Overpopulation of miniature horses who's to blame?

[Little Bits]

The over population of minature horses who in your oppinion is to blame?

Selling uncastrated horses. Registered or pet qaulity, with or without papers who's responsablitliy should it be that the animal does not go out and reproduce? The buyer or the breeder. I know many people sell with geld contracts, but it only takes one time to produce a foal.

Does the blame lie in uneducated people getting these horse, or to the people who sell them?

 

[BannerBrat]

The over population of minature horses who in your oppinion is to blame?

Selling uncastrated horses. Registered or pet qaulity, with or without papers who's responsablitliy should it be that the animal does not go out and reproduce? The buyer or the breeder. I know many people sell with geld contracts, but it only takes one time to produce a foal.

Does the blame lie in uneducated people getting these horse, or to the people who sell them?

I think that this has become more of a problem in mini's because what can you do with them? Well anyone can put a stallion and a mare together. I think that if more Mini's had a job and were trained then the problem may solve itself. Driving is something to really promote with these guys. Gelding are very undervalued... because they can't breed.

I think people need to look at their breeding programs realistically and not breed anything that isn't quality. I don't care what type they are if their conformation is not very good than they should not be bred. I think we need to stop overlooking faults and be extremely picky in what gets bred, nothing less.

It comes down to the fact that you can't tell people what to do with their animals. You can only try to educate and do the best you can do.

Most of the people that are to 'blame' will never read this.

 

[Tab]

You could say that just about anyone who gets involved in breeding with the ultimate goal of making money. Not those whose love and passion revolve around horses and the betterment of the breed. People ought to realize you don't usually make money with horses; you lose it. How could the breeder who takes extreme care of how often and to whom he breeds be to blame?

I also agree with Ashley; people should only breed their best. I have one that I have decided that I will not breed. It is not that she poor quality. She is a lovely mover and has an extremely gentle temperament. Her disposition and build would make someone an amazing companion and driving horse. There are horses of breeding quality, some of performance quality, and all of them make amazing companions.

You also have to admit a miniature horse foal is something of amazement... and a lot of people don't realize that mini foals are only "that tiny" for about a month.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I know there are those that will blame backyard breeders. Not saying they aren't to blame, but there are also some big known farms out there that just breed soo many, like 50+ foals every year. They may be better quality but thats still another horse, breed fewer and maybe your farm will be in more high demand.

Personally I like to show over breeding anyways. I decided I still would like to find that really nice stallion and if they don't turn out that way thats fine I'll geld them and make them do something and make them into a really nice all-around performance gelding.

The problem is geldings are not in high demand. So not too many people will geld. Fortuantly I'm happy to say that both registeries sees this problem and give incentives in gelding them.

Also its a matter of finding new people out there, and I do think new people are coming in. We just can't sell to ourselves anymore and also people are switching over to AMHR/ASPC and selling there AMHR only or AMHA/AMHR horses.

 

[Sue_C.]

I know there are those that will blame backyard breeders. Not saying they aren't to blame, but there are also some big known farms out there that just breed soo many, like 50+ foals every year. They may be better quality but thats still another horse, breed fewer and maybe your farm will be in more high demand.

Gosh, I hate that term "backyard breeder". I bred horses in my back yard for years, of several different breeds through the years, and many of my "backyard bred" horses have gone on to levels of both halter and performance far exceeding my expectations, while many "big breeder" horses are now sitting in someone else's backyards.

And yes, why should we small breeders take the flack, when it is the larger farms pumping out foal after foal after foal...year after year...who gets the "Oh but THEY are a BIG-TIME-FARM", they only breed the BEST to the BEST...well, I have seen a lot of the "best's" foals, and let me tell you, it just ain't so... Having more horses to breed, doesn't make them better...nope...it doesn't.

Gets my dander up, yup, it certainly does.

 

[~Lisa~]

Who is to blame...well I for one can admit I had a hand in it. I am a bit to blame and need to accept and take responsibility for it.

