PROTESTS

[rabbitsfizz]

I think the thing that is confusing the issue here is people with dual registered horses showing as both.

I had thought this was not allowed at the same show??

I think what is being suggested is that the rule should be taken one step further and you are only allowed to show as a Shetland or a Mini for the season, and that you "declare" at the beginning of the season??

Over here the Shetland is a completely different type to the Miniature Horse so it is not quite so complicated, although we do have some very nice dual registered horses and, at the end of the day, I would rather see an animal that is sound in every way win then be beaten by an animal that is rubbish but a more typical Miniature Horse.

To me your "shetlands" look like Miniature Horses anyway, so I cannot see the problem.

If they qualify height wise then they are allowed to show as Minis.

End of story, I would have thought.

The issue her, the real problem, is that some of these horses do not qualify , height wise, and their owners/trainers are blatantly cheating in order to get them in the classes.

This has to be stopped.

It all seems so simple- the members overwhelm the BOD with demands and everything is sorted out!!

NOT going to happen.

Being totally cynical here, how many of the BOD show/breed/train??

It's called a vested interest.

These people, when they come off the BOD want to be able to slip back into their showing/breeding/training world easily, not fight off a reputation for having "ruined" the society, which is what these powerful people will claim they have done.

The best thing I can see for you to do is throw the society away and start again.

Measure properly- to the withers, none of this "last hair" nonsense as that is where all the problems started,- and make sure all the correct rules are in place.

The person in the AMHA who sues everyone??

Throw her out for bringing the society into disrepute, it is the prerogative of the BOD to exclude any member.

I'm not even sure they have to give a reason- not positive on that one, being reasonable I would expect an explanation but I am not sure one has to be given, so long as procedure is followed.

I'm afraid I would be looking for the resignation of the Directors who failed their members by not following correct procedure in the first place, though.

I do feel sympathy for them, as they were, we have to presume, doing the best that they could, but I do feel they should just quietly go, now.

But this is all pie in the sky whilst we sit here and type it out instead of standing up and talking, firmly, to those at the reins.

 

[mistyrose]

I think some of the issue with the doubled registered horses is because miniatures are a height breed and we want to be a "real" breed. With the heights only we are not breeding towards a type just a height. The shetlands that look like hackneys are not the type that I (personally) want the miniatures to become. The hackney moves like a dream but they don't look like the nice paints or Arabs or QH out in the fields of this country.

I want the miniature horse type to be that of those full size horses. I don't like the heads and proportions that I am seeing on those crosses winning at the R shows. Hopefully, this is just a stage and the breed will continue to evolve through this stage. Is it possible to have a neck that is too long? I think so. I want the poportional horse with proper conformation and muscling to win, not the longest neck.

Of course silly me, I want the judges to take stage of development into account and not place a weanling that looks like a five year old horse with a short tail. I want them to place the best weanling that looks like a weanling. I don't want a yearling to look like a five year old either. If it does it will surely be a no show as an adult.

 

[Laura]

[SIZE=12pt]I have only had occasion to file one protest in ALL (15 years) of my years of showing. I filed it, it was attended to, and action was taken. Maybe not the action I wanted, but then again I was mad as H*** and may not have been using the best judgement

: [/SIZE]

If I had seen anything at nationals this year, that affected MY horses directly, you're dam skippy I would have filed a protest. It's my right as a member and exhibitor and I would have done what needed to be done.

Also, as far as the height issue at Nat's, I had 5 babies show in the Futurity division. My SMALLEST (27.5") filly placed the best and was by far the smallest pulled out in the under weanling filly class for final judging by the futurity judge. She placed 6th in that HUGE class, so height did not affect her placing IMO...her royal rotten-ness manners likely prevented her placing higher though (she was the one with jim Curry) and she was being BAD!!!

:

:

 

[Jean_B]

.....Also, some of the Shetland ponies that are shown at AMHR nationals go oversize as yearlings or two year olds. I just feel that they should keep it to horses that are going to mature under 38".

