question for dog breeders

[liltnt]

I have been looking for a puppy... Way back when... doxies only came in two colors. blk and tan and red.... where did all thr new colors come from? Also the yorkies they were in several colors but they have introduced the parti colors with a lot of white... What is with that? now I know, that in order to get the brindle in pugs there is a mix of boston terrier bred in there. Is this all part of the designer dog? I am asking because I really would like to know. Thanks any one that can respond...

 

[Lizzie]

All breeds have allowed and desirable colours. When you find anyone advertising something not seen before, then it is most usually a mix or has a mix of something else in its background. You can see allowed colours for Daschunds, here...

http://www.akc.org/breeds/dachshund/

For Yorkies, here..

http://www.akc.org/breeds/yorkshire_terrier/index.cfm

Irresponsible breeders, will breed anything for a $ and often a lot of $s. NO responsible breeder, produces mixed breeds. NO responsible breeder, breeds extra small or extra large, dogs of a given breed, or charges more for 'rare' colours. They are only in it for the money. And that's a fact.

Here's a little something I wrote a while ago, when a lady wrote to me, asking why mixed breeds (designer dogs) can't be a 'breed'.

One young lady, new to the breeding of animals, asked me what the difference is, between purebred and crossbred and why can't a crossbred dog or horse, be a new breed.

I was trying to think of an example and maybe came up with something which might help explain. This has nothing to do with animals, but is used purely as an example.

Supposing Mr. Smith, takes two plates with patterns. They should be of different sizes. One can be a dinner plate and one a side plate. One plate will be oven-safe and the other, fine bone china. He has an idea. He breaks both in half.

Now, he takes one half of each and sticks them together along the broken edge, with crazy glue. This might be a little difficult, since the two broken edges, will probably not fit very well together. Along the glued edge, there could even be a few holes. According to how the pieces fitted together, his new plate might look a little more like one or the other, or neither. But lets see what we have.

Firstly, we obviously have a plate with two different patterns and looks. The patterns we now have on our new glued plate, does not really look particularly good. We might not even recognise it, as one pattern or the other. It might look pretty, but possibly not. We obviously cannot put this plate in the oven, since the other half will break. The two halves, were just never meant to be together. Each was formed originally, and with much careful thought and considerations, for two completely different characteristics and uses.

Now lets turn the plate over. Almost all dinner/tea services, have a maker's mark or stamp. We will notice on Mr. Smith's new plate, that it has a bit of one maker's mark and a bit of the other. Lets face it, no respectable registry will register his new design. So this being the case, he will not be able to register the new plate, since it shows two completely different patterns and maker's mark/stamps. And yes, most china patterns across the world, are registered.

If he is trying to sell this new plate, how will he advise it? Should he call it by pattern one, or the pattern on the other half? Can he honestly sell it as being the product of one maker or another? No. He will have to make up a catchy name. He decides to call his new plate, "Royal Moneymaker". Can he register it, within any of the china registries? Of course not. So what does this leave him. He can register the new pattern, within an 'off' registry. Or of course, he can make a new registry on his kitchen table, for his new glued-together plate. This registry of course and all other off registries, will be open to anyone who glues two completely different types of plates together. These registries will not care, that two plates of different types have been glued together. They will not care if the plate is neither one thing or the other. They are just happy to collect the money for each registration certificate issued. They also hope of course, that many others who have purchased Mr. Smith's 'iffy' plates, will register those. It's all about the money.

How shall he advertise his new Royal Moneymaker designer plates? He can only hope to sell to those who have no idea what a properly made plate should look like, or that they are being conned. He could, if he were dishonest, advertise his new design widely and hope that some will think it rare or desirable. Some, who have not done their homework on china in general, might even believe this is a true design, and pay big money for it. Others will walk away, shaking their heads that anyone is even charging for such a plate. After all, one can find broken, glued together or chipped plates, in any garage sale or thrift shop for a very small price or even free. But our Mr. Smith, assures his buyers, that when two half plates of different kinds are glued together, they are stronger. Again, some will believe him.

What about the frivolous guarantee, given by the maker of these new plates? Unless extensive testing has been done, and approved by the appropriate authorities, guarantees are absolutely worthless. There is no doubt, that some of the new buyers, will find their rare and new expensive Royal Moneymaker plates, will not hold up for very long.

So what does this tell us?

Firstly, it tells us that Mr. Smith and his f1 designer plates, is purely out to part the unknowledgeable of the facts, from their money. An f1 (short for Fillial 1), is that which is produced, when putting together, something of two distinctly different types. It tells us that no responsible registry will add Mr. Smith's new design to their listings. It has no history of reliable reproduction, no real maker's mark/stamp of note and is something dreamed up by someone wishing to make money from those who don't know better.

It takes years to form certain characteriscis, which reproduce reliably and many generations of trial and error. It takes the willingness to discard any from the pool, which don't meet the standard, incredibly careful record-keeping and more time and money, than most of us have. f1 types of anything, will never reproduce reliably.