We can all say breed the best to the best, breed what will win-the issue is the best doesnt always win and the best doesnt always breed true to end up with the best. Lets not forget Best can be very subjective- I have never yet heard anyone say hey look at this ill conformed, unbalanced horse I bought to breed... yet many of them are out there

More importantly the reality is the majority of minis out there are bought and sold to pet homes. Nothing wrong with that a pet home can be a wonderful one! But those looking at a small lawn ornament pet to be loved and played with do not want to spend thousands for it.

I bred several foals over the years some nice, some avg and some not so nice just like any other breeder out there. However for me and for me alone I no longer wanted to be part of the problem. I like Tab said lost alot of money most breeders do. I went thru heartache and happiness but in the end I could not just blame it on that breeder or this breeder. I had to accept the reality that ME -I am part of the problem and while I can not change the world I can change my little corner of it.

We now have 5 minis-3 are geldings the other 2 mares - 3 Shetlands all geldings and no plans on breeding ever again. I do miss having the foals around not much cuter then a new foal but for me and only speaking for me it was the right decision and one I feel good about.

 

[dvk]

I second EVERYTHING that Lisa has put forth !! All of the following comments and statements ARE my personal opinions and NOT a condemnation of any one individual , group or association !!

I started , as many of us did , with 1 . Then another for breeding , and so on , till reality set in and I realized that breeding for sale is a non-profitable venture for almost all but the breeders who have bottomless pockets and/or are not intent on justifying each & every bred product . My mind set now is , if I breed , I plan on keeping that animal until either I or it passes to a better place ! Just because they come out of the show ring with a blue , grand or champion ribbon doesn' t entitle them to reproduce as well as those that have historic OR recent winning bloodlines .

There will never be a time when all owners are responsible , caring , honest and willing to forgo dollars for integrity . I mourn for all those poor animals that live in less than loving conditions and all those people who for lack of $, time , physical and emotional resources , are able to improve that animals plight .

OK....... FLAME AWAY if you must .

 

[Matt73]

Gosh, I hate that term "backyard breeder". I bred horses in my back yard for years, of several different breeds through the years, and many of my "backyard bred" horses have gone on to levels of both halter and performance far exceeding my expectations, while many "big breeder" horses are now sitting in someone else's backyards.

And yes, why should we small breeders take the flack, when it is the larger farms pumping out foal after foal after foal...year after year...who gets the "Oh but THEY are a BIG-TIME-FARM", they only breed the BEST to the BEST...well, I have seen a lot of the "best's" foals, and let me tell you, it just ain't so... Having more horses to breed, doesn't make them better...nope...it doesn't.

Gets my dander up, yup, it certainly does.

Me too. There are plenty of huge breeding farms that are as much or more to blame. Not a mini breeder, but this is an example of a "backyard breeder": http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/index.html A small operation that breeds international quality sport horses.

A person can, actually, be very knowledgable and breed, on a tiny scale, great horses. For the huge breeding farms there are a big number of sub-par horses. Not all of those 50+ broodmares produce great foals; the majority are far from it. You only see the best on the websites. I'm not putting down big operations. I'm just saying that with a large number of quality horses (or not) come a large number of not so great foals.

 

[minimomNC]

Who is at fault? The person who breeds 200 mares, lets them all foal unattended, hoping that if at least half live, they can sell them for $500 or more each and make at least $50,000 a year without putting a penny into the health and well being of the mares, stallions or foals. Next at fault, the people who do not bother to get educated before they buy the worm infested, sick foals from the above breeder and then decide they can make money by breeding their $500 horses at 2 years old and raise money makers. Its a never ending cycle.

 

[kaykay]

Anyone who has ever produced a foal has to take some responsibility. I try to give back by helping horse rescues big and small and doing my part. We only produce a few foals per year and try our best to put them in great homes but nothing is perfect.