I think the organization has already addressed this issue.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of knowing for sure how tall a weanling or yearling or two year old will go as a senior horse. You can guess.... but that's it. That is why they instituted the change several years ago that if a weanling measured more than 32" - it could not show in ANY mini class. Yearlings cannot measure over 36". Period. That's it. And a 2 year old cannot be taller than 37".

This is a far cry better than it was before the change. I remember back in the 90s - watching some 36" WEANLINGS walk in the ring. And I competed against a solid 38" yearling back then. Needless to say, those animals never came back as senior horses.

 

[Laura]

.....Also, some of the Shetland ponies that are shown at AMHR nationals go oversize as yearlings or two year olds. I just feel that they should keep it to horses that are going to mature under 38".

I think the organization has already addressed this issue.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of knowing for sure how tall a weanling or yearling or two year old will go as a senior horse. You can guess.... but that's it. That is why they instituted the change several years ago that if a weanling measured more than 32" - it could not show in ANY mini class. Yearlings cannot measure over 36". Period. That's it. And a 2 year old cannot be taller than 37".

This is a far cry better than it was before the change. I remember back in the 90s - watching some 36" WEANLINGS walk in the ring. And I competed against a solid 38" yearling back then. Needless to say, those animals never came back as senior horses.

[SIZE=12pt]You and me both Jean! I remember those days too. I know the stewards at nationals (have known them for YEARS and have sold a stallion to one of them) and I trust them not to finagle measurements. They don't have any control over what people do what to their horses back at home or at their stalls to make them dip their back. I'd have preferred one of my fillies to measure BIGGER this year (to make me have 2 in under and 2 in over, not 3 in under), but she wasn't bigger so that was that

: . She measured how she measured, period, my tough luck. I just had to find more handlers...and incredible ones I did find!!

:

: [/SIZE]

 

[Nancy G]

I have ONE question! Why do we need to protest at all? Shouldn`t the people who measure follow the rules!! That would make life so much easier and FAIR. All they need to do is FOLLOW the rules of the registry. WHat is SO hard about that. We obviously need more honesty in both the registries. And if everyone is going to show horses over the size limit I`d say the heights need to be changed so we can all show in the same size class.

:

 

[Jean_B]

I don't think you will find any more HONEST people anywhere on the planet than the ones who were doing the measuring at Nationals. They are good people, trying to do the best job they can.

I have been showing at Nationals since 1995 -- and I have never had a horse measure there any differently than what I get it at home.

I know from FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE from measuring at a number of AMHA shows that a horse can measure distinctly differently from one moment to the next just by how it is brought in for measuring.

If it is a stallion and the person rushed up there, if there was a mare ahead of it in the measuring line, if the handler is nervous, that horse might be "pumped up" and measure taller. If that handler asks for a remeasure **WHICH IS ALLOWED** and they get the horse to relax, it can drop by a lot. If a horse has been trained to dip it's back when approached by the stick......not sure how you do that and I don't want to know....well, how the heck do you police that?????

Those stewards did one heck of a good job. Horses were moved either up or down because of improper measuring by their owners at home. In my case, I had to move a horse up because he grew faster than I thought he would from the time entries were submitted (I measured him when I got home and they were dead on). Were mistakes made? Maybe .... after all, they measured darn near 2,000 horses--some of them the allowed 3 times!!! But all in all, I can't complain about what I saw in the arena.

There were some optical illusions out there too! I'm thinking of one horse in particular that looked really big when being lead in by its handler....because the handler is short. Didn't look so big when it was next to its competition though.

 

[k9mini2]

Hi everyone. I don't visit on a regular basis, but was visiting tonight and read through this whole discussion. I have one main question. One or wto people said miniatures are NOT a breed and that Shetlands are.....because shetlands keep track of bloodlines??????????? WHAT are the minis then????? just a bunch of mongrels that are short??? LOL

: As far as I can tell minis keep track of bloodlines via pedigrees and one club requires DNA the other doesn't but I suspect thats only a matter of time. Pedigrees document bloodlines yes???

