Pivots in Showmanship

[maestoso]

I have a question about pivots in showmanship. I am specifically speaking in reference to AMHA. I am not trying to sound snooty, but I am looking for answers specifically from people have have shown in AMHA showmanship at the rated and world level, and know the specific answer to the question. Not looking for what people think looks better or their opinions, hoping to find the actual answer.

In Showmanship, pivots on the back leg are necessary. My question is, do judges look for or prefer the horse to pivot on the leg closest to you(inside) or the outside leg. I have always pivoted on the outside leg, it's what I did this year at worlds and placed 6th out of 25. Some exhibitors do it like me, and others pivot on the inside leg. Does it matter? Is there a specific rule referring to this? Do most judges tend to prefer one way over the other?

If anyone out there has spoken personally to a judge on this matter I would be interested in hearing what they had to say and who the judge was.

Thanks a lot,

Matt

 

[Reble]

Matt I did not read anything there on what leg to pivot in showmanship

you must notice details, never thought of which leg to pivot.

but this article is from one of our members here and is a Judge for ASPC / AMHR , hope this helps you. If not maybe others might enjoy learning.

Great Article by Arlene Foulk

Foulk's Fantasy Farm and Training Center sure hope you do not mind Arlene.

It does explain the only difference in showmanship with AMHR and AMHA

Click below to the web site, than to the left go to showmanship, excellent article.

To the right after going to showmanship you can also just listen to the audio...

http://www.smallhorse.com/ExpertArticles/index.html

If this does not help, maybe others can chime in.

 

[Keri]

I think its the outside leg. I don't show showmanship, but there are quite a few "proffessional" amateurs and youth that do. Integrated over from pinto showing and such. And their horses always do it on the outside leg. Also, someone told me who was showing at nationals that the judges look at a specific leg (when deciding one person over another). But that's just word of mouth.

 

[wildoak]

I don't think the rule book specifies - in general, I think a clean, correct pivot on either leg is preferable to a sloppier turn. I don't do much showmanship myself, but I've spent a lot of time coaching and watching it as my daughter was the showmanship queen LOL. She won it at World & Nationals, and was Reserve/Top Ten a couple of times. I think your answer may vary according to the judge, but my understanding coming from QHs, (and the way she showed) has always been that the inside leg of the pivot is technically the correct leg.

Jan

 

[midnight star stables]

I show only AMHR and use the inside leg so I don't know how helpful I am

I've done well with what I'm doing, but it sounds like you are too!

IMO, I don't think it matters.

 

[albahurst]

The horse pivots on the back right leg- the direction the horse is turning. So, a person needs to be sure to set the horse correctly so that this leg can do the pivot. If a horse is pivoting on the back left leg, the legs are not set up properly.

I have received training in this discipline from a top US trainer. You can PM me if you want to know details.

 

[Al B]

It does not matter. Pick one. I have shown showmanship at the World Show level and asked multitudes of judges. Most don't care. They just want a nice clean pivot with no change of pivot leg. Those that expressed a preference were about 50/50. What ever is natural for the horse. Trainers likewise I'm sure have their opinions.

 

[alphahorses]

Inside leg - no question

You will never see a showmanship horse (or reigning or cutting horses) at AQHA or APHA World or Congress shows pivot on an outside leg.

If you go to utube and query AQHA showmanship, you'll see a clips of some of the winners from Congress and Worlds

 

[Jill]

This subject came up a few years ago, and if I remember right, it was about 50/50 of those who said inside leg and those who said outside leg. Some were pretty adamant on both sides

 

[MinisOutWest]

My two cents- what its worth. Showing Showmanship for over 30 yrs now, wow, that shows my age. When doing a pivot or a pull turn, unless it is specified by the rulebook for the back legs, I do not worry. What I do worry about is that my horse has forward motion when doing the 360 pivot or pull turn, the front legs should cross over, not cross under. No horse can spin /turn going backwards,, whether being rode or in showmanship, there has to be forward motion at all times. So in other words, the horses back right leg is planted because the left back leg has to come forward to turn with forward motion. AMHA just says do a 360 degree turn, AMHR does not specify either.

AL B- How was your CDE event? Glen Rose was CRAZY with the judges. But Dukey Doo and I won Hi Point All Around Amateur again. Will I see you all in Wichita Falls?

 

[hobbyhorse23]

What I do worry about is that my horse has forward motion when doing the 360 pivot or pull turn, the front legs should cross over, not cross under. No horse can spin /turn going backwards,, whether being ridden or in showmanship, there has to be forward motion at all times. So in other words, the horses back right leg is planted because the left back leg has to come forward to turn with forward motion.

Absolutely!! Reining horses pivot on the outside leg for a reason. Canter pirouettes in dressage are also done around what (from the ground) would be the outside leg. The same principles of balance and forward movement in place apply to pivots in Showmanship or Obstacle.

