New photo's - Color Help!

[MiniHoofBeats]

Ok here I go again lol...you all know Diva, appy bred filly just showing characteristics. Mom palomino appy, dad silver dapple w/blanket appy. Here she is almost a month grown out where I clipped her so this should be her normal coat.

Any idea on color? She is staying a chocolate so I am now leaning toward chocolate palomino. She has no dapples whatsoever so i don't see how chocolate silver dapple could apply but i'm open to hearing suggestions yet again!!!

thanks!!

(horrible nose shot but shows her nose color!)

Well you can't see it well in these photo's but she has darker points (legs, head). Clipper died so i didn't get to see if she has a faint dorsal effected by silver or if it was baby countershading...lol...

what a puzzle!

 

[KrisP]

Silver dapples don't always show the dapples, trust me on that, I've got a LOT of them here and right now only Miss Smoke and Miss Ming a ling are actually showing any dapples at all. The silver dapples can range from light to very dark, they're all variations of the blacks with the silver gene.

I say she's a silver dapple.

krisp

 

[crponies]

Yeah, she looks like a silver dapple to me to. I actually like the term black silver or silver black better because it is not as confusing/describes what it actually is better in my opinion.

 

[Meavey]

Yeah, she looks like a silver dapple to me to. I actually like the term black silver or silver black better because it is not as confusing/describes what it actually is better in my opinion.

Very true!

She is a silver dapple or better called silver black, or silver smokey black.

you can test her for cream.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Dapple is a description, not a colour, in the same way as "sooty"

"Chocolate" Palomino does not exist, so she is not that!!

An animal may well look "chocolate" Palomino but what it actually is is Palomino + Sooty.

A Silver Black does not have to have dapples, in fact it quite often does not have dapples, which is why the colour should not be called Silver "dapple" but Silver Black + (if relevant ) Dapple.

After all, would you call a Silver Bay a Silver Dapple??

No, you describe the dilute (Silver ) and the base colour (Bay)

I think your filly is a Smoky Black- I am not actually 100% sure about the Silver bit!!!

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I say she is silver she may or may not carry the creme gene do you have a pic of her dam to post? The reason I ask is so many horses are called palomino that are not.

I dont think you can "guess" smokey black by the color you cant tell visually at all. I have had smokey blacks born here (out of a cremello mare so NO DOUBT) and a couple were black black the true non fading deep black one was a bit of a odd shade so no way you can tell just by looking IMO.

As for the dapple part even that changes during the year sometimes Ravens gelding is very dapply and other times he is just silver with no dapples

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

I understand silver "dapples" change a lot throughout the seasons and may or may not show their dapples. I used to own a silver dapple pinto and I know very well how they change from a clipped coat, to summer coat, to winter coat =)

See I am like rabbitzfizz - to me, "dapple" is a description, not a color...which is why I just can't get myself to call this filly a "silver dapple". Silver black or smokey black better suit what I am trying to call her but are either of those a registerable color? I am looking for what color to put her down as on her registration papers because right now she is registered as grulla and she doesn't appear grulla to me =)

Pic of mom:

Pic of dad:

Sire's parents are:

sire: not sure if he's Dun or Silver (NXS King's Rowdy Destroyer)

dam: black appaloosa (Westwind's Apache Maiden)

Dam's parents are:

sire: palomino appaloosa (Lucky Four Links Goldstrike)

dam: sorrel appaloosa (Stout's Red Wing)

Sorrel, black, palomino, chestnut, bay, silver are what make up the most of her background...lol

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

Ok I asked AMHA and AMHR what their opinions are per their recognized registration colors, so far I got an e-mail back from AMHR and they think she is a chestnut dapple w/flaxen mane/tail. Interesting!

 

[MeadowRidge Farm]

I have 2 two yr olds that look almost identicle to her, and I always referred to them a a silver dapple with a flaxen main and tail. Which is what I reg them as, and did send in very clear pics of them, not knowing either if this was correct, well, apparently it was as I got the registrations back with it on. Dont you just love this color genetics. Corinne

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Well, whatever else she is she is DEFINITELY not a "chestnut dapple"

Even the AMHR should surely know by now there is no such thing??

