Stifle Problems

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rubymtminis

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I have a new gelding, I think he has decent conformation, can't post pictures. I kinda rescued him 9 months ago, we had a hard winter so couldn't do alot with him until end of June. He had been kept in a very, very small pen, I didn't relaize until I led him onto the dirt driveway to load him in our trailer that he was having trouble walking. I thought he was just a little timid while leading him to the driveway, the weeds and grass were real long. As I opened the trailer door I realized his hooves were overgrown a good 5 inches or so! I was horrified and so was my husband, and we felt like idiots not noticing when we got to his pen. He was only 18 months, was being fed horrid grass hay. and comparing him to others I have fostered (I actually paid for him) I think he had gone a year with no exercise, decent nutrition, or probably hoof trimming too. Up to now I have been worming, trimming, feeding, supplementing, vet check, vaccination, the whole routine. Recently I started concentrated training and exercising the same as my other minis. He played with his buddy another colt with no problem. To make a longer story short, I always noticed he seemed stiff in his stifles as I put him through exercises like yielding hindquarters ect. He was active and (his hooves turned out beautiful), played hard. So I thought it was my imagination. Two weeks ago he seemed worse after some harder exercise, his stifles started popping and I felt heat at both joints and he acted like he was in real pain. So after researching this forum, I have him started on Fluid Action, additional MSM, light walk/trot over widely spaced ground poles in a 65' roundpen for a total of ten minutes. At first I gave him Banamine to ease the pain/inflammation. He also gets Timothy hay, Enrich 32 2x daily 1/2 cup with grass pellets. He is a good weight, he gains easily so I watch the rations.

Questions I have are how long until I notice an improvement? And should I change anything in his exercise routine or feeds? When I have time we also go for 1 to 2 mile walks. It has only been 4 days now and I want to give him a chance to heal and not cause furthur damage before taking the vet route with surgery. I have not dealt with a severe injury before thankfully with any of our horses. So any advise or outcomes you could share would be greatfully appreciated!

Thanks Becky
 
wish i had so words of wisdom for you but this really is not an area i am very good with, but i wish you and your mini the best and hope with time he will be able to live out a happy healthy life with you in his new home.
 
There have been quite a few topics about stifle on this forum, and to me, it sounds like you know what you are doing.

It also sounds like the little guy is lucky he found you
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We have had several horses (purchased) that ended up with stifle issues. A lot of folks say many will outgrow the problem. So far, none of ours did. We had surgery on one mini that only had problems with one leg and all is good. Another one that had both legs with bad stifles (at 3 yrs. old) we had one leg done and it seemed to make the other leg worse, so we had that leg done also. He is great now. Making a wonderful driving horse. He seems much happier even if he has to lay down when resting (he did this before the surgerys also). We have a colt here now that belongs to someone else and he is approx. 5-6 mo. old. The other day his right back leg locked. We tried everything and could NOT get him unlocked. He was like that a day and night. He looked SO pitiful! If it were my colt, I'd have surgery done and not wait to see if he would outgrow it. It's an easy surgery and ours ran around $250 total for both legs. JMHO.

Pam

(horsefeathers)
 
Thanks to all for the comments. Hope I have more from people who have experienced this. The reason I was long-winded in my story is that I thought his lack of proper nutrition and exercise his yearling year, plus extremely overgrown hooves might have caused this to begin with. That is why I thought supplements, diet and proper exercise might work given enough time. I have a wonderful vet and wouldn't hesitate, my darn house kitty is there frequently for this and that. He hasn't locked up, just very stiff. I can move his leg forward and back and he loves that so much he goes limp. I sure appreciate your advice and story horsefeather.

I need to figure out a timeline to decide if this particular route is not going to work. And did your vet take xrays first, or will they show anything?

Thanks
 
I have a 2 year old with a bi lateral upper patella fluxation ...same problem , she was kept in a small pent for the first year of her life because the breeders didnt have the space for a turnout
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... This is our story..

she walks like she has a saggy diaper on , and her hind feet track up about 1 inch outside the front ones. She is with an expierenced trainer right now for rehab, and he is working closly with a vet and ferrier, between the 3 I know she is in good hands. We are trying to correct this in a natural way first , and the vet is 100 % sure this will work.