Leia

 

[Al B]

Didn't you two just say the opposite thing. Outside leg would be the left rear in a clockwise pivot.

 

[Kim]

Matt, I don't think that you will get one actual, right answer because judging in Showmanship, like in any event, is subjective.

That being said, however, my view is that you will never get marked down if you pivot on the inside leg but you might if you pivot on the outside leg. (In reviewing some of the responses, there may be some differences in terminology as to what is the 'inside' leg and what is the 'outside' leg. When I say 'inside' leg, I mean the leg that is at the inside of the turn, that being the right rear leg in a clockwise Showmanship pivot on the haunches.)

Every judge will judge Showmanship a bit differently and place emphasis on different areas. For example, I had a judge (who has not judged Worlds yet) this past summer mark me down at a local show for holding my lead in a loop rather than holding it folded. I mentioned this during a discussion with a judge (who has judged Worlds many times) at a subsequent show and he thought that that was ridiculous and that that first judge clearly was not "in the know" as to how to judge Showmanship. That was her opinion, however, and I will keep it in mind if I show under her in the future. Another area of disagreement is whether a chain on the lead should be used. I have been told by more than one top Worlds judge that they pay no attention one way or the other, but I would not at all be surprised if it's important to others.

With respect to pivoting, I certainly don't think that all judges will look specifically for what leg a horse is pivoting on. Some do, absolutely, but the degree that you will get marked down for using the wrong leg will vary judge to judge, I'm sure.

In the big horse world certainly the inside leg is the "correct" leg, as explained by MinisOutWest. So some judges with extensive horse experience may actually look for that - certainly some do - whereas you might find judges, particularily those whose horse experience is limited to Miniatures, who don't really care one way or the other.

Anyway, to conclude, I would be extremely surprised if ANY judge marked you down for pivoting on the inside (right) leg because how could that possibly be "wrong", whereas SOME judges MIGHT mark you down for pivoting on the outside (left) leg because in the big horse world, that tends to be considered wrong.

Don't forget that some patterns might call for a partial counter-clockwise pivot as part of the pattern. If that's the case, the inside leg would become the left leg.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Didn't you two just say the opposite thing. Outside leg would be the left rear in a clockwise pivot.

(In reviewing some of the responses, there may be some differences in terminology as to what is the 'inside' leg and what is the 'outside' leg. When I say 'inside' leg, I mean the leg that is at the inside of the turn, that being the right rear leg in a clockwise Showmanship pivot on the haunches.)

Good point. I used "outside leg" to mean the hind leg opposite from the handler on the ground since we were talking about showmanship pivots, but it would be the inside leg in regards to the direction of turn. Mea Culpa!

Every judge will judge Showmanship a bit differently and place emphasis on different areas. For example, I had a judge (who has not judged Worlds yet) this past summer mark me down at a local show for holding my lead in a loop rather than holding it folded. I mentioned this during a discussion with a judge (who has judged Worlds many times) at a subsequent show and he thought that that was ridiculous and that that first judge clearly was not "in the know" as to how to judge Showmanship.

In 4-H we were taught NEVER to loop our rope in any in-hand class as it would tighten around our hands if the horse bolted. Folding was always considered correct for showmanship and this came from world level APHA/AQHA/Pinto judges.

Matt, I apologize for replying when I was not your target audience!

I hope you'll forgive me. It just drives me nuts when mini judges do things completely opposite from the rest of the horse world and then claim that the OTHER people are ignorant.

Pet peeve.

Leia

 

[wildoak]

It just drives me nuts when mini judges do things completely opposite from the rest of the horse world and then claim that the OTHER people are ignorant.

Yep

Jan

 

[MiniMaid]

(Not on world level,jsyk.)

But,I think it really dosent matter. As long as it is actually a pivot,not just a circle.

 

[Kim]

Every judge will judge Showmanship a bit differently and place emphasis on different areas. For example, I had a judge (who has not judged Worlds yet) this past summer mark me down at a local show for holding my lead in a loop rather than holding it folded. I mentioned this during a discussion with a judge (who has judged Worlds many times) at a subsequent show and he thought that that was ridiculous and that that first judge clearly was not "in the know" as to how to judge Showmanship.

In 4-H we were taught NEVER to loop our rope in any in-hand class as it would tighten around our hands if the horse bolted. Folding was always considered correct for showmanship and this came from world level APHA/AQHA/Pinto judges.

Leia

Yes, I used this example to illustrate differences in opinion among judges. It is common knowledge (and common sense) that generally when handling horses you should not wrap the lead around your hand as it is a safety issue. This does not change the fact that the current trend in AQHA Showmanship (and probably other circuits, too) is to hold the lead in a large loop. Showmanship is all about trends and while many judges pay attention to the trends, there will always be some that either do not pay attention or do not care for certain trends to such an extent that they will actually mark you down for adhering to them.