Rowdy?

[ohmt]

AnnaC-There are many pinto falabellas. I rarely see any that aren't anything but tobiano or splash, but I suppose it might be worth testing your boy just in case.

LOVE Rowdy-beautiful horse who sired beautiful foals. I believe when AMHA did a story on him in one of the World magazines they had his lineage linked to Audrey Barrett with a lot of pictures. I think the link comes from Oracle? This is all just coming from my memory which is not that great sometimes!

 

[mizbeth]

Hi

Jane has a photo of Rowdy and his sire. It is an old one and hard to see. She was always supposed to scan and send it, but never did. The photo is a rear shot of him so you cannot see if he has color or not, but appears either black or bay. I do not imagine it would scan well enough to see.

It is my understanding that Mr Allman bred Rowdy - not sure Vern Brewer ever owned him but he did have some daughters/sons of his to begin his breeding program with. Juno Norman had him and bred many horses by Rowdy and he was sold then in their dispersal sale to Bob and Sandy Erwin NFC - thus the numerous NFC Rowdy horses. I do not believe Rowdy was a part of Audreys breeding program although many of his ancestors were.

I am pulling this information from memory as six or so years ago I did a lot of research on Rowdy and only a few emails I got, did I keep.

Jenny - Tony - Lewella knows alot about Rowdy. Wished one of them would come on and give us some history on him. I love hearing about him and the different opinions from those who knew him and his circumstances. I was going to name my farm Rowdy Acres when I first got into miniature horses but heard someone else had the name. Also "nearly bought" NFC Rowdys Standing Ovation when I first got into miniature horses, but could not see paying as much for a horse and you would a house So passed on him. He is a very striking horse.

 

[AshleyNicole]

Al Glass and Joe Spino who were the trainer/ manager at NFC, also know a lot about Rowdy as well as many of the horses at NFC. We bought several horses from them this past year and they gave us a brochure from NFC with Rowdy in it and some information about him and his offspring. Wish I knew as much as they do about miniature history, their number and e-mail is on their website, I bet they wouldn't mind helping you out. It was really amazing to see the actual photos of all of the legendary horses that they worked with. We have the link to their web-site on our links page.

 

[~Amanda~]

AnnaC-There are many pinto falabellas. I rarely see any that aren't anything but tobiano or splash, but I suppose it might be worth testing your boy just in case.

LOVE Rowdy-beautiful horse who sired beautiful foals. I believe when AMHA did a story on him in one of the World magazines they had his lineage linked to Audrey Barrett with a lot of pictures. I think the link comes from Oracle? This is all just coming from my memory which is not that great sometimes!

Is there a place to look up which magazine the story was in? I'd love to read it. I've heard about Rowdy of course, but I'd love to get more details.

 

[~Lisa~]

Lisa

My info on Rowdy came from Audrey Barrett herself - she was getting up there in years when we had a few of our conversations, but she seemed sharp as a tack -

Stac

Stacy I was not doubting you at all please I hope you didnt take it that way when you saw it in type..

Iknew he was the dreaded P word

but just had no idea about Audrey... she was such a huge huge influence on the breed

 

[Tony]

There is a lot of misinformation on Rowdy and quite a bit on this thread. Rowdy was bred by Mr. Allman and bought by Jno. W. Norman, Lazy N Stables, Winters, Texas, as a colt. He is a son of Kewpie's Sun who goes back to Kewpie Doll's Oracle which is an ancestor of much of Audrey Barret's breeding. Vern Brewer never owned Rowdy, but was given a Rowdy son, Rowdy's Charm, also bred by Mr. Norman. Charm was later sold and was National Grand Chamkpion later. Vern took care of the dispersal of Mr. Norman's horses and Rowdy sold in the sale, which I attended many years ago. He sold for $7,500 to Bob & Sandy Erwin of NFC Farms at that sale and died some years later on their place. When I was a child Vern was trainer for Mr. Norman and years later when Vern saw the Rowdy offspring he was impressed and Mr. Norman gave him three of his offspring and Vern bought three more - a total of six Rowdy sons and daughters. I bought a full sister, according to Mr. Norman, and although Rowdy's pedigree is unknown as far as the registry, he gave me a note testifying that he was out of Allman's Baby Doll and by Kewpie's Sun. I gave the note to AMHA, but because it could not be verified, the information was never accepted into the studbook.