So I conclude miniatures are a breed with a disqualification for being oversize....just like quarter horses are a breed but disqualify if a horse has spots ....and yes they do have two quarter horses bred together wo produce spots....(overos)

Sorry I just kind of resent the breed I love being refered to as "not a true breed"

I know I know

: it has not been round for 100's of years but the current day shetland is not the same breed that it was in 1950 either.

: ?? OR the same breed that the English show as Shetlands????

No intent to offend here I just like the minis and do think of them as a breed despite what others imply

Which makes me ask another question Rabbit Fizz what do shetlands look like over there?

 

[Mona]

The thing is, minis are a HEIGHT breed only...nothing more. That is what people are saying. Yes, we keep track of pedigrees WHEN we can, but with hardshipping etc. ANY horse measuring within the height(and with decent conformation and no disqualifying faults) can be hardshipped in. So if we actually had a 34" purebred Saddlebred, it could be registered as a "purebred" Miniature Horse, BECAUSE it was short enough to meet the height requirement that it takes to "become" a registered Miniature Horse. That's all people are trying to say.

Hi everyone. I don't visit on a regular basis, but was visiting tonight and read through this whole discussion. I have one main question. One or wto people said miniatures are NOT a breed and that Shetlands are.....because shetlands keep track of bloodlines??????????? WHAT are the minis then????? just a bunch of mongrels that are short??? LOL

: As far as I can tell minis keep track of bloodlines via pedigrees and one club requires DNA the other doesn't but I suspect thats only a matter of time. Pedigrees document bloodlines yes???

So I conclude miniatures are a breed with a disqualification for being oversize....just like quarter horses are a breed but disqualify if a horse has spots ....and yes they do have two quarter horses bred together wo produce spots....(overos)

Sorry I just kind of resent the breed I love being refered to as "not a true breed"

I know I know

: it has not been round for 100's of years but the current day shetland is not the same breed that it was in 1950 either.

: ?? OR the same breed that the English show as Shetlands????

No intent to offend here I just like the minis and do think of them as a breed despite what others imply

Which makes me ask another question Rabbit Fizz what do shetlands look like over there?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

A Quarter Horse can be recognised as a quarter Horse- you do not have to measure it to prove it is a QH.

Same with Arabs.

Minis cannot be recognised- not all Under Shetlands are registered Minis so- are they Minis??

Miniature Horses are not a breed because they have no recognisable traits save their height.

It is that simple as far as I can see.

Yes, we keep pedigrees- a lot have a HUGE amount of blanks on them but you have to start somewhere.

One day, maybe, we will be a breed.

Maybe not as no-one can agree on what a Mini should look like, and that is the only way to distinguish a breed.

 

[k9mini2]

Hi Mona and Rabbitsfizz, thanks for the responses. I understand what you are both pointing out and I know you are both interested in both breeds. Your points are well taken and I can see the reasoning.

I am still having problems with minis not being considered a true breed. Here's my thinking. APHA horses. I know came about because the Quarter horse registry disqualified them as registered horses because they had spots... Also the other pinto registry can't recall its designation. But essentially they are color breeds and if that is the case then they are not a true breed either???? how about the appaloosa horse club....they are based on color only so they are not a breed.? (I realize they allow breeding stock non colored horses, but they don't allow them to show)

And are shetlands and for that matter Hackneys, Haflingers, connemeras and any other pony breeds, arent they all height breeds when you get down to it?

So what it comes down to perhaps is that the miniature hasn't established a set type more so than anything else? and Pehaps we are not a closed registry allowing hardshipping? I could buy that as reason for others not considering the mini a breed, but just to exclude the breed because we disqualify for height really bothers me somehow.

It is probabably just a mind set on my part I guess, don't mean to be a jerk about this, just kind of blows me away that I have a breed of horse that isn't considered a breed after all...not sure why I am paying those dang high registrations fees then....lol :bgrin

 

[disneyhorse]

A ''breed'' is any group of animals that share a common genetic pool and have particular distinguishing features. The miniature horse IS a breed, you can register animals as the breed, and they are distinguished by their small size. Some breeds of horse are VERY strict, such as the Friesian, which requires consistent and strict features (their size cannot be too tall or too small!). Some breeds are closed to outside breeding to preserve the strict bloodlines they have created, and some are not. Shetlands are NOT a 'height breed' per se because if your horse is too tall to show by show standards you do not have the papers pulled and you can still breed it for registered offspring.

