Question on conformation for prospective broodmares

[Tango]

After reading about the foal losses so far this spring, I thought I would ask some questions about the conformation of prospective broodmares. I am trying to get a clearer prospective here in case I should decide to breed again in the future and am hoping this topic will also be helpful to many others.

(My heart goes out to all of you that have lost foals this spring.)

Can you please tell us what conformation your best broodmares have - those mares that have not had any difficulty in foaling....

1. Do they have longer backs or shorter backs?

2. Do they have long hips with flat croups or short hips with rounded croups?

3. Do they have a wide stance in the back legs or a narrow or possibly cow hocked stance in the back legs?

I realize that some of the traits listed are not ideal and should not be sought out for future breeding stock, but can anyone easily pick out a future broodmare that can foal easily based on her conformation?

I guess the bottom line question is - does "ideal" conformation necessarily correlate to ease of foaling?

 

[Reble]

Good topic, I wish we did know the answers.

I think proper feeding and minerals helps with less birthing problems.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I'll bite!

First I'll say--I REALLY want to know about, and SEE, the dam, and if possible, further-back maternal relatives, of a mare.

Answers to questions:

1. Back length has varied,but never to any serious degree. I don't mind a SLIGHTLY longer back, but have found that OVERALL BALANCE seems of prime importance.

2. NO flat croups, BUT, long, deep hips. NO 'steep' croups, either. Again, overall balance and moderation of features.

3. I DON'T like really wide stances behind, so simply haven't owned those. Neither do I like cow hocks, so haven't used mares with that-though MILD cow hocks don't bother me much. My feeling is, you want to 'start with' good BASICALLY CORRECT conformation in ANY breeding stock---kind of "JOB ONE"!

Margo

 

[MiLo Minis]

Their "outside" conformation doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. It is how they are put together inside that counts and that can have nothing to do with bone structure. Some horses just don't have a roomy uterus which can cause problems when it is time for the foal to turn. I knew a mare once that essentially had NO uterus. She could not hold a foal and when they checked her out they discovered - it almost ended where it began! She was a beautiful mare conformationally and was a Champion halter horse many times over.

If you are buying a maiden mare with the intent to breed you are wise to invest in a veterinary check for breeding soundness.

 

[Magic]

Their "outside" conformation doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. It is how they are put together inside that counts and that can have nothing to do with bone structure. Some horses just don't have a roomy uterus which can cause problems when it is time for the foal to turn. I knew a mare once that essentially had NO uterus. She could not hold a foal and when they checked her out they discovered - it almost ended where it began! She was a beautiful mare conformationally and was a Champion halter horse many times over.
If you are buying a maiden mare with the intent to breed you are wise to invest in a veterinary check for breeding soundness.

Excellent post!

I also think that a "good foaler" will generally beget "good foalers". Barring any odd defects like the mare mentioned above, a fertile mare that foals rather easily is, IMO, most likely to produce fillies that do the same. If a mare has to be on Regumate and/or is a difficult mare to get and keep in foal, needs vet assistance to do so, and/or has trouble giving birth, any foals she has may very well have the same or similar problems.

My mares are all good foalers (None of my mares have ever had Regumate), and we rarely lose pre-term foals. We've not lost a full-term foal yet (knock on wood and pray!) If I ever have a mare that has trouble conceiving, carrying a foal, or giving birth, I would sell her as a pet or a not-to-be-bred show horse. Why perpetuate breeding problems?

That said, there are also just freak problems that can happen to any horse, like a foal positioned badly, twisted umbilical cord, etc. The only thing that one can do for that is to make every effort to be present for each foaling, and hopefully have a great vet that can get to you fast.

My condolences also go out to all who have lost foals this year, whether full term or aborted early. It hurts to lose these babies that we have planned for and waited so long to have arrive.

 

[MiLo Minis]

I also think that a "good foaler" will generally beget "good foalers".

I would also tend to agree with this. And to carry it further - good mothers make good mothers. I had a mare that would not take her foal the first time round. I thought we might have a dummy foal or just that she was maiden and really wasn't mature enough even though she was 4 when she foaled. We gave her a second chance and she behaved the same way with the second foal, attacking it, not letting it nurse. With both foals we worked diligently to keep the foal alive having to tie the mare and hobble her to allow the foal to nurse. She was a very lackadaisical mother out in the pasture allowing her foal to wander farther than any other mare would. The fall following her second foal we sold her as a pet. I had explained the mare's attitude to the people that bought her one filly and got a call from them when they bred her - she was exactly the same.

The horse in my above post with the neglible uterus was a full size horse but I am sure that the same situation could easily occur in Minis.

 

[~Lisa~]

I do not know if I agree with the good mothers make good mothers. I think a lot of it depends on how you keep your horses. Many keep their mares in a herd situation in which case I think a not so good mother can get away with it a bit more and the foals can still learn about mothering as they are growing up with new foals hitting the ground.I think that can help the cycle being broken?

 

[MiLo Minis]

I do not know if I agree with the good mothers make good mothers. I think a lot of it depends on how you keep your horses. Many keep their mares in a herd situation in which case I think a not so good mother can get away with it a bit more and the foals can still learn about mothering as they are growing up with new foals hitting the ground.I think that can help the cycle being broken?

