read the same books as you and I and possibly understood them better than I did. Many of the people some are so quick to criticize have forgotten more about horses than some folks have every learned. We need to remember that they are meeting the needs of a great many people that come with diverse skills and knowledge levels. Those people provide the economics to allow the breed to develop. What would the VSE world be like if a few of us "Show folks" had not gotten involved a few years ago?

Ron

 

[Minxiesmom]

Ron,

Post one of those nice pictures of you showing in the breed shows with the Smart Cart, please.

 

[MiLo Minis]

I agree with what Ron said. I show both breed ring and carriage driving and I train in the "carriage driving" manner. I do make small changes to my look and harnessing for showing in the breed ring in order to "fit in" and my horses do well in both venues. I don't think that the few minutes they spend in a breed ring as opposed to the hours put in at home are going to ruin them for carriage driving any more than carriage driving ruins them for breed showing. I think that proper carriage training does increase their overall ability in both areas whereas those that are trained in the "breed ring" manner are not necessarily so competitive in the carriage driving world but then they don't get there quite as quickly either and for someone whose interests lie mainly in achieving titles on their breeding stock that is of prime importance - time is money.

 

[ClickMini]

I do both and love both. If I have to choose, I would choose combined driving. Not for any reason other than I just love going to the CDEs and camping out with my horses.

A horse can definitely learn to do both well. If a horse is good in the show ring and loves their job, it doesn't take much to turn them into an ADS style horse. Relax and stretch, a little more bend, and we're there.

I think it is really good for a driving horse to be able to do both. I also think it is good for a driving horse to be good at obstacle driving. It keeps their minds fresh and they don't just "check out."

My only regret in combined driving is that it is difficult to impossible to compete more than one turnout.

 

[Kendra]

I agree that very few judges would penalize a driving horse for a carriage driving style turnout. There are a few, I know one judge who has repeatedly said she doesn't use horses who don't have martingales on, but generally, they're judging the performance of the horse.

My driving horse doesn't like a check of any kind. Even with a loose sidecheck he turns his neck all upside down and sticks his nose out. I buckled his sidecheck to his noseband rather than the bit and he was happy. I showed him under 18 AMHA judges in country and roadster in 2009, and no one ever noticed that the check wasn't attached to his bit. He finished the year with 3 grands and 2 reserves, and he was high point roadster horse for our club. He also went to his very first combined driving events this summer. The first was a full CDE and we were eliminated due to my screw-up - Hawk was a star, finished the marathon with a resting heart rate, had a good dressage score and was the talk of the cones competition. The next driving trial we went to Hawk won training level over all, against big and little.

Anyway, sorry, I get a little carried away when I get a chance to talk about my horse!

The point is that I agree, horses can definitely do both!

 

[RhineStone]

We went to some friends' house last night for New Year's. They are fellow carriage drivers, but used to show Arab shows. They are considering trying the mini breed shows. They think that a bunch of us ADS drivers should go to the same mini show/class, and see how it goes. So, when we came home last night, (WAY TOO LATE, or "early"

) I looked up the classes at the local mini shows in our area. They offer Single Pleasure, Country Pleasure, and Western Country Pleasure. Where does an average ADS horse fit into those classes?

(Actual question, no sarcasm.)

My husband is concerned that since we don't breed or sell horses, or have a desire to go to Nationals, that we wouldn't even get looked at. I said that I guess I would figure my purpose in being there would be to "introduce" other mini drivers in our area to another way to drive, considering that I refuse to give up my horse's breeching.

I would probably take my mini Meadowbrook because it is lighter than my Phaeton Cart, considering that they generally don't show on grass like the ADS shows here. My mom also has a Jerald-type cart, but it is SO uncomfortable!

Hardly any padding whatsoever, and it still has wooden wheels. I think the wire ones that came with it rusted a long time ago in the tack room.

Anyway, you all have me thinking about this crossover, and I hope that what you all experience at your breed shows is the way that it would be around here. My friends last night seem to think that since there have been more carriage-related articles in breed magazines, that people are more accepting than even a couple of years ago. These are not the same friends that have shown the mini breed shows for the past few years, so they may have a little different take on it.

If we decided to do this, my heart would probably still be at the ADS shows

, especially since you can do so much more driving, with different judged classes and obstacles and not having to sit through Halter classes. If I have to get all spit and polished, I want to be able to drive!

 

[targetsmom]

At first I thought that since I don't really show at "breed shows" (i.e. AMHA/AMHR) then this thread didn't really apply to me. But I do show at Pinto shows, and the judges are from other "breeds" including AMHA and AMHR, and not very likely to be the ones you would find at an ADS show. And the driving classes are just "Pleasure Driving" so you don't have to decide which class to go in. The classes at our New England Pinto shows often have up to 10 entries, MANY of whom are using ADS style carts, harnesses, and turnouts. I do think these "breed show" judges do a pretty good job, although sometimes I can't figure out how they placed the class, even when looking at photos. I have had classes where 3 of the four judges LOVED us and the 4th never placed us - but that is part of showing. I do intend to go to some AMHA shows this year and plan to enter the new Classic Pleasure Class. I hope to show Ruby, the red and white mare in my new avatar, and may use the wooden wheeled cart, apron, etc.. Anyway, some of these judges may have already seen the ADS carts at our Pinto shows.

BTW, at our pinto shows, there are 4 open driving classes for minis (including obstacle), plus one for Ammys, and our minis also do hunter, jumper, trail, halter, and color, so we don't get bored! Driving is last, and often after dark, so we do get TIRED though.

 

[disneyhorse]

Your "crossover" classes from ADS to breed ring driving would be Country Pleasure or Western Country Pleasure. Wooden wheels and breeching are more common there, as well as a looser check rein.

Which one of those, will depend on how your horse carries itself. A more upright mover would be Country, and a horse that really carries it's poll at wither level would be more Western (think quarter horse, or other stock horse breeds).

Andrea