She is WALKED 3 or 4 times a day , no turns , no round pen , no running , just straight forward and up a LOT of hills (mountains actually ) to strengthen the muscles in front of her knee. Do not stall rest a horse with this problem because it will only get worse. This is a common problem in minis and ponys, and a lot of people dont think they need pasture , this only makes the problem worse , mentally and physicaly. Her toes are trimmed very short every 2 weeks...and now we are into the 3 rd week of her rehab, and she is doing a lot better , and almost completely balanced. The trick is correcting the hoof with trimming , because she is probably walking on the outside of her hoof to relieve some pain. Soooo... please find a good vet that knows a lot about conformation , and a farrier that will listen to the vet...and do a lot of walking up hills , try to avioid tight turns and circles, and let her run on her own in a pasture. Let me know if you need more info, I have some printed out. good luck.
 
If it has only been a few days since you have noticed this problem and administered his new regime, I believe I would wait a bit before any drastic measures are taken. It would be good to get a Vets opinion of him however so you can set your timeline.

You could very well be right, locked in a small stall with no exerices or pasture time "is not good" at all especially in the younger years.

Good luck and let us know how he does.

Beth
 
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Becky and Krissy, can I applaud you both right now??
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You are each handling this issue extremely competently and I feel your horses are very, very lucky to have you. You can look up my topics from spring of '08 to find out what happened with my own horse, but suffice it to say my gelding locked terribly for years and I tried everything I could think of to no avail. He was literally fit enough to run marathons (we compete in Combined Driving against the big horses), on a wonderful joint supplement, getting plenty of selenium and not overloaded on protein, etc. etc. and nothing helped. I even installed a board across the door of his stall so he had to step over a cavaletti every time he went out for water or in for food or potty! I figured that might help the same way having stairs in your house gets you toughened more than once a day on a StairMaster will.
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We did cavaletti work too, and as much hill work as I could find in our road-riddled area. Nothing helped.

We finally took the surgical route when he was 7 (doing the splitting in fall) and then when that made him WORSE we did the full desmotomy in spring just before his 8th birthday. I was so worried about it, but it's been wonderful! He hasn't locked once since the day of the surgery and has not only gained 10lbs of muscle in his hindquarters but has completely changed how he moves. He's so much happier now.
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While doing farm visits in my area recently I've been introduced to several young minis who lock, and it's been interesting. One of them is a lot like Kody and there's no way, in my opinion, that she is going to get better without surgery. Yes she's young and skinny and undermuscled, but she recoils back and out to the side with every single step she takes at a walk. I don't think she's capable of doing enough rehab to even attempt to remuscle her! Like Kody, she's so locked in her pattern of moving that she probably can't break it on her own. This mare is three and has been doing this since she was a weanling. Her full sister does it too, by the way, although neither parent does and neither do any of the other foals raised identically. Hmm. Genetic component, anyone?
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They're turned out in a large pasture to run and play in a herd all day and seem to get plenty of exercise. Anyway, at that point I was even more convinced that when a mini does this that badly it isn't going to go away no matter what and they will probably need surgery eventually. The sooner the better in a terrible case like that, so they stop doing so much damage to their joints and muscles in the back and don't get locked into that pattern of movement!
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Kody had eight years of moving that way to learn to undo and it took him almost a year and a half of steady dressage work and physical therapy to learn to move naturally. I still get teary when I see him kick at a fly on his belly without thinking- that's such a huge thing for him.

But the other two horses I've seen do this recently were a little different. Yearlings, both of them, skinny and gawky and at a big growth stage and in fairly small paddocks that didn't encourage running around. And in each case, when they locked the leg actually locked in full extension and could not be released at all without outside assistance. This is not the pop-and-release locking I was familiar with, and that both my horse and the three year old I saw did routinely. The one horse required a vet's assistance and some muscle relaxants to release the leg the couple times he locked but was normal in between events and is now doing fine as a two year old in a home where he gets plenty of exercise. The other colt I can verify personally was fine for the first year and some-odd of his life and then locked hard in the right hind a couple of weeks ago and couldn't release it for two or three minutes. When he did it tried to lock hard again with each step so we kept him moving for a few minutes until it loosened up and then kept him turned out with a buddy in a large space for the next couple of hours and gave him some Banamine. He didn't lock hard like that again but is "poppy" feeling in his hindquarters if you lay a hand on him while he's moving and seems to be striding a bit short back there at a walk and trot. This colt is one I'd wait on trying surgery for as there are so many factors that can be remedied which may improve or completely fix this tendency. He's going to be turned out with a more active horse who will actively encourage him to run, he's getting lots of groceries at the moment to get some weight and muscle on him and he's been placed in a larger turnout area overnight to help him think a little freer mentally. (My gelding would consistently lock up the moment he walked through a stall door even though he could do the exact same maneuvers just outside the stall with ease. You could see the look of dread on his face as he anticipated of a night of locking and he'd tense up so much he started doing it!) We'll see how that goes but I'll bet that as his front end catches up with the growth of his hindquarters (he's butt-high right now) and he muscles up he'll probably stop doing it. If not, we'll consider surgical options.

