Now I get it. . .

[Flying minis]

I am new to minis, and have read with interest all the discussions regarding shetland influence, especially in the minis. But I've never really seen what people were talking about - probably because of the shows I go to, and in my area, the shetland influence is minimal. But I went to Nationals to watch, and I have to say - now I get it. I was watching an over halter class, and thought to myself - they're all mini saddlebreds. Now don't get me wrong, I love saddlebreds, and I love Shetlands, but part of the reason I moved out of Arabs years ago is that the Arabs (and Morgans) decided that action was needed above all and started to move toward the saddlebred "look" and action. Now I see how it is happening with the minis. When the champions lined up Friday night, it was really obvious where the breed is going. . . whether for good or bad.

I'm not taking anything away from horses who won - were they quality animals? Obviously. But Friday night, aside from the gelding, it would have been hard to know whether the champion lineup was from a mini show or a pony show.

If you had one of the champions, I'm not by any means saying your horse did not deserve to be there - just that it was definately a glimpse into the future of the breed, at least in the way it is progressing right now.

 

[midnight star stables]

I just wanted to mention that for the past few years (5-10+) most of the "Grand Champion" horses at Nationals, especially in the over division, have been ASPC/AMHR or at least have ASPC breeding. This trend has been slowly coming for many years. And I don't think the judges are looking at the horses' pedigrees, but rather the quality of the animal in front of them.

Not all ASPC/AMHR horses are God's gift, but some certainly have improved our bred. Some are a bit "extreme"....

At the end of the day, most of the horses at Nationals were gorgeous!

 

[Flying minis]

I agree, most of the horses were gorgeous - and not taking anything away from their quality. Just an observation, and as I said, I'm new, so it was interesting for me to see it. I'm sure it's not a new trend, it just really was brought home to me when watching Nationals.

Overall though, I am truly amazed at the quality of horses - halter and performance, at this level - it was amazing to watch!

 

[susanne]

The definition of a miniature horse (AMHR, anyway) is one that is under 38 inches. The AMHR and AMHA breed standards state nothing to suggest the "Shetland look" to be undesirable.

May the best horse win. If that best horse shows a strong Shetland influence or is AMHR/ASPC, so be it.

 

[Jill]

Well the good news is if you think you see what's winning, you can go get something that fits the bill if thats what you want to do. I probably do want to add some <34" aspc/amhr/amha one day, but for now, I find the look and quality I want in <34" amha/amhr horses

My desire to add undersized aspc to my program has actually decreased over the past 2yrs. The horses with aspc breeding can be such eye candy but the look is now so common. It's actually made my appreciation for outstanding minis amha/amhr deepen and my resolve to keep that focus has grown stronger.

 

[ohmt]

Susanne, I think you have definitely said it best! The quality of the over divisions and even the 32"-34" classes was SUPERB (the other classes too, but I was so amazed with those taller classes). At one point I turned on the video feed and had no idea what class they were on, but after watching a few minutes was certain in was an over open halter class. Then the Champion mare was called and they said for the 32"-34" division! I absolutely LOVED the proportions on those mares, just fantastic. Our miniature horses are finally starting to have the proportions of their larger counterparts. That is a GREAT thing.

 

[Riverdance]

I have said it before, and I will say it again. If I wanted to breed ponies, I would. I just have never figured out why AMHR wants to change the Miniature breed. Yes, I know they are a pony club, and I know that if a AMHR judge has a choice, the pony always wins. One of the reasons why I do not show AMHR anymore.

Now, unfortunately, AMHA is looking that way too. Yes, the up headed look of the Shetland is very pretty, but what drew us all to the Miniature breed in the first place and not to ponies? Pretty soon, there will no longer be a Miniature horse, but just a miniature pony.

Yes, they are pretty to look at, but they ARE NOT MINIATURES. (just my opinion)

 

[Minimor]

How can a small pony not be a Miniature, when Miniatures are 34" and under and 38" and under, depending which registry you go with?

I don't see AMHR changing the Miniature breed--the Miniature breed has always been anything that measures in to the height limit set by the registry.

I've got two Minis here--a gelding and a mare--that do not have Shetland papers. Neither of them has an actual Shetland on the papers for at least 5 generations. If I were to take them out in the AMHR ring you would almost certainly guess them to be Shetlands even though they aren't. Certainly no one would doubt me if I were to point them out as Shetlands to visitors. When I know that one can get Shetland type Minis from a non-Shetland breeding program (by non-Shetland I mean a program that doesn't use ASPC ponies at all--obviously I know that Minis are based on the Shetlands!) I simply don't agree that the Shetland influence is making drastic changes to the breed. The breed is evolving anyway, and would be even without the Shetlands being hardshipped in now.