I don't see any problems with having horses registered in different registries and breeds... you can register your Paint horse as a Pinto and show it in both registries.

A nice horse is a nice horse, period, no matter WHAT registry it is showing under. More power to them.

Andrea

 

[jdhand]

Well we went to Nationals and had a very good time. The measuring stewards were nice and professional. However I did see several large horses that I don't know how they measured in under 38 inches. I have a mini that is 36 to 37 inches tall and the horses I am referring to were several inches taller than he is. I read the rule book and it clearly states that no stretching is allowed. They are to stand square and be measured. So with this being said I just don't know. As far as the shetland thing. If they measure in correctly let them show. Also in the rule book it talks about the standard of perfection for what the miniature horse is to be. This standard does not reglect that of several of the winning horses at this years nationals. Anyway I love my miniature horses and plan to continue to show them. I just may not go to nationals. I will just show in sanctioned shows around the country and have a good time. If the rule book would be followed by exhibitors, stewards, judges, amateurs, trainers, and all parties involved we could all have a good time and feel we had an equal playing field. But it seems everyone is pushing their limits in todays society. Two wrongs don't make a right so I will just go by the rules and not worry about everyone else.

 

[Russ]

WOW, I am really surprised you feel that way Dionne. Your B mare was beautiful showing at the IA State Fair Miniature show and the IA Miniature horse club show(I was there

: )......which are mini only shows titled by the hosts of the events. If you don't believe B's are miniatures can I have your junior champion and reserve over ribbon from the fair? :bgrin :lol: :bgrin

Generally speaking here,,,,,Shetland or miniature isn't a 4 lettered dirty word. :lol: I don't get the stigma that seems to be held by some. The shetland bloodlines FLOW through mini's somewhere in the lineage(with a few exceptions).....how do you think we got mini's?......selectively breeding down for years.....generations etc. from Shetlands.

: If I didn't believe a B registered as a mini and accepted as a mini by the registry and the entire industry.....wasn't a true mini....then I wouldn't enter a mini show.

JMHO

I feel when a horse is shown in the "B" division you are seeing the smaller shetland, not a miniature. I noticed they even had the "B's" at the Nationals were stretched out like the shetlands. dionne

 

[bridlebit]

I have to say that I agree that the Miniatures are a "breed". At this time, both registries are closed and to register offspring both parents have to be registered with either association. As you say, AMHA required DNA tests and parent qualifying. If this is not a breed registry, what is it? As far as some of the big breeds, they too allow hardshipping as long as the animal meets the required standards of that breed.

My question is this, if the miniature horse was bred down from the Shetlland, then why can they not be hardshipped into the registry? Most of my minis do have some Shetland blood in their pedigree, but they are not allowed at any of the Shetland shows. That is the problem I have, that Shetlands are allowed to show AMHR but minis are not allowed to show Shetland. I believe that our breed standard of perfection is more like the big Arab or QH, not the Hackney or Modern Shetland. At Nationals I saw a hackney type mare place over beautiful arab type B minis. I hope that this is not where the breed standard is going.

I do also know that if you hardship a horse and it does not meet the breed standard even though it is under 38" it will not be registered.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Neither registry is closed.

You can hardship into AMHA and then hardship from AMHA into AMHR.

So...it is a height registry that accepts animals of any kind, type colour and pattern.

A breed is a little more specific.

One day these little horses will become a breed, some farms are pretty much there as you can tell a horse with the breeding of certain Farms just by looking.

Once you can tell something is a Miniature Horse without having to measure it, we will be on the right track.

Closing the Registries will not make this horse into a breed, it will just limit the gene pool, which may or may not be a good thing.