I guess my point is that there really do seem to be several different kinds or at least degrees of upward fixation of the patella and those factors are all going to play into whether or not your guy will get better without surgical assistance. The yearling I think may improve only started doing this after a major growth spurt that straightened out the angles in his hind limbs, is skinny, and did it during the period of confinement itself. It sounds like your guy did not lock DURING his time of poor nutrition, confinement, and bad feet but started this recently and that concerns me a little. So does the heat and the look of pain- have you checked with your vet to make sure he doesn't have an actual injury? There are many kinds of stifle problems, upward fixation is only one! Stringhalt and several other things can look similar on first glance.

If you get a confirmed diagnosis of UFP, then the exercise program you've described should improve things for him at least a little. If nothing else he'll be happier!
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I can't tell you how long in months or days, but I'd say if he's gained strength and muscle tone all over and has become fit and tough and he's still doing it you've got a problem. The kind that's going to go away should do so as soon as the problems that caused it (undermuscling, selenium deficiency, etc.) are remedied.

One thing you might look into that I didn't consider as a therapy when my horse was locking is massage. I've found a wonderful practicianer that does myofascial release, sports massage, energy work and red-light lasers/pulse magnetic therapies and is working with my gelding on his current back injury and all the deep muscular problems left over from having locked every single day for eight years.
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She's awesome! She is able to tell me all the areas he's got movement blockages and is helping to reintegrate his body and release all that deep tension so he can move more soundly. If he'd had someone like her when he was locking he might not have gotten so bad in the first place and would be in far less pain now.
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Massage is not going to cure the locking, but it sure could help relieve overall soreness and muscle knots that develop as a result of the physical stress of locking.

Kody saw a talented and gentle chiropractor for years and she helped a lot, but now I'm gaining a deeper osteopathic understanding of how much of the constant reoccuring misalignment in his back was caused by muscular imbalance. Fix the muscles and he doesn't NEED a chiropractor anymore! The surgery by itself allowed him to track straight and changed the uneven wear patterns on his hind hooves, the chiro kept temporarily straightening his back and relieving his discomfort, and now the massage practicianer is releasing the muscles that kept pulling it back into misalignment and providing a much deeper level of comfort for him. Kody also has a Reiki practicianer now and he LOVES that, but I don't think it would do anything to address the stifle issue except to relieve pain.

Keep on with your program as is Becky, and let us know how he does. Your little guy can go on to lead a useful, wonderful life!

Leia
 
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Thanks hobbyhorse 23... It was a tough decision to pull her out of showing, as i purchased her just for showing, but her health is far more important than a crummy ribbon. I will only do rehab exercise with her for the next year to make sure the problem corrects its self completely. I love massage therapy on horses..to me it is as important as picking hooves, I agree that it would be benificial to get the blood circulating and keeping muscles flexible. I think you are right there are many variations of this problem from mild to extream, so its best to work closely with a good vet, and do your homework, if I didnt look into this further I would have kept doing her round pen work thinking I was helping.
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I would have ruined her knees for sure accidently...ALWAYS ASK , thats my motto, and NEVER think you know everything about your horse , chances are there are a million people out there that know a whole lot more than you do , and naturally a LOT that know a whole lot less. ( they are the ones that tell you they know everything) My horse would have been a beautiful show horse if the breeders would have just let her have a place to stretch her legs out for the first 2 years of her life. She had a lot of mental issues that have completely gone away with a good pasture , some friends , simple healthy diet , and lots of hugs and kisses, and massage . She is extreamly affectionate, and loves to hook her neck around mine, thats worth more to me than a blue ribbon. good luck , and keep us postes , I will too with my little mare.
 
Wow, you all gave me alot to think about. Gratefully I have never had to deal with an injury or accident before. All the reading in the world doesn't address what you need when something happens. I vaguely remember seeing a farrier truck at my vet office. Hopefully he works with a knowledgeable one. So far all the farriers I can find in this area are worthless. So tomorrow I will make an appt.

Thinking back now I recall that this little guy and his buddy had 6 months of hard playing and he had no problems other than once the deep snow was gone I did notice he was a little stiff in the stifle. I took his buddy to my granddaughters last month, but he has the pasture and another to play with. He loves to run and run. I do remember about 10 days ago hearing the horses milling and running around late one night. Since the hubby was sleeping soundly, I, in my pj's went out to see what the commotion was. I realized when I got past the edge of where the light shown that I had the tv remote in my hand instead of a flashlight LOL! Anyway, Kamaole' was really reactive and spinning and wheeling and running in his pen 35' X 80'. I had just started really working with him, to get him in better shape and trick training until next year when we hope to start driving. He is built like a quarter horse, with a powerful chest and hindquarter. Now I realize it was after that night when I took him out to work that he didn't want to move much and I felt heat in the stifle. I will bet that he had a deficiency in the stifle and then injured it. I hope we can fix him and that he can lead a useful life. He is so beautiful and has such personality. I started learning how to train for tricks with him because we noticed he like to do tricks on his own. He is a riot and loves to learn new tricks.

