Question about splash white

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

Might be a stupid question that I already know the answer to, but is it possible for splash white to "hide" or is it always expressed? In other words, is it possible for a solid horse to be carrying splash, yet not express it physically?

Reason I ask:

I have this mare, a solid black bay with absolutely no white on her.. Her sire is Hobby Horse's Thunder Cloud (black pinto) sired by Cochise.. Her dam is listed as a chestnut appaloosa (HNFs Freckles), however, my mare has absolutely NO appy characteristics at all, no mottling/sclera/striped hooves etc, and has only had one appy foal which was sired by my near leopard/splash stallion (foal was born solid bay but by yearling he has started to frost)

When crossed on a pinto, she's always thrown pinto, when crossed on a solid she's thrown solid (and some have had facial markings)..

So I guess my question is, can splash hide? If not, then WHERE is all the white coming from? And if not from the mare would it be safe to say that Doc is a splash carrier?

Anyway, here's the mare in question:

Luck's Little Black Daisy

Daisy again

And again

This is her pinto colt sired by a black pinto (don't have any pics of the stallion, saw one pic and he looked like a typical 50/50 black tobiano, no blue eyes, no facial markings)

A daughter we own, sired by black pinto (there is also a full sibling filly to this mare, looks identical except she has the big brown patch on both sides):

This year's colt sired by our stallion Oak Parks Oh Im Awesome:

And then she has two full sibling bay fillies, both sired by a black stallion with star/socks, one filly was completely solid, other filly had a small star.

 

[Minimor]

I would say that the white is coming from the stallion. If you bred the mare to a solid stallion & got lots of white that would be different, but when you're breeding her to a pinto & coming up with lots of white I would have to think it's from the sire.

My Jewell is out of a solid mare & sired by a stallion that appears to be a minimal tobiano. He has no white except for two hind socks....I think there may be a bit of white on his face but I cannot remember for sure, the photos are on my old computer, not on this one so I can't check. If Lewella reads this, she will be able to say--she'll be able to answer your question too!...anyway, Jewell's sire hasn't got much white on him, no blue eyes, and her mother is a solid. Jewell came out a loud pinto with blue eyes--so her sire Fox is hiding splash and possibly sabino (not sure about sabino) under what appears to be tobiano only.

 

[Songcatcher]

Sinice there is not yet a test for Splash, the debate as to if it can hide or not will continue. I know it can be very minimal, but also possible that the foals got their white from the sire. I used to own a very loud marked stallion (who obviously carried Tobiano, Splash, and Sabino) whose parents were both registered as solids.

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

Thanks, that's what I was figuring lol and I do believe my Doc boy is sabino as well since his pattern edges are "wispy" instead of distinct

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I agree, the white is coming from the sire, although that one horse with the star and snip is definitely Splash, to me.

I have a Splash mare who has just and even white star, she has brown eyes.

Her GG Grandmother was jet black, no body white at all and two blue eyes|!

 

[Lewella]

Splash, being an incomplete dominant, really needs help to express when heterozygous. If there isn't another pattern such as Sabino there to help it along you may get little or no white markings. I've seen them as minimal as a fleck of blue in an eye or a few white hairs on the end of the nose turn around and produce well expressed offspring because their mate had the genetics necessary to help Splash express.

Tobiano can easily restrict Splash face white expression so just because a tobiano has no face white doesn't mean it doesn't also have Splash. One of my favorite examples of a tobiano + Splash with almost no face white (just a faint star) is K-Dee's Sir Gentry http://www.miniatureshetlands.us/gentry.html Even though his face doesn't show his Splash his body markings do so beautifully! Note the V shape to his color over his back - that is the result of Splash influencing the shape of his tobiano markings. Lack of a chest shield is also a good indicator of Splash influencing the placement and size of tobiano markings.

 

[ohmt]

I would say the splash is coming from the sires but who knows! Maybe it is your girl

I used to have a bay minimal tobiano with a small snip and he was our herd sire for years and years. We bred him to mostly solid mares and his foals from those mares were a mix of loud pinto (more than 50/50) with a lot of face white, minimal tobianos, and solids. Almost all of his foals had his little snip and if they weren't born with it, it usually appeared by the time they hit 5. All of those that we kept have produced splash for me too (more than 50/50 with a lot of face white). I just love breeding the horses that are from this lineage because I get the best surprises!

 

[bevann]

Splash, being an incomplete dominant, really needs help to express when heterozygous. If there isn't another pattern such as Sabino there to help it along you may get little or no white markings. I've seen them as minimal as a fleck of blue in an eye or a few white hairs on the end of the nose turn around and produce well expressed offspring because their mate had the genetics necessary to help Splash express.

Tobiano can easily restrict Splash face white expression so just because a tobiano has no face white doesn't mean it doesn't also have Splash. One of my favorite examples of a tobiano + Splash with almost no face white (just a faint star) is K-Dee's Sir Gentry http://www.miniatureshetlands.us/gentry.html Even though his face doesn't show his Splash his body markings do so beautifully! Note the V shape to his color over his back - that is the result of Splash influencing the shape of his tobiano markings. Lack of a chest shield is also a good indicator of Splash influencing the placement and size of tobiano markings.

IMO you need to consider the origin of your Mini's ancestors and the breeding practices of some of the old timers.I also owned a mare with the farm prefix HNF-she had dam unknown.When I questioned the fact that how it was possible to have an unknown dam I was told in the 1980s by an old timer in the breed that HNF farm had bands of Mini mares with a stallion and at weaning time they just took all the babies out at the same time so they had no idea which baby went with which dam.They knew who the sire was.In other farms they had vast acreage and several bands of Minis with multiple stallions and their own band of mares much like in the wild.At weaning time the mares were rounded up babies seperated and in that case you might know who the dam was.Can you imagine trying to figure out who a mare was if she was a solid bay or black or other solid color with no markings and you had not had much contact with her since weaning time the previous year?Thank goodness today most breeders are more particular about correct info on papers.I also know that some papers do not have the correct colors.I owned a loud blk and white Appaloosa stallion many years ago and his papers had him listed as a pinto.Sometimes color is just a guessing game and like Christmas.You never know what you are going to get and sometimes can't figure out how it got there.