I will say it is getting better as when I first started it was the norm to see farms breeding 50-100 plus foals per year. Most of those farms have now cut back and stopped producing such big numbers. Not just because of todays economy but also because as the "exoticness" (is that a word? LOL) of the miniature faded so did the huge prices they were getting. I often wonder if those original breeders back in the heyday now wish they had gelded more to keep prices up longer?

I did not come in at the real height of prices, but do remember when I started almost 10 years ago a really nice producing breeding stallion that was amha/amhr was a minimum of 5000.00. After that first year I watched that steadily go down.

We have only sold 2 intact colts with our farm name over the years as we are big on gelding. I have seen the value of geldings going up and quite frankly find them really easy to sell.

 

[ruffian]

I'm not sure there is an overpopulation of miniatures compared to other horse breeds. It think the issue is the economy, not overpopulation.

But what folks put on here is right, someone buys a cute colt, decides to "MAKE SOME MONEY" and finds a cheap mare or 2 at the auction, wow we're in business. I don't know of any other breed where new owners, inexperienced horse people, or a non-horse person decides to buy and keep intact a stallion, much less 3 - 12! It's the nature of the breed, true miniatures are usually easy to handle, easy to breed, and cute as heck. So just about anybody can and will decide to get into the breeding business.

 

[RhineStone]

I don't know of any other breed where new owners, inexperienced horse people, or a non-horse person decides to buy and keep intact a stallion, much less 3 - 12! It's the nature of the breed, true miniatures are usually easy to handle, easy to breed, and cute as heck.

My vet was telling me today that he knows of a mini stallion that someone is willing to give to a good home because they just can't handle it. He thinks if they would allow him to geld it, that it might be easier to handle. Although he has been our vet for some time, his general opinion is that minis are obnoxious (not ours, but others he has to deal with). He stated that is not reflective of the breed, but of the majority of owners who treat them like dogs instead of horses.

Unless you have a purpose for the resulting foal besides $$, CUT THE STUD!

 

[jegray21]

I'm not sure there is an overpopulation of miniatures compared to other horse breeds. It think the issue is the economy, not overpopulation.

But what folks put on here is right, someone buys a cute colt, decides to "MAKE SOME MONEY" and finds a cheap mare or 2 at the auction, wow we're in business. I don't know of any other breed where new owners, inexperienced horse people, or a non-horse person decides to buy and keep intact a stallion, much less 3 - 12! It's the nature of the breed, true miniatures are usually easy to handle, easy to breed, and cute as heck. So just about anybody can and will decide to get into the breeding business.

I agree that the economy has a hand in the issue. I also agree that due to the nature of the breed they do seem to end up in bad situations with people who know nothing about horses. The cost to feed is lower meaning it is easier for people to get in over their heads. Personally as a new mini owner my experience purchasing my first mini was based only on location. I really wanted to see the horse before I bought it. I do think that many of the colts the breeder had should have been gelded. It seems like it is very easy to register a stallion with AMHR. I have friesians and my stallion had to go through 90 days of testing before he got a registration number..he did not pass so leaving him a stallion was pointless, none of his babies would have been worth anything.

If you are trying to improve the quality of the miniature horse make it harder to register stallions. Just a thought...the future of the breed is really in the breeders hands. If you do not think your colt is breeding quality geld him. Prevent amateurs from even having a choice.

 

[ruffian]

'If you are trying to improve the quality of the miniature horse make it harder to register stallions. Just a thought...the future of the breed is really in the breeders hands. If you do not think your colt is breeding quality geld him. Prevent amateurs from even having a choice. "

I've had 2 gelding parties in the last year - one was a National Champion and others were proven show horses. But it's soooo much quieter and they make fantastic show horses now!

 

[SampleMM]

Personally, I feel that part of the problem is not gelding. There are so many colts out there being sold as stallion prospects that should have been gelded. For some reason, miniature horse breeders do not geld like they do in the big breeds. I feel a colt would have to be very close to perfection to justify it being a stallion. I'd rather geld it and keep it as opposed to someone buying it and breeding it with my farm name attached to it.