It tells us, that some of the time, his f1 plate might not hold up as one had hoped. Test it in the oven and one side is sure to break. If something does go wrong, trying to get the money back from the new plate maker, will be met with feeble excuses, such as the new owner did something to the plate, or more likely, no reply at all.

Lizzie

 

[bcody]

Lizzie, I agree with everything you said. I know nothing about Daschhunds or Yorkies , so this may not apply. There are some breeds (keeshonds are one of them) where there is another color, white in this case, and no not samoyeds orr eskies but pure Kees. That color is HIGHLY frowned apon, so most pups were culled, either killed by the unethical or neutered and sent off into the pet world. The genes are still there, and white ones show up occasionally. There are some people looking to breed the whites, they can have AKC papers,, but not shown in confirmation. I am sure this happens with other breeds, an undesirable color that is rare and shunned until it becomes the new thing. But, like Lizze said, some breeds they 'add in' a color, probably more often then people want to think.

This is So true!!!

Irresponsible breeders, will breed anything for a $ and often a lot of $s. NO responsible breeder, produces mixed breeds. NO responsible breeder, breeds extra small or extra large, dogs of a given breed, or charges more for 'rare' colours. They are only in it for the money. And that's a fact.

 

[Minimor]

Dachshunds, I thought, came in red or cream if solid colored, and if two colored could be black, chocolate, fawn and blue, each with tan markings...even way back when for as long as I remember liking dachshunds though I saw very few that weren't black/tan or red. I assumed those were the most desired colors & so were most common. I haven't seen a parti-color Yorkie but then I haven't seen many yorkies. I believe all of the above colors are acceptable to the AKC so I presume dogs of those colors count as purebred...or at least as purebred as any other dog.

Purebred collies have Borzoi back in their pedigrees from I don't know how long ago. I still don't get why anyone wanted to add Borzoi to collie; I've seen purebred collies that showed Borzoi quite plainly

 

[bevann]

In the USA most breed standards are governed by a breed parent club.Certain colors, coat types, etc are disqualified in the show ring.However,many breeds are registered with the American Kennel Club and the rules for registration with them may not be the same as for the show ring.Example,white German Shepherds may be registered with AKC but not shown at AKC sanctioned shows.I have not shown Shepherds for several years&I think this till applies.In this country in the 1960s mantle(marked like Boston Terriers) Great Danes were considered mismarks and culls for pets only.Now there are special classes for them at shows.However ,not all countries have the same rules.In 1977 I was fortunate enough to attend the Crufts Dog show in England.Over 8000 dogs entered that year.(Now it is over 28000) I saw piebald Daschunds for the first time and reddish colored Schipperkes.Both acceptable colors in England in the show ring.Dog breeding and showing is very interesting and constantly changing.I do get really upset with the new designer breeds.IMO it is just a mutt with a great big price tag often bringing more that a great quality purebred from a reputable breeder.I have seen some nice Labradoodles, but I have also seen lots of absolutely nutsy, neurotic ones that were even viscious.Man can certainly screw up some great breeds of dogs trying to make a buck.

 

[liltnt]

for years white boxers were unacceptable they were usually killed at birth...but today there are alot of them out there..Back 50 years ago we had doxies and the breed at that time was colored only as red and blk and tan...I haven gone to akc to read the standards I was jsut asking to see what I could find out... the yorkies Partie colored are really cute. Some of the designer dogs make since but take for example the pug and beagle... that doesnt. taking a hunter and breeding it with a couch potato just doesnt make since.NOw crossing a frenchie with a pug might eventually make it so the frenchie side of the dogs would be breed easier.

 

[brasstackminis]

Dachshunds can be any color...all colors! BUT if you show a Doxie, they are traditionally Black and tan or Red ...that's about it. The show ring HATES, for example, the piebald. Not sure why. I think it is like any other show...if I took a super dog or bitch into a ring and it won and the animal was the dreaded piebald color, there is a possibility that piebald dachshunds everywhere would now be sought after. I think there is a group of people who want something different. Cremes, Isabellas, Dapple (any color), Brindles, black (no tan) they are either loved or hated... Traditionalist will not want them...no matter what the conformation is. Many people like to look at the "cool" colors, but they buy the traditional ones. The exception seems to be cremes...everyone seems to like cremes.

My guess (guess only) is that it is probably similar with dogs as with the horses. Originally horses were bred for a purpose...not a paper. If a horse was born at the stud in Hannover, it was a Hannoverian. If the stud (place breeding the horses) decided that they wanted a little refinement, they may select a few Arabians to add refinement. Later they may add some draught horses. Paperwork did not matter...the result was what was important. AND if it was born at that stud, it was "registered" Hannoverian. Americans just take two horses that have Hannoverian papers and breed them together and register ALL the foals and sell them as Hannoverians. Peruvian Paso horses were bred to travel comfortably between haciendas. They bred Barbs, Andalusians, Spanish Jennets and others together and any who did not meet the expectations in temperment and gait were "rigorously culled from the herd!" We don't do that here. When developing the breeds overseas, more attention is put into function than into the paperwork.

