New Filly Dwarf????

[horsehug]

Yes ohmt, you are correct that the most recently discovered one by John is an early abortion type. The type 4 one is also one that does not make it to viability.

All of the ones we see that are alive are type 1 or 2 or 3, or a combination of types 1 or 3 or 4 or 5.

It is fairly complicated though.

Type 2 which is the normal body and head with short legs and is on one gene.

The other 4 types (types 1,3,4, and 5) are all on one gene.

Here are some quotes from John.

"Any parent carrying a single copy of 1,3,4,0r 5 combined in any other way with another carrier of any other 1,3,4,5 can make a dwarf. So you have homozygous dwarfs of the same mutation, and heterozygous dwarfs with two copies of mutations just different mutations."

"Only type five is viable in heterozygous form in combination with 1 or 3, when combined with type 4 the 4/5 combination is lethal as well."

I have been asking him questions about dwarfism for about 9 years now. And I am soo grateful for all his time and dedication he has put into this. He was close to having some of his tests available when he found that 5th type last year. He still has hopes of having most if not all of them available to the public in the not too distant future. It is hard to be patient sometimes but then I think of all the hard work he has put in while also running a miniature horse ranch and a training facility also!

Since this forum is always adding more members and newcomers I thought I'd post the link to a thread on this forum from a few years ago about John's work and the Little King Perspective which I also highly respect.

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=51169&st=0

Susan O.

 

[Riverdance]

To me, it isn't the same thing. LWO is a pinto pattern. A horse that carries it is healthy and does no harm in passing it's single copy of that gene on, if bred to a tested not carrier. In that reguard, the pinto pattern is harmless.

But dwarves.......it is known that they have breathing problems, organ problems, leg problems, etc etc etc. And in MOST cases don't live very long lives. It is not the same as a pinto pattern being passed on.

It takes 2 carriers to make a dwarf. But those people that just breed the KNOWN carrier to a different horse.......well that carrier is still, at times passing on that dwarf gene to their normal looking offspring. They sell those carriers to unsuspecting buyers, who then have dwarves pop up in their programs. Or even if the buyers don't, they are then spreading the dwarf gene on and on and on. (without knowing it because the seller didn't mention that)

Years before I had a computer or any knowledge about dwarves, we bought a bred mare who had a dwarf. NOT KNOWING anything about them, I bred her to my stallion and that foal was normal & sold as a pet. I later sold the mare and she went on to have another dwarf. She was a nice looking mare with no outward traits and came from a farm that is known. After later learning about dwarves......if I could go back in time I would have sold her to a pet home or something where she wouldn't be bred any more. But I didn't know then what I know now.

There are many people who DO know yet keep breeding known carriers together or to others. IMO that is not doing the miniature horse breed any favors.

Reo,

With The LWO, you can get a dead foal with two frame parents, but they also pass the gene along, just like the dwarf gene. Yes, the LWO results in a dead foal and the dwarf gene can result in a live foal that someone might think is cute and want to breed it. My concern is that we might find out that most of the Mini's carry the dwarf gene (that is how we got the tiny horse in the first place) and then where will the Mini's be if we do not carefully breed them to try and breed this out. Just because one has never had a dwarf, does not mean that their horses are not carrying the gene, just that so far we have been lucky. I don't know, just food for thought. I would probably not breed a horse again who produced a dwarf, but until we can test our horses, no one can say for sure what they would do.

 

[REO]

That's why I said "A horse that carries it is healthy and does no harm in passing it's single copy of that gene on, if bred to a tested not carrier. In that reguard, the pinto pattern is harmless."

My point in it not being the same is because it's a pinto pattern and because there IS a test so breeders know

And I agree with you! I also wish there were testing available!

 

[ohmt]

Thanks so much, Susan! Very educational

 

[RKG miniatures]

My farrier used an expoxy to build up my dwarfs hoof and it lasted for over a year. He trimmed it every 8 weeks and he moves wonderfully. It worked so well that when I gave him to a new owner, the farrier didn't realize it was the same horse until she mentioned the name of the horse.

 

[Mona]

That's why I said "A horse that carries it is healthy and does no harm in passing it's single copy of that gene on, if bred to a tested not carrier. In that reguard, the pinto pattern is harmless."

My point in it not being the same is because it's a pinto pattern and because there IS a test so breeders know

Riverdance was also inferring that if there was a test available it would be the same thing as the way we are now testing for LWO and breeding selectively to ensure it is not doubled up on, so you are both saying the same thing...that it would be safe to breed a carrier to a TESTED non-carrier whether it be for LWO or Dwarf.

 

[REO]

Yes, no dwarves would result in that case, but dwarf carriers would still be spread. That's all I was saying

There would still be those that don't care or breed grade horses and those carriers being out there and still being made, well...... I was just trying to say that it would be nice if carriers were slowed down or stopped in the "breed".

I did see her point. I was not disagreeing with her, I was making one of my own that was different.

You left off the last part of my post where I agreed with her

LOL

I'd love to see tests!!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I agree that LWO is a different thing- for a start it actually carries something that we want ie the pattern, whereas dwarfism does not. You do not reduce size with a dwarf- you get a dwarf or a normal foal. It is erroneous to think that dwarfism is the reason our horses are small, it is not, it is selective breeding that has done it, and the use of smaller stock each time. Dwarfism is not a necessary trait, and should be eradicated as soon as possible.

On a previous note, as someone who was once accused of being capable of gelding Buckeroo, I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed. If Buckeroo had been gelded we would still have the Miniature Horse and we would still have families like the Eberths breeding them- they would still be just as good, just as sound, just as pretty. We would just never have known about Buckeroo (except maybe as a top show gelding)

 

[Mona]

Yes, no dwarves would result in that case, but dwarf carriers would still be spread. That's all I was saying

There would still be those that don't care or breed grade horses and those carriers being out there and still being made, well...... I was just trying to say that it would be nice if carriers were slowed down or stopped in the "breed".