 

[Sharron]

My question is this, if the miniature horse was bred down from the Shetlland, then why can they not be hardshipped into the registry? Most of my minis do have some Shetland blood in their pedigree, but they are not allowed at any of the Shetland shows. That is the problem I have, that Shetlands are allowed to show AMHR but minis are not allowed to show Shetland. I believe that our breed standard of perfection is more like the big Arab or QH, not the Hackney or Modern Shetland. At Nationals I saw a hackney type mare place over beautiful arab type B minis. I hope that this is not where the breed standard is going.

Hi Deb, guess in essence, you can blame those first breeders that decided to "split" away from the ASPC/AMHR, and caused everyone to think "Shetland" was a dirty word or name. They are the ones that threw away those registration certificates, that would have allowed todays miniatures to be registered as Shetlands, and be double registered...As of todays standards, the Shetland is a BREED, the miniatures are a height registry. Shall the twain ever meet? your guess is as good as mine. Probably NOT in my lifetime.

The debate will go on and on for ever, and as far as the Shetlands ever opening up the registry for those horses with "shetland" in their background...I would say the "twelth of never" would be a good analagy as to time....again it all goes BACK to the original founders of those registry's that denied the fact, and tried to make everyone believe, that the miniature was bred down from full sized horses and that there is NO Shetland blood in them...if you want to place blame, then that is the place to start.

There have been those in both the Shetland and Miniature horse registry, that have had the foresight to keep their horses registered in the ASPC/and AMHR...even some of US that have triple registered miniatures, that are also AMHA registered...We being one of the latter. We have a 32.75" Shetland that we can trace back to the beginning of the registry, that IS eligible to be both a miniature and Shetland...is he siring top quality babies for us? You BET! Are we upset because we can't show them Shetland? NO they are MINIATURES, from registered dams ( that are also miniature and go back to unregistered Shetlands) we can take them to a show and compete in the miniature classes, and be called "one of those showing Shetlands". I have always been a believer in the fact that a good horse is a good horse no matter their color or breed...If everyone is so darn upset with the shetlands showing as miniatures, then bite the bullet and go find one that will compete and BEAT those that are winning, don't read the pedigree or papers..........LOOK AT THE HORSE The horses could care what is on their registration papers...it is only people that harp on pedigree, and don't assess the horse that is standing in front of them, and then crying fowl every time they get beat...ok flame suit on....fire away....I have to go back to work, to make enough money to go out and "beat the bushes" to find that next outstanding individual that will carry both Miniature and Shetland papers, but then maybe I just have to walk out and look in my own pasture!

Sharron

 

[HGFarm]

I am not sure why folks are wanting a 'set type' of Miniature......

Look at the Arabians- there are different 'types'. Also QH's- some are more towards a Thoroughbred build all the way to the shorter muscular cow pony types. They are still all QH's.

So I am not sure why folks are so set on a type??

 

[Minimor]

I've been thinking about this type thing too. Ideally, yes, a breed should have a type and all horses of that breed look like that type, but it kind of doesn't work that way. Look at the Morgans. Originally Morgans did look like Justin Morgan--or at least they were similar to him. The Shermans had a different look from the Black Hawks, and both were quite different from the Woodburys--one breed, 3 different families, 3 different types, but all were recognized as Morgan. Now we have the saddlebred type Morgans, the working western type Morgans, the Lippitts. Some look very "Morgan", others not at all IMO.

I don't see the Miniature ever being one specific type, and since "Miniature" does have a direct link to "height"--how can we ever be a true breed and not a height breed?

 

[stormy]

Yes miniature horses are a height breed, as are shetland ponies, POAs, Connemeras, Haflingers, Trottingbreds, etc. etc. Miniatures also have a written, defined breed standard. Not any animal under 34" can be hardshipped, they must be inspected and approved. The Miniature Horse is a breed with criteria for registration just as any other breed large or small and it is a terrible shame miniature breeders can not seem to accept this. How do we expect the miniature horse to be taken seriously in the horse world when we as breeders do not take the breed seriously!?