In Arizona we had a wonderful horse chiropractor. She worked on alot of rehab horses at rescues and my guys were there regularly. I even convinced a lot of hardened ropers to take their horses to her. So I do believe.

I know a lot but have so much more to learn. Thank you so much to everyone. I will be updating. This site has helped me learn so many things about minis. I was a lurker for a long time, so I know there are many out there getting the information they need to be good and informed owners. Becky
 
Sounds like you're on the right track. Have the vet take a look at him to see if it's an injury, and then if the vet okay's it I'd do a lot of long, straight, easy hand-walks and lay off the cavalettis and other strenuous work for now. As Krissy mentioned about the roundpen, you could be doing a lot of harm by accident by treating the wrong thing. We all run that risk!

When Kody first hurt his back this spring it kept showing up as odd lamenesses in different legs that at first the new male chiro could fix. Kody got a month's complete layup while I was sick with the flu and he seemed fine so I tried putting him back to work. He'd be sound, 100% strong and athletic, then he'd pop himself out again making a simple right-hand turn. Again, the DVM chiro was able to fix the lameness in one session but I was nervous at that point and started working very carefully, very briefly, and with lots and lots of warmup and only using our lightest cart. He was fine for two sessions, then ouchy again. Back to the chiro, back to complete basics with no driving. We lunged over cavalettis in sliding side reins, long-lined down the road, all things designed to strengthen and gymnasticize a failing back end. He looked unhappy lunging but he was still moving soundly so like an idiot I pushed him through it, not realizing how his big heart and love of work was hiding pain. The final time he blew himself out walking in a giant right-hand turn across the whole arena and proceeded to become head-bobbingly lame the next day. This time the chiro couldn't fix it and I was terrified I'd ruined my horse. Turns out he's got some sort of muscular problem in his back in front of the pelvis on the right side and all the "therapy" I was doing on him completed the work of tearing or inflaming or straining whatever is wrong in there. The chiro was right, it wasn't his spine, but I was right that it was his back and not some sort of weakness in his stifles that could be resolved by strengthening. We are now five months into a complete layoff and with all the afore-mentioned massage and Reiki he is FINALLY beginning to show some return to normal stride quality. I had no way of knowing from the symptoms he was showing what was truly going on, but nevertheless my actions made the problem much worse than it had to be and has greatly extended the period of time he needs for healing. I'll be lucky if he returns to work by next year, and he may never be the same. I feel sorrow over that every single day.

So not only get the vet's opinion, but keep talking to other vets if what the first one says doesn't feel right to you! Vets are not God and they can be wrong. Go ahead and get x-rays but be aware that a muscular problem will most likely not show up on them. Listen to your instincts and err on the side of taking it easy. What is right for treating locking stifles is completely wrong for treating a stifle injury.
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Leia
 
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Hi again,I really want to urge all of you that have horses with knee or stiffle or any kind of injury to please consult with a vet before exercising. I knew my horse needed exercise , and with the round pen I was working the wrong leg muscles. She didnt want to turn in the other direction....this should have been my wake up call , it was because it was hurting her not because she was confused. This type of "corrective" exercise is for the VET to administer . You want to only strengthen the muscle that is weak ,not all of them or you will make the problem worse. With this type of rehab there are NO left or right turns and NO bending or sharp movements of the hind legs, like changing directions in a round pen. Round pens no matter how large should be avoided, please ask your vet, he will tell you the same , I have contacted 3 of them with a trainer , and a Farrier, and all of them say the same thing. If I continued to try to correct this myself without knowing the muscular anotomy of a horse I would have made things a lot worse. We are not vets , corrections are for the professionals. If your horse is not corrected at an early age then it will live in some sort of cronic pain, and you dont want this for your horse. We dont believe in suppliments in this area , we feel that it is easy to overload a small horse on them causing an overload of toxins. For one example ,potassium is in all grass, and the horse naturally creates potassium when it is exercised, why would you add more in the grain you are giving ? thats just one of many examples of over dosed minerals. All the horse needs is good hay, a little sea salt, and a mineral block. If you dont feed hay because you dont like the way your horses belly looks ..then I feel sorry for your horse. Horses are not ment to eat a bunch of pellets in 15 min , then starve the rest of the day, so they can look pretty for the judge. Sorry about this reality check but I think a good conservative vet will tell you the same thing, good food, water and space, and for corrections always ask a professional. Its costing me 1,000. per month for this rehab, but guess what... its been 3 weeks and she is straight as an arrow, her feet are tracking up nicely at a walk. Horses are an expensive hobby, if you cant afford to do it right then reduce your herd, and stop breeding horses with fixated patellas.
 
