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Sandy S.

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THE SECOND PARAGRAPH IS WHERE QUEST IS MENTIONED. HOPING HORSE OWNERS DON'T SWITCH TO USE IT.

Scientists Investigate Dewormers' Effects on Bowel Walls

by: Judith Lee

August 2006 Article # 7332

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Recent research indicates that when selecting a dewormer, horse owners should consider the season, their horse’s access to grass, and his body condition. German scientists have shown that the bowel walls of small strongyle-infected ponies become inflamed when they are treated with fenbendazole, a dewormer sold as Panacur. The inflammation doesn't appear to be caused directly by the fenbendazole, but by toxins excreted by dying and dead larvae.

This finding was a surprise to the researchers, as similarly infected horses treated with another dewormer, moxidectin (Quest), did not show an inflammatory reaction.

"We had thought a dead larva is a dead larva, but learned that there are drug-related differences--the reasons of which are presently not known to us," remarked Horst Zahner, PhD, study co-author and head of the Institute of Parasitology of the Justus Liebig University Giessen in Giessen, Germany.

It’s important to note that the researchers did not observe clinical signs of illness in any of the study ponies. Craig Barnett, DVM, senior equine services veterinarian for Intervet, the manufacturer of Panacur, called reports of clinical signs following deworming "extremely rare."

The German researchers compared fenbendazole and moxidectin because these were the only dewormers that historically have been shown as effective against small strongyle larvae encysted in the bowel wall. They studied 24 weanling ponies, four of which were stabled and dewormed as a control group. Twenty ponies that weren't dewormed grazed from September until December, then were stabled. Eight weeks later, they were treated either with the European dosage of fenbendazole (25% lower than the U.S. dosage) or moxidectin. The ponies treated with fenbendazole showed a mild early reaction to the compound in their bowel walls, and marked inflammation or even ulceration two weeks after treatment. The ponies treated with moxidectin did not show inflammation or ulceration of the bowel wall, and the control group did not react to either dewormer (most likely because they were not significantly infected with larvae).

Zahner emphasized that the reaction only occurred when there was a heavy larval infestation, which generally accumulates during a full season of grazing.

"If this proportion of the parasite burden is absent or small, there may be no differences between moxidectin and fenbendazole," said Zahner. "At the end of the grazing season, the use of moxidectin for anthelmintic treatment may help to avoid/reduce tissue damage in heavily infected horses."

Craig Reinemeyer, DVM, PhD, president of East Tennessee Clinical Research in Knoxville, Tenn., noted that severe small strongyle infestation is more of a problem in Europe, where cooler, wetter weather favors worms.

As fenbendazole is sometimes used in "hard keepers" to help them gain or maintain adequate weight, Zahner advised horse owners to consult with their veterinarians prior to deworming to ensure the horse is not heavily infected with small strongyles.

Reinemeyer has conducted studies similar to the German study, and he observed that despite possible inflammation, bowel tissues of treated horses were healthier than in horses that have not been dewormed at all.
 
This is a good post.

Being fairly new to the mini horses, a friend of mine had told me not to use Quest with my mini gelding. I last dewormed him with Pyrantel Pamoate in liquid form as a top dress on his grain.

We have since acquired a weanling colt who will need to be dewormed - I guess I am asking for opinions as what everyone would use as a dewormer for my boys. Just want them to be healty!

Thanks ahead.
 
I MYSELF WOULD STILL NOT USE QUEST. TO MANY BAD REACTIONS THAT I HAVE HEARD OF AND NOT WORTH TAKING A CHANCE.
 
Perhaps this reaction occurred because with the fenbendazole, there was a SIGNIFICANT kill-off of the encysted small stronglyes...published information I have read indicates that a five day, double dosing(by weight)of fenbendazole(Panacur, or, Safeguard, brands of paste dewormer)is considerably more effective in getting rid of the above, than is Quest. The cited article states that the 'inflammation' is thought to be due to toxins released by dead/dying larvae, NOT to the deworming agent used....ergo, more killed off, more toxins produced....DUH. This sounds like self-serving 'scare tactic' type stuff to me, from those who make/sell Quest-and does not in any way change my personal decision NOT TO USE Quest, period.