 

[mizbeth]

Hi

On the registration papers of Little America Rocky Rowdy (Rowdy son by the mare you bought), had in handwritten letters "Allmans Baby Doll". Not sure if you, Tony wrote that there, or if AMHA did. I still have the old gentelmen - he is a grand horse and has produced me some gorgeous daughters/sons, his grandget are awesome. He is a perfect example of what pedigree - breeding of miniature horse is all about, he definately out produces himself and puts that long hooky shetland neck on his foals.

Beth

 

[MountainMeadows]

Hi Tony

Thank you for the clarification - I know that Audrey was getting up in years when we spoke and she had a lot of her facts straight, but perhaps was a bit foggy about others - it really doesn't matter tho - Rowdy was a beautiful stallion, sired some incredible foals and his lineage will continue thru miniature horses for generations to come -- sad tho, that back in the old days, the "P" word was considered heinous and all those "P" pedigrees were trashed - wouldn't it be interesting to find out where a lot of the bloodlines of todays winning miniature horses really came from?

Stac

 

[Sue_C.]

wouldn't it be interesting to find out where a lot of the bloodlines of todays winning miniature horses really came from?

I generally assume that if it says "unknown" in most cases, it was shetland or shetland/welsh. When I look at the heads and necks of many of the minis I definately see much more of a Welsh influence than I do Shetland. I personally do not see todays Shetland head improving the minis at all. At least, not the shetties with hackney in them...so I suppose it would be the "modern" influence I wouldn't want, more than anything; personally do not want to see the high-knee action either. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but not in a mini. If I want to see or own a hackney, I will buy or watch one...it is enough that the shetlands are trying to be mini hackneys.

 

[~Lisa~]

it is enough that the shetlands are trying to be mini hackneys.

Many are not trying they truly are LOL

I do agree that logic would state the Shetland didnt evolve as it has without adding new and different breeds and blood despite what papers say no different then in the minis..

 

[Sue_C.]

I do agree that logic would state the Shetland didnt evolve as it has without adding new and different breeds and blood despite what papers say no different then in the minis

EXACTLY! The Shetlands are not like the Morgan, where they go back to ONE forebearer...they are like all other breeds, including the Arabian; a bit of this, a bit of that, and VERY obviously a lot of "out behind the barn" breeding even after they became a "pure-bred".

 

[ohmt]

EXACTLY! The Shetlands are not like the Morgan, where they go back to ONE forebearer...they are like all other breeds, including the Arabian; a bit of this, a bit of that, and VERY obviously a lot of "out behind the barn" breeding even after they became a "pure-bred".

ALL breeds come from mixing and matching; morgans, shetlands, arabians, ALL OF THEM. Breeds were created by us. And where would any of them be without it? Hackneys have already had a much bigger influence on minis than most people think. I see a lot of minis who make me think of a hackney right on the spot and it's usually the head. I love what the shetlands are doing to the minis. They are adding refinement, better length of neck, and they're helping create a more athletic mini. They may not be helping the heads of the minis, but their good points far outweigh that small con. Also, stop and think about what the influx of the shetland/mini crosses will do to the mini gene pool as far as dwarfism? I think it's going to really help diminish carriers. Just a thought

NOW, back to Rowdy...

 

[Sue_C.]

Also, stop and think about what the influx of the shetland/mini crosses will do to the mini gene pool as far as dwarfism? I think it's going to really help diminish carriers. Just a thought

That is something that perplexes me...a lot. IF the mini is "nothing other than a small shetland"...with all that shetland blood...with supposidly no dwarfism in the shetland "breed"...where did it come from? You cannot just lie that on the shoulders of in-breeding and too much line breeding,(although I abhor in-breeding..see no use for it anymore AT ALL) as MANY breeds began that way, and it isn't a problem with them.

 

[skylineminis]

Hi

Jane has a photo of Rowdy and his sire. It is an old one and hard to see. She was always supposed to scan and send it, but never did.

As far as I know, Jane Macon has the only photo of Allmans Baby Doll and she was a solid bay or black mare. I'm almost sure his sire was a black/white pinto, like "Oracle" was.