Wow, down Krissy!
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You'll note everyone who's posted here is a rehabber, not a breeder. And I for one feed plenty of hay and only a little grain, and that only to get meds into the horse and to fill in the topline when grass hay wasn't enough to accomplish that. Don't know what button we hit, but obviously it's a hot one for you.
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Leia
 
Cheers to you Krissy! And hobbyhorse. I had to fix/change my account here, so the same person.

I do disagree with you Krissy on supplements. Yes you have to know what you are doing and can easily overload minis. I respect your opinion, but when it comes to this subject I firmly believe in the proper balance of nutrition including supplements. Horses need hay, belly or not. But like the mustangs, and I have had many and studied their hoof wear and how they are able to get everything they need by roaming and browsing on various plants, and mineral deposits. If you take a good look at this barren looking and (I think) gawd-forsaken region, you wouldn't be able to believe how fat and healthy these mustangs are. BLM or no. Our domestic friends cannot forage for themselves, so we have to provide it. They can't possibly get all that they need on a diet of hay only, if that hay is from one source and not tested. I use ration balancers, and now joint supplements that are safe and any excess can be excreted. Not all of the miraculously formulated supplements known to all in the horse world are. I have learned from many holistic equine practitioners, chiropracters, and veterinarians. I also practice the right supplements for myself, and my disabilities have greatly improved with the right choice of minerals and vitamins missing in the diet.

Now, yes, vets and people docs make mistakes, definitely. My little guy is confined until I can get him to the vet and get an opinion, oh, and I do realize it takes an MRI or US to help detect liagament and muscle damage. I like hobbyhorse hope to heaven I didn't cause any more tears or damage. Thank you to all for your opinions and experiences. It's meant alot to me and I carefully consider all of it. I will keep positive that he has a simple problem with a simple fix. Thank you all.
 
sorry I went a little crazy on my oppinion... but I see a lot of horrific things here and did in the US too, all for the sake of looks. Even trimming to the point of lameness to get into a class. I know a person that gets her horses high on grain and then expects them to sit in a box 24 X7 , when I say box I mean a 3 foot by 3 foot box. Almost all of her horses are what we call "broken" ...dead eye, no more spirit , and its definatly not the first time I have seen this sort of thing, it happens a lot more than we would all like to believe. I have seen a lot of neglect , abuse etc, and I always seem to be the sucker that ends up flipping the bill , cleaning up the mess. I dont think anyone on this forum is an abuser, but I can guarentee 1 out of 10 knows of one that is. So sorry again for the harshness. Maybe the hay you get there is lacking in nutrition, thankfully ours is not , we have a lot of natural herbs that grow in our area, and chemicals are never allowed, I guess I am lucky. I had my horses bloodwork done to check all levels just to make sure...everything was up to par on hay, a handfull of straw , and 1 hour of pasture grass.I just add corn with cob and leaves ground up in winter to add a layer of fat to keep them warm in -22 weather. I think if you have your horse checked by a vet and with the proper testing , and it shows that they are lacking in something then by all means give it , but so many people just give suppliments without really knowing if the horse needs it or not. why not have the horse checked out first. ( by a vet) has anyone ever had their hay tested to see exactly whats in it? If your doing this then thats great and I agree that extra suppliments are nessessary, but dont just give them blindly. I gave my 25 year old quarterhorse "J FLEX" she needed it , the vet thought so also, and it helped her a lot. So I guess I agree with suppliments , I just want people to be responible about giving them.
 
Thought I'd share my limited experience with stifle issues. I have a little gelding here that I free leased to a friend for about a year. He received great care, some training that he wasn't getting here due to lack of time, and was really loved, but was kept in a relatively small pen most of the time while he was and not being worked with. She started noticing stifle issues with him probably about 9 months in and considered doing surgery, but shortly after that they ran into some financial issues and decided to give the gelding back to me. Now that he's returned to his old lifestyle here where he's in a large dry lot about 50% of the time and on pasture about 50% of the time with his buddies he's had no problems at all. So he was definitely one of the lucky ones who just needed more turnout in his life.
 

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