 

[dtdminis]

I thought that the overall quality of the horses at this year's Nationals was exceptional. The best yet. I applaud all of the breeders who produce these spectacular animals - both Over AND Under!!!

As far as mini vs "pony", I know it's a topic which will never be resolved. I know only 2 absolute truths ... first, minis are technically ponies because they are equines who are under 14.2 H and second, minis were "bred down" from shetland ponies.

 

[dtdminis]

The breed is evolving anyway, and would be even without the Shetlands being hardshipped in now.

And has been evolving for generations! I don't know anyone who wants a mini that looks like the ones that were shown when the registry first opened.

How can a small pony not be a Miniature, when Miniatures are 34" and under and 38" and under, depending which registry you go with?

Exactly. Type does not make a mini - height does. Bloodlines don't even make a mini. If a mini goes over, AMHA or AMHR, it is no longer considered a mini.

I don't see AMHR changing the Miniature breed--

I do. But it's been evolving for years and will probably continue to change until it can become a breed based on bloodlines not height.

the Miniature breed has always been anything that measures in to the height limit set by the registry.
And that's the bottom line, isn't it?

 

[ohmt]

I guess I've never really understood the reasoning of not liking the shetland influence because the resulting horses "are not miniatures". If they are 38" or under, then they are miniature, unless you do not deal with AMHR at all (in that case, what are those horses that go over 34" but are the result of two AMHA only registered horses?). I have horses that range in mature height of 27.25"-36". I love them all dearly and I strive to produce the best horses I can, always, no matter what the size. The beauty of the miniature horse is that because they are a height breed and both registries used to have open books, there is a very large variety and different types-something for everyone. I look at the shetland influence and see a better conformed horse (not always, but with careful breeding, yes) and am grateful for what they have done for the 'breed'. Again, every person is an individual with different tastes. Buy, breed, and show what you like. There are many who do not like 34"-38" horses and that is just fine. There will always be a market for high quality 34" and under horses. I, myself, prefer 34" and under, but LOVE the proportions and athleticism of the 'B' sized horses that have been winning at Nationals in recent years. I will be incorporating that type into my breeding program, but will still strive to produce the smallest, high quality horses I can-I think to do that I need to start taller and work my way down. I think the best part is that those horses with the conformation I'd like my smaller minis to eventually have are not that far above in height so it is plausible for me to achieve my goals before I'm too old to do so.

The reason I don't have straight shetland ponies is because they are over 38" so I can not register them with AMHR, therefore they are not miniature.

 

[dtdminis]

Great post ohmt.

 

[disneyhorse]

Those who don't like the "shetland look" are always very vocal about it. However, there must be A LOT of people out there who LOVE the "shetland look" because obviously breeders are breeding them, exhibitors are buying them, and judges are picking them in the classes.

I think in America, that's the direction that people go for the most part.

The American Shetland pony does NOT look like the Shetlands they originated from. They are lighter boned and more upright. So does it not make sense that the American Miniature Horse would head the same way???

In the United States... a lot of our "versions" of breeds in Europe and such develop to be leggier and more upright with more action. The American Percheron draft horse? More action, more leg, more upright.

Friesians... we tend to go for the "modern" type versus the "baroque" style that I have seen over here...

Even in dogs... most of our dogs are bred with a little less bone than you might find in Europe.

Sooooooo.... yes, as the breed "matures" the "modern" versions are usually more upright, more leg, more action. It must be a general American aesthetic.

That's not to say there isn't a dog or horse for everyone, and that you can't find more "baroque" or "foundation" style horses out there.

Andrea

 

[wingnut]

Can someone share a picture of the "Shetland" look that is being referred to? And what Miniature style is the preferred by some? This newbie is confused .

 

[Tremor]

I only skimmed this thread some, but I thought I would post my opinion and a question.

I LOVE miniatures, and have had them since I was ten. That will be seven years in November and December (bought both months.) I love them. I do. Everybody knows it. If I didn't, I would sell them. Lord knows it'd help financially and make my dad proud.

But when I see a picture of a shetland it makes me want to ditch my herd and scoop up one! If not a shetland, then a B class miniature with shetland influence.

Why? They're showy.

I guess I'll use disneyhorse's herd (past and present) as an example. I LOVE the action that I see in Persia, Quake, and Diego. I love the height, head, and conformation. Beautiful. Nuff' said. Very jealous.