I mean it is very, very basic colour knowledge that Silver does not show on Red.

I thought we were trying to get better on colour knowledge, not go backwards

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

Well what if dad was a black based silver, put with mom a palomino out of a sorrel and palomino so mom is a red based palomino w/cream gene, right? Black base and red base can create chestnut, add the cream gene for the smokey black that was mentioned a few times...I still think red can be present, look at silver bays for instance, they're basically a bay/sorrel horse with silver modifier but they still show red.

It just doesn't make sense, I think the colors definitely need to be re-thought. A horse that is not silver colored should not be called a silver dapple (I don't have anything against silver dapple btw I love the color) but it just baffles me as to why you would call a horse that LOOKS brown, SILVER???

BTW - AMHR clearly states that they represent a horses color by APPEARANCE, not by GENETICS - just f.y.i. =)

Anyone else with me on this? I simply cannot get myself to call this girl a "silver dapple" when she isn't even silver and I honestly dont know how half of you can settle having a brown/red/black/cream whatever color except silver horse out in your pasture, registered as silver? Just because a parent is silver doesn't necessarily mean the foal is silver, they may carry the gene but there are plenty of foals born to silver parents that aren't silver....I just don't get it, it is driving me nuts!

:

:

I mean if that's my last resort is to call this girl a silver dapple then I suppose I will put it on her papers but darned if i'll be calling her that to myself or anyone else. She's too brown, too much of a brown base is there. Yes I can see silver is at work but that to me doesn't make her a true silver...ack...going to go bang my head on a wall for a while!

:

 

[hairicane]

Well she is very pretty!!! If it was me I would pull a few mane hairs and have her color tested. There is no test for silver but u can sure find out for sure if she has the cream gene and if she is a blk or red based horse. By her color I would definitly say silver _________________. As a guess I think silver black with the cream gene too but u wont know till u test her. I have a lot of silvers and some stay pretty brown all year round. Others are a totally different, a silver/blue color and they all tend to be brown/tan in the winter.

 

[crponies]

Silver blacks can come in many shades. They are still called silver. That is simply the name for that color. Brown is a name for a totally different specific color. Here are some pics of some of my silver blacks so you can see the variety:

My sister's mare, Baby, looks almost palomino:

My now 3 year old (was a yearling in picture) filly, Bliss:

My mare, Belle, and her 2004 filly, Ellie:

This is Ellie checking out the new baby last year. You can see how dark she's turned out (like her sire):

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

I guess...lol...it's just so weird, I understand brown is for a totally different genotype as silver but it's just TOO WEIRD to see a brown horse and say "she's silver" =)

Well I guess i'll need to take a few pics when she is fully shaved and just zip my mouth and call her silver dapple

:

She's been through so many color changes...just a few more pics here to re-cap what we've all seen up to now:

foal:

weanling:

current:

i'm starting to hate silver dapples LOL!

 

[crponies]

You could always call them chocolate like the Rocky Mountain Horse people or taffy like people in Australia/New Zealand do (if I remember right). Although, since you are working with miniatures in the US I would recommend sticking to the term used for that breed here. She is a little different shade than any of mine, maybe because she has the creme gene too?

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

Yeah I suppose I should send in a few hairs for testing, but I keep forgetting to link to the sites everyone recommends on here...lol. Figures eh?

 

[Mona]

I would definately test her for cream, agouti and red/black. I am betting she carries cream, for sure!!

 

[feather__baby]

Oh my gosh she is gorgeous!!!!!I love her!!!!!!!!!

Congratulations!!!!!! :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

Thanks Mona for the help I never remember exactly what to test for lol now I just need to find out which one of the numerous labs people listed would be the best to send her test to...???

feather_baby - thanks very much! I couldn't be more happy with this filly =)

 

[Mona]

Here ya go! Tests are $25 each. One full mane sample is all that is required....not one sample for each test.