Spots...?

[MtnShadowsFarm]

This is the butt of my Orion grandson. He was born totally solid bay. I clipped him a few days ago (age 6 weeks) and this is what I found..ONE and ONLY ONE...SPOT!!!! :aktion033: So, I'm HOPING I can consider this an "appy spot" ?????? His dam is solid, but his sire..Brewers Orion Image...of course carries pintaloosa.

Is there any way to tell if from this if it's appy or pinto or...?

 

[Jill]

He's gotta cute butt

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I'm not an expert, but to me, this looks similar to what I can find on my two pinto (with sabino roan) horses. My hunch is that it is a sabino type spot, but again, I am not an authority on pinto and appy markings.

Probably you'll get some additional input from others

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[rabbitsfizz]

Now, come on!!!

You cannot "carry" Pintaloosa, the animal either is, is not, or has characteristics!!!

Those sort of patches are very very common and have nothing to do with Appy or even Pinto (unless you count Sabino in the most minimal as Pinto, which I do not)

I have had patches like that on animals with NO Pinto or Appy background at all.

So, No, I am sorry but, in the absence of striped hooves, spotted genitalia, white Sclera round the eyes, etc, No, those are not Appy spots, not even Minimal.

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

I agree that this doesn't look like appy spots to me, but you just NEVER know with apps. As for the "can't be" without X,Y and Z....there is where I will disagree. My grandfather and uncle raised AQHA and apps up until just a few years ago--for much longer than my 30 years of being around. They had one ALL appy bred mare that was solid black..not a spec of mottling, no white sclera--nothing but solid black. That mare was still appy all the way back and even when later bred to solid QH stallions she threw LOUD babies. It isn't very common, but appy CAN hide. One of my silver bay mares has appy in her bloodline, but not a lot, but her grandsire on the paternal side was a leopard. She has solid hooves, more roaning at her withers and on her face every year, and a half dozen or so little white spots about the size of a nickel along her back. I am not sure if it is from the app or not, but she also has a small amount of mottling on her teats in a small area. That is it. When bred to a stallion with NO appy in him, she threw a filly with spots on her rump about the size of dines to quarters on each side of her hip. Go figure. With apps, the only thing you can EVER say for certain is that NOTHING is ever certain with them.

 

[dunappy]

This is very true, I also raise appaloosas and have MANY solid with NO charactoristics. but are pure appys with great pedigrees.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Sorry, here we go again!!

Without characteristics it does not matter how many generations of Appy you have. No characteristics, NO APPY!!!

So basically if we are talking about Appy the \Pattern as opposed to Appy the Breed. no characteristics, NO Appy.

Does not happen.

The "fly in the ointment" is that some horses, especially minimally characteristiced ones, do not fully develope these characteristics until later in life.

They are there to be seen if you KNOW they are there but otherwise may just look like more white in the eye than usual- often seen in nervous horses anyway, or perhaps more flecking on the rump than you would have expected.

As there is NO test for Appy it would be impossible to make a set in stone rule BUT "Current" thinking is that this rule of simple dominance (and Appy is not actually a straightforward "simple dominant" per se) holds true with Appies.

It is also not beyond possibility that the minimal Appy came from the "solid" QH as they are notorious for getting it wrong

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

Jane, you know I love you, but this is where I really disagree with you. No, there is not a test yet for appy, but genes are genes. With minis things are different, but with a full size, pureblood app, lack of color or characteristics doesn't mean the genes aren't there. If app can't hide, then how could two solids produce an app (or pinto for that matter)? Because the genes ARE there, despite the fact that there aren't visible characteristics. You may not say this IS an appaloosa (in a mini anyway) for a a solid horse carrying the app color genes, but that doesn't mean that horse can't pass those same genes on and have a colored foal even if bred to something with nothing but solid for generations back. How many people have solid horses that a pinto pops out of? It happens! Just because a parent (or both) don't SHOW the color, doesn't mean they aren't hiding the capability of producing color under cover of a solid coat. Genes just don't work like that. Take a Paint horse for example....solids pop up and even though listed as "breeding stock" they are still geneticly a Paint horse. Same with apps. Of course it is different with minis since each color is not it's own breed, but the basic principal of color being able to hide still applies.

-Amy

 

[rabbitsfizz]

You see this is where I just HAVE to disagree!!

I do not believe that two truly solid parents have ever produced an Appy or a Pinto.

I do know very well that two registered as "solid" parents have done this, and I have personally experience of at least one case. BUT the mare has characteristics that did not show when she was originally registered and were not noticed when she was brought permanent- they were ONLY noticed because we were desperately trying to explain the brightly, loudly marked colt at her side!!!