I like where I see the shetland breeding going. Miniatures? I'd rather see them heading more in a shetland route than the "short" route. I don't like short miniatures. I have four of them, so I'm speaking from experience here. I like my other three, 35'' miniatures. (One is a 2011 filly, but she's estimated to be 34-35'')

I'd love to buy a shetland mare or gelding. I could imagine it now. I'd like to think that she'd resemble disneyhorse's Persia. Maybe that'll be a goal for the next coming years.

I'd rather the Miniature horse breed go further towards the shetland influence than some novelty item. You all know what I mean. Pomeranians anybody? I'm not sure if you guys remember this or not, but dog breeds went through a stage where they were bred down during the 1900's. I still personally believe that part of the miniature horse community is still following suit with what older breeders were trying to do, make a smaller horse (yet correct)

That's not saying that I don't think that I'd be able to find a miniature with leg action. I have one. His name is Pete and he's a coming two year old. He's also out in my dry lot. I can't wait to see him in front of a cart. But.....his top side has shetland influence. Its a couple generations back, but it sure does show through.

I'll keep my flame suit off for now. I have an opinion, and I'm hoping that you guys will respect that.

I, like Wingnut, would like to see pictures of what AMHR wants, and what the smaller breeders want.

 

[Wings]

In Australia we don't have quite the same influence from the American Shetlands as you guys do simply because there are less of them available.

We have, however, bred down from Welsh, Arab Ponies and Australian Ponies to constantly try to get that classic "horse in miniature" look that I believe the breed strives so heavily for. One of my favourite mares here is about 1/4 welsh pony, she comes in at 36" tall and I intend to put an American Shetland stallion over her eventually as I feel the resulting offspring will really benefit my breeding program.

 

[Tremor]

In Australia we don't have quite the same influence from the American Shetlands as you guys do simply because there are less of them available.

We have, however, bred down from Welsh, Arab Ponies and Australian Ponies to constantly try to get that classic "horse in miniature" look that I believe the breed strives so heavily for. One of my favourite mares here is about 1/4 welsh pony, she comes in at 36" tall and I intend to put an American Shetland stallion over her eventually as I feel the resulting offspring will really benefit my breeding program.

Would you be willing to share some pictures of your mare? (I saw her page on your website)

I love Welsh's and Aussie Ponies!

 

[Wings]

Would you be willing to share some pictures of your mare? (I saw her page on your website)

I love Welsh's and Aussie Ponies!

Certainly

Her dam is the Welsh line and was put to a Rowdy lined stallion.

Fantasy as a bub:



A lot of people don't pic her as a mini foal by that shot.

Paddock condition not long after the birth of her foal:



And a few weeks after that:



She has a length of leg that I adore, a good neck and her movement is to die for with long sweeping strides. Her foal scooped up those qualities but has kept to her dad's under 34" height at this time.

With open stud books or the ability to hardship anything within height I think it's important to keep breeding the big horse type down into the miniatures. I'll certainly take advantage of the American Shetlands over here when i think they'll benefit and in the future I would love to add an Arabian Pony into the mix and breed down from that.

 

[Tremor]

Certainly

Her dam is the Welsh line and was put to a Rowdy lined stallion.

Fantasy as a bub:

View attachment 3685

A lot of people don't pic her as a mini foal by that shot.

Paddock condition not long after the birth of her foal:

View attachment 3683

And a few weeks after that:

View attachment 3684

She has a length of leg that I adore, a good neck and her movement is to die for with long sweeping strides. Her foal scooped up those qualities but has kept to her dad's under 34" height at this time.

With open stud books or the ability to hardship anything within height I think it's important to keep breeding the big horse type down into the miniatures. I'll certainly take advantage of the American Shetlands over here when i think they'll benefit and in the future I would love to add an Arabian Pony into the mix and breed down from that.

Wow!

I really like her!

I love how her back is shorter than her neck. I haven't seen many minis with necks longer than their backs. So jealous of that feature!

I really like her. Have you ever thought of breeding her to your Gold Melody Boy bred stallion?

 

[midnight star stables]

Can someone share a picture of the "Shetland" look that is being referred to? And what Miniature style is the preferred by some? This newbie is confused .

Hi there, I have two very special mares in my barn that would likely answer your question.

The first is Joy. She is a 2005 33" AMHR/AMHA and a proven show horse in both halter and driving. This mare has been known to be a little grumpy (

) but is very very special to me and give 110% for me every time.

The other is Dove. She is a 2010 36" AMHR/ASPC and also a proven show horse in halter. This mare, although extreme in type, has the best personality and is very very sweet. She is very willing to please and has that "puppy-dog" attitude with people... Just loves attention.

You can see the difference in their "looks" but note the size and age differences too.