I had a mare that was Kewpie bred with Rowdy in her bloodline and I taced the Kewpie's Oracle bloodline back to 1840. According to what I read about the Shetlands being shipped to the U.S., there were 4 or 6 shetlands exported to Canada in 1840 or so. It did say that any silver pony or miniataure will trace back to a pony named "Jeff". He was the first silver ever documented to arrive in the Canada/U.S. history. Can I prove this? No, but that is the information I gathered in my research. It took me several days to go back that far using the Shetland/AMHR stud book in the format they have.

Just thought I'd share this information.

The mare I had also had Gold Melody Boy also but I never followed him back to the beginning.

 

[Minimor]

The Shetlands are not like the Morgan, where they go back to ONE forebearer...they are like all other breeds, including the Arabian; a bit of this, a bit of that, and VERY obviously a lot of "out behind the barn" breeding even after they became a "pure-bred".

sorry to say that there was some...okay, a lot...of "out behind the barn" breeding in Morgans too! For a period of time the registry was open, allowing saddlebred (for one) to be added into the breed. But, even after the registry closed, there was still some funny stuff going on at some breeding farms. A couple breeders got caught in recent years, but there are others who didn't...
As for the dwarfism--from what I understand from breeders who have been in the small equine for awhile...dwarfism did exist in the Shetlands at some point. However, the dwarfism gene gives traits that are not desirable in the shetlands, and the dwarfs were culled. Unfortunately some of those dwarves were used in Miniature breeding programs, making the dwarf gene more firmly entrenched in the Minis. There are others who could explain that much better than I can!!

 

[Sue_C.]

sorry to say that there was some...okay, a lot...of "out behind the barn" breeding in Morgans too! For a period of time the registry was open, allowing saddlebred (for one) to be added into the breed. But, even after the registry closed, there was still some funny stuff going on at some breeding farms. A couple breeders got caught in recent years, but there are others who didn't...
As for the dwarfism--from what I understand from breeders who have been in the small equine for awhile...dwarfism did exist in the Shetlands at some point. However, the dwarfism gene gives traits that are not desirable in the shetlands, and the dwarfs were culled. Unfortunately some of those dwarves were used in Miniature breeding programs, making the dwarf gene more firmly entrenched in the Minis. There are others who could explain that much better than I can!!

Yes, even in the Morgan breed there were those who wanted a Saddlebred or Hackney type of look, so instead of simply changing thier breed choice, they attempted (as like what is happening now, IMO) to change their original breed choice. But, they too, as the Shetlands have also had to do, have "types" within thier breed, and there is still linages that remain PURE to the original Morgan with no break.

Why IS IT, that those who like the high-gaited horses, cannot just stick with the horse and ponu breeds that already HAVE IT??

As for the dwarfism "thing"...of COURSE the gene had to come from the Shetlands and other breeds, it is pure nonsense to think it just suddenly appeared out of thin air in the miniature "breed". I have to shake my head at those who swear there was never-ever any sign of it in the Shetland breed. I have no doubt in my mind it was the dwarf-type shetlands that were used to manufacture the mini breed at the onset, at more than one breeding farm back in the day.

 

[Mominis]

Yes, even in the Morgan breed there were those who wanted a Saddlebred or Hankney type of look, so instead of simply changing thier breed choice, they attempted (as like what is happening now, IMO) to change their original breed choice. But, they too, as the Shetlands have also had to do, have "types" within thier breed, and there is still linages that remain PURE to the original Morgan with no break.

Why IS IT, that those who like the high-gaited horses, cannot just stick with the horse and ponu breeds that already HAVE IT??

As for the dwarfism "thing"...of COURSE the gene had to come from the Shetlands and other breeds, it is pure nonsense to think it just suddenly appeared out of thin air in the miniature "breed". I have to shake my head at those who swear there was never-ever any sign of it in the Shetland breed. I have no doubt in my mind it was the dwarf-type shetlands that were used to manufacture the mini breed at the onset, at more than one breeding farm back in the day.

AMEN, sister!