You will notice that the quoted passage does not indicate that the observed 'inflammatory response' was proven detrimental to the long-term, overall health of the animals involved.

Margo
 
Quest is a wonderful wormer.

Its long lasting, works very well killing all kinds of bugs, and has a HUGE range of efficacy. How did it get such a bad reputation? Because people don't follow the directions. It says very clearly on the lable not to administer to underweight animals, and to weigh out the animals carefully. I had a 20 minute conversation with a veterinarian at Fort Dodge (the manufacturer of Quest and Quest Plus) with my concerns for both the full sized stallions we have here plus my little boy.

My concern was with the inefficiency of weight tapes. I taped all 22 of the stallions here as weighing in between 800lbs and 1200lbs. Then we put them all on a scale (one at a time of course
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: ) and weighed them that way. We found that on average we were only 85% accurate, meaning we were anywhere from 5lbs off to 250lbs off. That's a huge amount of error. So what if we under dose them? or overdose? In addition to the health risks (everyone has the fear of overdosing a horse and killing them with Quest) would the wormer do any good? That's what I asked the doctor I spoke to (apparently he thought I was a vet too... he kept saying "as one practitioner to another"
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What I learned from this Dr was:

1) the safety studies show toxic neurological effects at an overdose of over 3 times the recommended dose (signs became apparent between 3.1 and 4x overdose)

2) a half dose is just as effective as a full dose, for everything except bots

3) If you use Quest Plus (like we were planning to use) the tapeworm medication was shown effective at 50-75% of the dose

The problems, he explained, were from people who accidently dosed their pony/mini with a full tube. That right there is between 3 and 4x the dose they should get, right in the studied danger zone. Correctly dosing a horse according to a weight tape, even with that method's inaccuracy, is just fine. He also said he would sleep just fine at night if he accidently double dosed a horse.

He went on to explain, after I mentioned the warnings I have recieved in miniatures, that Quest is lipiphillic, meaning it likes lipids (fat). This means that Quest is stored in fat in the horse's body, slowly being released which leads to Quest's unusually long interval between doses. This is where mini people have the problems. If your mini is thin or has a low amount of fat, its body might be flooded with the wormer which would minic an overdose.

So take the scare stories with a grain of salt. Quest is a wonderful wormer, but it does have a lower than normal LD50 than most other wormers. As long as you understand how and why it does what it does, it CAN be a safe alternative in a proper rotational schedule. My little guy taped in around 270lbs. When I worm my Appendix in two weeks with 1050lbs of Quest, he'll get the remaining 200lbs. After discussing this with several vets, including the one working for Fort Dodge who's company's reputation and legal liability revolves around his recommendations, I've concluded that a slight underdosing would be plenty safe. (bots aren't a huge problem here).

ANY wormer can kill. Endotoxins are released when worms die, and if there are enough dying then the horse can die from endotoxin poisoning. This study is saying that Quest kills the worms slower (which makes sense, realizing that Quest is a fat soluable chemical meaning its released at lower levels for a longer time), resulting in less flooding of the system. Ivermectin is one of the safest wormers, one you could theoretically overdose with a 20x dose without causing problems in a healthy animal. But try that in a wormy animal and the worms will kill them, not the wormer. That's what this study is saying, and it makes a lot of sense combined with the fat information.

Information about Quest:

http://www.wyeth.com/products/animalhealth...l_overview.html

The number I called to discuss this with the vet:

"If you have any questions or comments about Fort Dodge Animal products, please call us at 1-800-533-8536."

Fort Dodge Animal Health website for Quest/Quest Plus:

http://www.fortdodgelivestock.com/equine/equine-quest.htm
 
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I feel the same way as Mountain_Waif. If you feel it is fine to use Quest, then good luck to you and I pray for your horses. There's a good chance that nothing bad will happen, but there is also the chance that something will, and you have been warned about the product. Do what feels right to you and then you will only have yourself to blame. As for me, I have spoken to those who have had their minis die from a "very" small dose, and I love my horses too much to even chance something like that.