Please note---This is just my personal opinion after being in the horse world for more than 25 years.

 

[horsefeather]

I agree with a lot of what has already been said. A few years ago I was part of the problem also. I quit breeding for several reasons. Having said that, actually I don't 'blame' the big breeders any more than I do the smaller breeders. Read the sales page. (I am NOT picking on any one farm or person, just my observation!) So many of them say 1 of 2 things. 1. Need to sell to make room for my new foals, or 2. Selling mares, bred back to so-and-so for a 2011 foal. Mare has foal on her can sell as a 3 in 1 package. I personally feel if you breed ANY mares for at least 2 yrs. you are also part of the problem. No foals to purchase?? Great! buy the yearlings and 2 yr. olds and cut the stallions!!

Do I think this will ever happen, Nope!

Because it seems that everyone who is breeding says "I'm not the problem, so and so is." As far as the economy goes, the price of minis was coming down before the economy started falling, although, it is partly to blame. And, to to those who will say great quality minis are still bringing big prices--mostly it's the 'well off' person doing the buying (those that can afford paying a huge price then leaving it with the trainer) or misinformed people who believe every word the seller is telling them and doesn't ask or look around to see if what they are being told is really the truth. OK, that's my 2 cents worth.

Pam

 

[miniwhinny]

Gosh, I hate that term "backyard breeder". I bred horses in my back yard for years, of several different breeds through the years, and many of my "backyard bred" horses have gone on to levels of both halter and performance far exceeding my expectations, while many "big breeder" horses are now sitting in someone else's backyards.

And yes, why should we small breeders take the flack, when it is the larger farms pumping out foal after foal after foal...year after year...who gets the "Oh but THEY are a BIG-TIME-FARM", they only breed the BEST to the BEST...well, I have seen a lot of the "best's" foals, and let me tell you, it just ain't so... Having more horses to breed, doesn't make them better...nope...it doesn't.

Gets my dander up, yup, it certainly does.

HAHAH don't think I've come across anyone on this board yet that I agree with more than Sue C. lol That was so very well put.

:yeah

Who's responsible...every single person on this board or off it that's produced a baby this year - PERIOD ! And like Sue, I'm tired of hearing that backyard vs. well I can't stop breeding...my horses are royally bred. Give me a break ! It's easy for people to point fingers but this "breeding for the betterment of the breed" is hogwash. You're still breeding

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Lots of great points brought up. And I personally agree it's everyone's fault, including mine. Although I've never (to date) let a baby colt leave the property that wasn't gelded (I do really try hard to promote geldings) I'm sure the time will come when I do. And everytime I breed a mare I second guess myself and the reasoning behind it. I often wish we had a "test" like some of the european countries do for the breeding stallions. You don't pass the conformation test, you don't breed. I also can't wait for the dwarf test. My hope is that will also reduce the number of horses being used for breeding. Kind of takes the decision making process away on some of the horses. Or maybe not. Maybe it will just mean more unregistered horses are bred.

I don't have the answer, but if we all just bred 10 percent fewer horses each year it would be a step in the right direction.

 

[Marty]

I know someone who has a two little mixed breed dogs of some kind who has been breeding them on every heat cycle for years all their lives. I feel so sorry for that little worn out female. The owner says how much she loves her and what a good "breeder" she is. These dogs have never seen a vet ever, let alone the puppies. They are wormy, nasty parasite flea infested inside and out and in horrible shape. She sells the puppies for $15-$20 and counts on it as income to pay her bills and that is why the law doesn't do a thing about it. She "needs" these animals to breed and sell to feed herself.

And yes, why should we small breeders take the flack, when it is the larger farms pumping out foal after foal after foal...year after year...