Her dam is Appy, not strongly marked but with actual spots, not minimal.

The mare herself is, when you are looking for it, minimally characteristiced and is getting more characteristics now almost every day.

I am afraid, being slightly cynical by nature, I do wonder how many people do not mention what they do not wish to be known, in order to prove what they wish to prove- the one white coronet, for example on the otherwise solid horse- let's just ignore that, as it is a "normal" white marking, and then we can say that two solids have produced a Pinto!!

I would rather work back from the promise that the rule is probably correct, as I did in the case I am personally involved in.

I could just as easily have claimed the mare minimal flecking over her rump were of no consequence and proclaimed that two solids had produced an (undeniably, loud- SCREAMING!!-) Appy.

But I preferred to see the flecking, to take into account that the mare had an Appy Dam, and time has proven me, and the accepted theory, to be correct.

Show me pictures of two truly solid animals, that have been examined and have NO white anywhere, that have produced a Pinto???

And, since I have heard this so often and it has been disproven so I am afraid I am a little cynical now, (although I do try to keep an open mind) I would also want DNA to prove the ancestry was correct!!!

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*[SIZE=8pt]Sorry*

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[Becky]

I agree with Jane on this one! You just can't get color out of non colored parents! I don't care how minimally marked they are, if they don't show one or more characteristics, be it appy or pinto, they just don't carry the gene, period. It doesn't skip generations. I still hear (and cringe!) 'this horse (solid) has a lot of pinto behind it, so it will produce pinto'. Well, only if one parent is pinto!

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[Meavey]

I agree with Jane on this one! You just can't get color out of non colored parents! I don't care how minimally marked they are, if they don't show one or more characteristics, be it appy or pinto, they just don't carry the gene, period. It doesn't skip generations. I still hear (and cringe!) 'this horse (solid) has a lot of pinto behind it, so it will produce pinto'. Well, only if one parent is pinto!

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I agree with both.

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[fantacsix]

[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]

I know the Appaloosa Registry waits 5 years til you make a horse permanent for one reason, they can change from "non Characteristics" to having them as they get older. The idea is that if they haven't got it by 5 then it probally ain't happening. But Varnish roan is a pattern and it can easily be missed.. You also have to have other characteristics to go along with one. I am not an expert but I know that was the rules say 6 years ago.

 

[Miniv]

This is an interesting thread!

I have a question in regard to PINTO coloring and what big horse breeders call "BLOOD STOCK" ......

With the knowledge that pinto does not skip a generation, why do they have a Pinto Blood Stock registry???

I just don't get that one.

MA

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[fantacsix]

[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]Paints can skip generations in the overo pattern, overo is a recessive gene and can skip. My friend has a minimal white overo out of two Breeding stock (solid paints) The Tobiano gene is the gene that if you have a solid foal it doesn't carry the gene. (unless you have an overo gene hiding in there somewhere.)

 

[Magic]

I've got a four year old black mare out of an minimally marked appy mare (that usually throws loud foals even by non-appy sires) and by a near-leopard stallion, who has had NO appy signs at all to speak of, who is just now getting a lot of white hairs on her rump and flanks. I've had other horses do the same, wait until they are three or four to get any appy coloring.

It's hard to say-- appaloosas are interesting and unpredictable to say the least!-- but I think that since this colt is just a suckling, he could very well be coloring out "appy". You'll just have to wait and see!

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

Then how did a solid black mare come out of a long line of apps and not a bit of mottling, flecking, sclera or anything, bred and raised by my grandfather produce app when bred to non apps? Maybelline was bred to a TB stud and STILL threw app, but by golly she didn't have a single sign of her long app heritage showing. She did indeed lose her registration status--no visuals. There are sometimes things that go deeper than we can SEE because she sure threw it every time.

In the case of my mare, she has flecking on her face, withers and all along her back here and there. That is apparently minimal app markings as her sire must have had somewhere in there because she sure as heck threw a silver bay filly with snowflakes by a solid EK son. Okay, so minimal, but possible signs to explain this one.

As for pinto, how do you know when a blaze or a sock is a "solid" mark or a sign of pinto? Are ALL socks and blazes signs of pinto then? How do you know if you are breeding a solid mare with socks or a minimal pinto? I think there are too many questionables with genes to say for sure that something IS or IS NOT possible. I KNOW about the one black app mare, so I believe that genes go deeper than we can always grasp visually.

edited to add: another thing I was thinking about--there are multiple genes that produce what we call pinto--yes? overo, tobiano, sabino and other mixes....some are recessive some are dominant--yes? Then why do people refuse to accept the possibility that there are different genes responsible for different app patterns? If we can't yet identify the genes, then how in the heehaw can we sit here and say that one or another can't "hide" like overo?