 

[Minimor]

I haven’t heard anyone say that Shetlands never-ever had the dwarf gene. I haven’t talked to “everybody” but those I have talked with said the gene was in the breed at one time. I would suspect that the gene is pretty much gone from the Shetlands now though, at least from the American Shetlands. If someone did have a dwarf crop up in their Shetland breeding program now I imagine they would cull the ponies that created that dwarf—let’s be honest, no one really wants to raise ASPC ponies that show dwarf traits, that simply isn’t going to further anyone’s ASPC breeding program in any way!! In Minis…well, there is less inclination to cull in the Minis. Good breeders won’t deliberately breed for dwarfism, but many still do not cull their known dwarf producers.

I don’t think it’s a bad thing for people to want to add more action into Minis, just as I don’t think it is wrong to be breeding Minis to have longer legs, slimmer bodies and longer necks. If Minis are supposed to look like full size horses in Miniature, then these improvements need to happen. If no one bred for any improvements, Minis would always be the short legged, heavy bodied, choppy moving little pit ponies they (in most cases) started out as. If they didn’t change from that I would guess they would have continued to be popular as novelty animals, but wouldn’t be taken seriously in the equine world in general. Without the changes there have been in the breed in the past 20 or even 10 years I would bet that there would be a lot of people that wouldn’t have gotten into Miniatures.

Actually some of those supposedly “pure” lines of Morgans are not quite up to scratch when it comes to purity either. It isn’t just the show type ones that had something non-Morgan added into them. I’m not saying it was deliberate in every case, sometimes the band of purebred Morgans ran out on the same pasture as some other band of horses, and sometimes the wrong stallion got to the wrong breed of mare and suddenly that oh-so-pure line had some draft horse or whatever added into it.

To get back to Rowdy—where did his frame gene come from? From everything I’ve been told, the original Shetlands did not carry the frame gene. I know people have asked this question before but I don’t recall anyone getting a definite answer from anyone. So, many old lines of Shetlands wouldn’t have had the frame gene to pass on—I don’t think the island Shetlands have frame even now? Don’t know—I haven’t taken a lot of interest in the island Shetlands, the Falabellas or the frame gene.

 

[Sue_C.]

I dont think its a bad thing for people to want to add more action into Minis, just as I dont think it is wrong to be breeding Minis to have longer legs, slimmer bodies and longer necks. If Minis are supposed to look like full size horses in Miniature, then these improvements need to happen

But where does it say that to "improve" the miniature...(which I think is just fine thank you...that's why I chose the breed rather than a Shetland, Shackney or Hackney pony)...you "want to add more action"?? There are actually very few breeds that have naturally high action, and we have pretty much already mentioned them.

What is WRONG with a mini, looking like a MINI?? Look at many of todays miniatures, what is it you don't care for? I see LOTS nice long legged, well-proportioned horses. I see beautiful hooky necks and dainty little faces. I figure if they don't look like what you want...then go buy a pony of the breed that DOES.

To get back to Rowdy—where did his frame gene come from? From everything I’ve been told, the original Shetlands did not carry the frame gene. I know people have asked this question before but I don’t recall anyone getting a definite answer from anyone. So, many old lines of Shetlands wouldn’t have had the frame gene to pass on—I don’t think the island Shetlands have frame even now? Don’t know—I haven’t taken a lot of interest in the island Shetlands, the Falabellas or the frame gene.

It was probably introduced the same way the high-action was in other lines...before it was an admitted act.

 

[ohmt]

SueC-miniature horses are a height breed, unlike others. That means they have a lot of different ancestry and that is why there are SO many different types of minis. The reason you see the nice hooky necks and dainty heads are because breeders have incorporated different breeds and downsized. My great grandparents went out and bought backyard ponies-they were absolutely gorgeous but had zero pedigree and who knows what sort of breeding they had behind them and those horses started there miniature horse program. I absolutely loved what they did. They chose backyard ponies with qualities that they liked and downsized creating some truly stunning miniature horses. There are World Grand Champions with their breeding who can verify that.

The great thing about minis is that you CAN take those high action horses and try to downsize to be able to call the horse a miniature. You can get a drafty type, quarter type, arabian type, etc. It's all up to the breeder. YOU can breed whatever you want and others can breed whatever they want. THe minis have it all. There really should be no argument about whether or not people should breed high action into the minis. If the horse is conformationally sound and meets the miniature horse height requirements, why not?