That's right Sue and I'll tell you all who's really to blame here. It is not you or me who pops out a foal or two every few years or so and takes full responsibility of horse ownership seriously.

Its these people who are located all over the United States in every state in the union that buy up tons of horses every week at the local auctions for $25.00 to continue to grow their herds bigger and bigger and putting any two ends together that may or may not fit. Colts are breeding yearlings, so what? They don't know a darn thing about the breed and they certainly don't care, but what does that matter? Their horses are starving, wormy as sin, foundered and crippled up all over the place, have never seen a vet let alone a farrier and they get the whole family to ride the begeezus out of them too on top of it till they drop to be sure they are good and broke to ride to help make a sale too. They provide no food, no shelter, no daily hands on care of any kind, live in garbage they call farms and left to do their thing as long as they can until they are left out there to die on their own. But yet they have 100+ head of them in deplorable conditions who constantly reproduce with stallions running all over the place with all the mares and fillies and count on the sales of their foals for their income so they don't have to work and now with the foals that survived they have over 200 of them on the place and the cycle never ends. Then they in turn sell them to more people who do the same. They take and take and take from these little ones and never give them any kind of care in return.

These are the kind of people who are causing the problem. And there are way too many of them in every breed of horse and no way to stop any of it. I really feel there should be some kind of test people have to pass in order to breed animals and maybe have a license or something to regulate this stuff already.

 

[CharlesFamily]

I blame......THE HORSES!

Yup - it is their fault! First, due to their small size, it is easier for people to afford several minis as compared to one large horse. You also need less room, so people can quickly accumulate a "herd of minis" on what might at most support 2 full-sized horses. Also, because of their size, they seem to draw a lot of inexperienced people. They are definitely easier to handle and those that would never in a million years consider handling and breeding a full-sized stud have no problem doing it with the minis. So pretty soon you have a stallion running with a bunch of mares and popping babies out every year.

Second, the foals are just so darn cute!

I mean, how can you not look at a foal and say, "Oh, I want one!!!!" Even knowing what I know, I have that knee-jerk reaction. And they don't stay babies very long!

Third, because you can't ride them, many people think the only good thing to do with them is breed them and try and sell the babies to make money.

I first got into minis in 1993. The first mini I bought, of course, was a stallion. I just wanted a mini to play with because I had always wanted one. I had always had full-sized horses. I lucked out, going into this not knowing anything because he was actually registered AMHR. About 6 months after I bought him, I visited a farm and saw their foals. That was it! I was hooked and I now knew what I needed - a mare!

So less than a year after purchasing my stallion, I was off to an auction to purchase my first mare. Now, the saying is that God protects the ignorant and that was the truth! I also think I did better than many inexperienced owners do because I had my big horse experience. But I still just got darned lucky.

This was before internet, so there wasn't much information to be had. And coming from a big horse background might have made things better because I decided that all of my horses would "do" something besides breed. So we began showing - even my broodmares were trained to drive. Even with all of that, I only ever had three foals before I decided I needed to downsize in order to start my own family. All of this happened between 1993-1998. I was all of 19 years old when I started on that venture.

Fast forward to now and I hope I have gotten smarter. I knew I wanted miniatures for my girls to experience the joy of owning, working and showing them. But thanks to this board, I had been educated about the troubles facing the mini population. The first time I had minis was the height of the "mini revolution" and everything called "mini" was selling like hotcakes - especially if it was a mare and a colored mare to boot! It was very eye-opening to discover what had happened to minis during my time away.

BUT - what I also found was that more people were showing! The quality of minis has improved to such a drastic degree. The horses I showed before and won repeatedly with at open and registry shows wouldn't even make it in the gate. I was very impressed.

Anyway, sorry for the long story, but I wanted to let everyone here know that everything you say does NOT fall on deaf ears. The minis I now have are geldings. I love my geldings, I am excited to see geldings gaining a small foothold in this industry. I will only own geldings and will do my part to see that people understand there is more to minis than making babies!

Barbara