Of course I don't really know but I know my mare and foal were kept in a herd situation both here and on the farm that the filly went to and she grew up very much like her mother.

 

[~Amanda~]

This is a very interesting topic.

I hadn't really thought about broodmare breeding conformation from the inside. You always hear about the length of backs, the hips, and if the 'opening' is tipped, but rarely worrying about how the mare is built from the inside.

Just out of curiosity, if you were looking at a mare as a prospective broodmare, what kind of tests/exams would you ask the vet to look for?

 

[End Level Farms]

For the most part I like a balanced overall conformation. As correct as possible.

I do have one mare who is older. She is 18 almost 19 years old. She is slightly longer in the back than my Ideal would be. However my stallion is nice and short backed so the back did not occur in the foal.

This is Honey. And yes the white does make it appear even longer than it is.

The resulting foal.

 

[Minimor]

The only mare that we've had foaling problems from was a very short bodied mare. I felt at the time--and still do--that her short body gave her less room to carry that colt and have him get turned and positioned properly. She wasn't a small mare and had foals previously with no problems, but this was a bigger colt that she carried longer than I would have liked.

I have to say that I prefer my mares to be just a little bit longer in the body--not too long, but a little longer as opposed to very short bodied. I don't want a narrow hipped build--I don't want them to have a rear end that is two ax handles wide, but I do want them wide enough to have room for a foal to pass easily. Hip length...long hip, because that is just good conformation...level or a bit rounded...not chopped off. By level hip I mean level, not a short, ski jump conformation where the dock of the tail is the highest point of the croup...which is the sort of croup that some owners in certain breeds tend to call "level"--that kind of conformation generally goes with a short hip and a tipped vulva, which isn't good broodmare conformation IMO. Stance--correct stance, I don't want wide set hind legs, and I don't want a lot of cowhock conformation--I always want correct conformation!

 

[disneyhorse]

I personally think that conformation and poor foaling ability is NOT always related. I think in most cases, it's unfortunate luck. How many poorly conformed horses have you seen that keep throwing hideous babies? Too bad it's not related

At any rate, ANY horse can suffer a terrible dystocia. There was a mare in my barn a couple years ago, it was an 18 hand Percheron mare bred to an Andalusian stallion. You'd think that delivering a baby that would be smaller than the mare would lessen the risk but no, both mare and foal did not survive.

In breeding, I would want BALANCED, SOUND conformation of the mare because I would want to get a baby with balanced, sound conformation. There are risks with ANY breeding, so the resulting foal better be worth the risk.

Andrea

 

[Magic]

In breeding, I would want BALANCED, SOUND conformation of the mare because I would want to get a baby with balanced, sound conformation. There are risks with ANY breeding, so the resulting foal better be worth the risk.
Andrea

This is SO true!

 

[midnight star stables]

Great posts Lori and Andrea!

 

[ThreeCFarm]

Their "outside" conformation doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. It is how they are put together inside that counts and that can have nothing to do with bone structure. Some horses just don't have a roomy uterus which can cause problems when it is time for the foal to turn. I knew a mare once that essentially had NO uterus. She could not hold a foal and when they checked her out they discovered - it almost ended where it began! She was a beautiful mare conformationally and was a Champion halter horse many times over.
If you are buying a maiden mare with the intent to breed you are wise to invest in a veterinary check for breeding soundness.

You are SO right, Lori. Before reading this, I posted essentially the same thing, though not as well written, on another thread.

 

[Miniv]

The only mare that we've had foaling problems from was a very short bodied mare. I felt at the time--and still do--that her short body gave her less room to carry that colt and have him get turned and positioned properly. She wasn't a small mare and had foals previously with no problems, but this was a bigger colt that she carried longer than I would have liked.
I have to say that I prefer my mares to be just a little bit longer in the body--not too long, but a little longer as opposed to very short bodied. I don't want a narrow hipped build--I don't want them to have a rear end that is two ax handles wide, but I do want them wide enough to have room for a foal to pass easily. Hip length...long hip, because that is just good conformation...level or a bit rounded...not chopped off. By level hip I mean level, not a short, ski jump conformation where the dock of the tail is the highest point of the croup...which is the sort of croup that some owners in certain breeds tend to call "level"--that kind of conformation generally goes with a short hip and a tipped vulva, which isn't good broodmare conformation IMO. Stance--correct stance, I don't want wide set hind legs, and I don't want a lot of cowhock conformation--I always want correct conformation!

I AGREE.

The two short backed mares we've owned both had problems. They are pretty in the show arena but it's not so pretty when they have distocias.....

We don't breed teenies any more, but when we did, we learned very quickly that the height wasn't necessarily the problem. Instead, we looked for the deep hip and wider pelvis -- PLUS the length of her back.

 

[Tango]

This has been a very informative thread. Thanks for all the replys.

I think someone asked a few posts back on this thread if there were specific exams a vet does to determine whether or not a mare will foal easily. How easy are these exams to do on a mini? Can the vet actually determine the size of the pelvic opening and the size of the uterus? Is the exam done by ultra sound or internal palpation?

 

[sdmini]

When minis first started out as registered breed most of the mares looked a lot different than today's type. They were heavier boned, longer backed and deeper bodied, they also had virtually no foaling problems. So I do think to an extent what we are shaping them to be is in direct correlation to the increased foaling problems we are seeing.