By the way, I am one of those new horse owners, and I accidently purchased Quest from the recommendation of a woman at the feed store. Thank God the people on this forum brought the dangers to my attention because when I returned the product, the lady specifically told me "Oh, I didn't know you had minis or I would never have recommended it". She also uses it on her big horses, but knew the dangers of giving it to smaller ones.
 
I haven't. But that doesn't mean I should recommend education and investigating claims like this. The OP's comment was "HOPING HORSE OWNERS DON'T SWITCH TO USE IT.". There is no evidence in horses that there is a problem assuming you dose correctly and don't use on underweight animals. In minis there is, hence why I spent so much time discussing it with several vets to decide if it was safe or not. It is a good wormer in full sized horses, a very good one. Yes, it has dangers in smaller horses, but from all the evidence I've gathered, minus anicdotal stories, it seems to be fine. I'm not saying everyone needs to go out and buy it now, I'm saying maybe everyone doesn't have to avoid it like the plague.
 
Nathan you are SO wrong.

There is a person on here that has lost her horse due to the use of Quest and there are many others that have had sick horses due to it.

You need to go back to the drawing board on this one, I am afraid.

As I explained to you on another thread, it is the method of storage and release that I believe (no scientific proof as no-one is interested in researching it) causes the damage.
 
I do believe that you and I said the same thing as far as how its stored and released. You did add that they have a different proportion of body fat.
 
JMO I don't care if it was the last wormer on earth...I still wouldn't use it! :no: plain and simple!

Joyce
 
My vet refuses to use Quest on any size horse. That being said--I did have a filly I bought as a yearling and after worming her with panacur became very ill. She was diagnosed with protein loosing enteropathy and the vets feel it was caused by damage from worms being killed off from the Panacur. She is the only horse that I've had react to Panacur. As a result I stay away from it so she doesn't accidently get it. Our vet has us use Strongid C daily and ivermectin gold quarterly. So far it has worked well.

--RachelJ
 
No Rumour Quest Killed my Gelding December 2005

In Loving Memory

SeahorseStanding.jpg


Please Read
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Was not overdosed and he was in excellent health, within 24 hours after giving Quest, he colic and took him a week to die, not pleasant. Vet was out 4 times in that week. Everything was documented.

Quest paid for the Autopsy, and all my vet bills.

http://www.equinenet.org/ernet/worms.html
 
In addition to Reble's beautiful gelding, I personally know another mini owner here in Oregon (a good friend) who lost a colt to Quest, and it was her vet who wormed him! The colt went into horrible siezures before dying.

No, I will never use Quest. There are other products for worming that work just fine, so why take the chance.

MA
 
Most of you know about Theia and the Vet that overdosed her what happened to her after.

Though doing much better...she is still not what I would say 100%. If the Fort Dodge Vet did not help I know she would of died.

I will never, ever use Quest again or allow even a Vet to give it to my horses for any reason.

She was in great health before and on a good worming program.
 
I thought Quest has a suggestion not to use the product on Minis in the directions now? Did someone here say they seen that in the directions??

The insert only in the U.S. not in Canada :new_shocked:
 
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This is what was on the label on the box that I "accidently" purchased.

Warning(s): Extreme caution should be used when administering the product to foals, young and miniature horses, as overdosage may result in serious adverse reactions. Do not use in horses or ponies intended for food.

Lesson to all....read warnings very carefully.
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This is what was on the label on the box that I "accidently" purchased.

Warning(s): Extreme caution should be used when administering the product to foals, young and miniature horses, as overdosage may result in serious adverse reactions. Do not use in horses or ponies intended for food.

Lesson to all....read warnings very carefully.
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:

In Canada they do not have that on our inserts or the box. I kept my insert:

By Wyeth Animal Health,

Division of Wyeth Canada

Guelph, Ontario :new_2gunsfiring_v1:

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: It was only put in the inserts revised March 2003 in the U.S.
 
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