Dachshunds were bred to hunt and kill badgers. They have a look, conformation and attitude for that purpose. I have seen some very poor specimens being bred. When I tell people that my dogs are retired show dogs, people instantly hear "High dollar" and leave! My explainations of how this makes them better pets is already lost?!!! The deep heartgirth and long rib cage support the long back of these guys. They are supposed to have long roman-type noses and big bones. Legs that turn out ("Eastie, westies") and lack of chest depth causes problems for the dog, if they work or are just pets! So what do you do? I can sell a "pet quality" dog without full papers, but that doesn't keep someone from breeding him...and/or registering the puppies! CKC is super easy to fudge a dog in...then there is all sorts of other papers...and uneducated people see "registered" and quit asking. Not all papers are created equal...

Border Collies have lots of different looks when they are working dogs. I can't think of a "pure bred" dog that doesn't descend from another breed or 10!!! That is why I find that genetic testing for breed so funny. How can they really tell? I have wanted to test my AKC dogs, just to see. But I don't have money to burn so I guess I will never know! LOL

 

[anoki]

In Cardigans, any colour is able to be registered, BUT through the CWCCA (US parent club) and possibly the CWCA (UK parent club)-I'd have to look up their standard again, we are ONLY allowed to breed blue merles to black (either tan pointed tri or brindle pointed tri). Why? Because if you breed blue merle to any other colour, you get 'weird' colours popping up. And way back when, the parent clubs decided this was unacceptable. So no ginger/red merles, no 'funny' colours....stupid if you ask me, but I didn't make the rules.....if there is a perfectly well suited blue and wanted to breed it to a perfectly well suited red/brindle/whatever, I don't understand the reasoning behind, no 'funny' colours. I belong to the parent club, so follow their rules. We also 'can't' breed blue to blue, but THAT I understand....in our breed it can produce white dogs which can have hearing, blindness and other disabilities...completely understand that one.

That is why I find that genetic testing for breed so funny. How can they really tell? I have wanted to test my AKC dogs, just to see. But I don't have money to burn so I guess I will never know! LOL

These tests have been proven to be completely unreliable and a HUGE money grab (by using purebred registered dogs and testing them)! If you look at ANY breed, there are HUGE variances to type....some much more noticeable than others. If you look at my small 'herd' of cardigans, there is quite a difference to them...and they are all related (father, daughter, grand-daughters, great grandsons).

~kathryn

 

[anoki]

CKC is super easy to fudge a dog in...then there is all sorts of other papers...and uneducated people see "registered" and quit asking. Not all papers are created equal...

Just re-read this...what CKC are you talking about??? The Canadian Kennel Club is NOT easy to 'fudge' a dog in......

~kathryn

 

[Lizzie]

I think brasstackminis was speaking of the Continental Kennel Club. It's a registry in the US, which will register anything. Someone registered their big toe with them a few years back, to prove the point. Those who have unregistered dogs of any kind here, often register with them. Sadly, many who buy these dogs, think the 'registration' means something. It just means they were scammed. Look through dog ads and you'll see many registered with the CKC. Very unfortunate also, that it sounds like the Canadian Kennel Club, which is legit.

Lizzie

 

[anoki]

I think brasstackminis was speaking of the Continental Kennel Club. It's a registry in the US, which will register anything. Someone registered their big toe with them a few years back, to prove the point. Those who have unregistered dogs of any kind here, often register with them. Sadly, many who buy these dogs, think the 'registration' means something. It just means they were scammed. Look through dog ads and you'll see many registered with the CKC. Very unfortunate also, that it sounds like the Canadian Kennel Club, which is legit.

Lizzie

That is what I thought she was posting about...but needed to clarify! They are 2 COMPLETELY different registries (I'm well aware of the Continental Kennel Club...didn't know if it still existed or not....), and some people see 'CKC' and think the incorrect one!

~kathryn

 

[Katiean]

Back when I was showing Yorkies (20 years ago) I knew a woman that ended up with a party color yorkie puppy and let's just say it was something you really did not want to talk about. Now they call them "RARE". Well, DUH!!! I have also seen all black and what some people like to tout as GOLDEN yorkies. They are something that were throwbacks and now you get people that are out to make a buck that breed to get these colors.

 

[mini horse mania]

Not to change the subject,but being a registered boer goat breeder,there are now polka dotted boer goats registered as fullblood,which had to habe nubian mixed in somewhere to get,those loud spots.they are bringing big bucks like your designer dogs are,there is a lady on fb that sells a mix of yorkie and so,ething for over $1000.she posts them on the no rules swap and sh op without a price,which for a mutt....i think is ridiculous...there are too many dog breeders,amd to many puppies without homess as it is