-Amy

 

[HGFarm]

If the Appies with the genes but no color are not Appy, then why would ApHC and POA allow them to be papered and used for breeding stock and other things? They are Appy- they have the genes. They would not be allowed to be QH or Thoroughbred or anything else because their bloodlines state they are Appaloosa bred. And yes, they make great breeding stock because they can certainly produce LOUD babies.

After raising Appies for over 30 years exclusively, I must agree with Amy here. I have seen solid horses produce Appies and I have seen MANY registered QH's produce LOUD pintos.

Also, if it can hide and crop out later, why does the pinto registry not allow ANY appy breeding within at least five generations when registering a horse as pinto?

 

[Bluerocket]

ok - just have to throw my hat in the ring here.

I don't know about your horse -- I can tell you this.

My husband has a grey gelding - he is 90% white now -- dark knees is most of the color. He is 6 years old. We have owned him for 3 years now.

When we first got him - he was mostly all white then (has not grayed out much since then) -- He had no appaloosa characteristics at all - not mottling nothing.

Since then he has acquired mottling around eyes, on the nose on the genitals -- everywhere-- AND he now has acquire (over the past year) a few BROWN SPOTS -- one on his face and a few (maybe 4 all total) on his body. He was WHITE in those places.

So--- don't know what to tell you --- this guy's mom was solid black and his sire was an appaloosa.

JJay

 

[rabbitsfizz]

If the sire was an Appy that is your answer, surely??

At the moment ALL white markings are thought to be caused by Pinto in minimal- I'm sorry but I am fading fast and need my bed so if you want clarification of this please take this to

http://www.equinecolor.com/contact.html

and raise the question there.

Appy does not skip generations, I KNOW the Appy people are desperate to prove it does, but, even were the case of your fathers horse to be proven, one anomaly does NOT prove or disprove a theory- it could just be that, a simple anomaly with no bearing on the actual theory at all.

As it is I prefer to believe that, had you actually wished to find something that proved she was Appy characteristiced, as I did with the mare I have personal experience of, you probably would have found it.

Maybe not, I am willing to concede, but more than likely so.

"Solid" Paint and Pinto horses merely have less white than is deemed to be "pinto" markings and are not necessarily "solid" at all- surely we all know this by now?? It is a very, very basic fact.

Solid merely means not immediately visually Pinto

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Solid can mean a Black horse with four white socks and a blaze.

The Pinto people really do need to work out what is solid and what is not.

Until they, and the Appy people begin to at least make an effort there is not much point in giving credence to the patterns or to the term "solid"

I am sorry if this sounds a bit "scratchy" it is not meant to be so, I have dispensed with the niceties merely because I am too tired to put them in.

Please fill in a few platitudes and smiles, and even a nod and a wink here and there to suggest goodwill and humour

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: :bgrin

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

Ya know, there are websites that say each of us are right and quite a few of each out there. The fact of the matter remains that neither side of this issue is going to convince the other to think differently. I used a mare as an example because I know the situation well and have seen it first hand. There are lots of others out there and this wasn't a freak thing. Since I don't have personal experience with others I can not say "this is true beyond all doubt". If app breeders were desperate to prove their NC stock was color producing, you'd think they would do it to sell to other people instead of investing it back into their breeding program....I mean really. I don't think the people that have invested their lives work in breeding apps or paints (or pintos) are going to change their minds just because someone says that the color crosses they see working aren't really so. They are going to do what they have seen work and roll with it. Anyway, until we have all of the genes mapped out and labeled this is all just a matter of opinion..and we all know how that goes.

-Amy

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Amy you are absolutely right.

I can say "current thinking is..." and you can say "I know of a...." until we are blue in the face, it will change nothing.

The ONLY thing that bothers me, really, is when I see people advertising horses as "Appy bred" or "Pinto bred" and the animal is, quite obviously, NOT Appy or Pinto.

Some unscrupulous or even misguided people do do this sort of thing, we have all seen instances of it, and, no doubt smiled.

It is not a laughing matter if you buy this animal, knowing nothing of pattern and colour, in the belief that it will breed you loud patterns.

That, really, is my only concern in these matters- that people are deluding themselves or, sometimes, prospective buyers.

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