I did see her point. I was not disagreeing with her, I was making one of my own that was different.

You left off the last part of my post where I agreed with her

LOL

I'd love to see tests!!

All I was saying, is that you were saying the same thing as she was, and still are, and that is, that either way, whether it be LWO (which will kill the resulting foal if it receives 2 copies) or Dwarfism, (IF it holds true the theory they see now, that after testing is available, that they inherit one gene from each parent, which creates a dwarf) will still send on the gene to future generations and the only sure way to avoid it would be to stop breeding it altogether, because those that go untested, can still pass it on. The Same holds true for the LWO. I am NOT saying this is right or wrong, I am saying that MY PERSONAL opinion as well as Riverdance's, is that it is just something else to consider when the testing becomes available, because it could be avoided to the same degree, with selective breeding.

Now the point that Jane makes, does look at it from a different perspective, and likely one we ALL agree on. Thanks Jane for putting into words what many of us are thinking along the lines of but no clear way to say it. LOL!

Oh, and Robin, I left the last part of your post off in the last one, because that was not the part that I was responding to.

 

[TPs flat rock acres]

I am learning so this is just a question but to me it's just as heart breaking to know one is LWO be waiting 11 months to only have a dead foal. the point is whether its right or wrong to be keeping such animals in a breeding program if breeders were just honest then it could help keep it at least under control instead of buyers not knowing spending hard earned money on whAt they hope is something they can build their foundation on. as with dogs and I am pretty sure it's like that with horses is that their are so many with problems doesn't matter if one throws bad bites, bad conformation, not sure if horses can produce Cryptorchidism but many other problems that can put a road block into ones future. it really really gets me mad that with the mare I have that I might have to think of having her only as a pet. I feel the person I get her from should make good on it. do breeders/seller not have to be accounted for what they sell as being faulty?? I hate when people that are big names tack advantage of those just starting or even anyone. if it comes to being about money and making the sale they should be held responsible if something negative comes up with a horse (genetic) I have a 2 yr health contract do they not have this with horses? from what I know my mare has had a foal in 08 which I am guessing was normal from photos looking at finding more information but really this situation why should it be at my expense?

 

[HGFarm]

She absolutely appears to be a dwarf to me- thick body, short neck, heavy bones, short weak legs, domey head with underbite and nostrils are sort of high. I would never breed this foals dam back to the same stallion. I am sure that more Minis carry a dwarf gene than we even know- but depends on whether the mare also exhibits any characteristics. ??

 

[TPs flat rock acres]

i don't think my mare does and the photo of her filly I saw had long legs and was very pretty. I would never breed back to the stallion and don't kow why anyone would want to knowingly try for another. as cute as she is my heart breaks for her future and can only hope she has a pretty normal and happy life

 

[Bess Kelly]

Yes, there are VERY well known (if you mentioned the names) show winners who have produced dwarves !

It isn't what a breeder wants but, it happens. I have had the opportunity to have seen and handled some young ones and the ONE THING that has been apparent, if there was a question when looking, is that they feel like a chunk of lead when you pick them up. A young foal that is birth to a week can be picked up and is normally quite flexible and relatively light weight .... a wet dishrag type. Any dwarf that I have handled is more like a wadded up chunk of tight feeling muscle. Think wet towel in a plastic bag....very heavy for size, little flexibility when contained in a bag. Have birth hundreds of small foals and this dramatic (!!) difference in the 8-10 dwarf ones (not mine) I have handled just haunts me. A little "tank", yes.

And, all their lives they carry this weight factor, even the "minimally" malformed. Like knotted muscle........for lack of better explanation.

I wish they did have genetic testing -- we could all feel better, do better and improve breeding outcomes.

 

[Tremor]

To the OP any updates on the foal?

 

[Carolyn R]

To answer your question, yes, crypts most deffinately exist in horses and mini's. Having a LWO foal is preventable by testing the parents, where as dwarfism has no test so it can virtually pop up anywhere. As others have said, until a test exists, being diligent about ones program is all one can do, and there is no gaurantees with that either.

As far as gaurantees, many breeders offer to allow a purchaser to do a pre purchase exam, and encourage it. Many breeders will gaurantee an animal healthy at the time of sale, if a colt is to be used as a stud, they may include a contract based on fertility ( with offing money back and allowing one to keep the horse, or allowing a purchaser to "exchange" horse for farm credit, the details are usually spelled out). Many times it is taken into consideration when purchasing young stock that they may never pan out and it is a gamble, that is why a colt is typically less than a well proven stallion.

As far as making good on a sale, that is something that is up to a breeder and what they are willing to do, as far as health gauantees, there are so many things that can go wrong with a horse, I think beyond 30 days of a sale, it would be hard to enforce, horses get stressed and get ulcers, contract viruses, get injured, ferriers that are unfamiliar with minis trim them incorrectly causing joint issues, then there is always the argument that outside issues caused the birth defect/dwarfism(unlikely, but until there is a test it is always an argument). All you can do is talk to them, see if they would be willing to give you a farm credit on another mare, it is highly unlikely they will give you cash back. As far as purchasing mares, when I was breeding, I always purchased the horse on what I saw in front of me, never on what it was carrying or bred to, there are no gaurantees that a mare wouldn't abort, have a horrible distocia, foal born with issues, or for that fact, would be born healthy but go down hill and crash.

 

[ozymandias]

i don't think my mare does and the photo of her filly I saw had long legs and was very pretty. I would never breed back to the stallion and don't kow why anyone would want to knowingly try for another. as cute as she is my heart breaks for her future and can only hope she has a pretty normal and happy life

Your mare carries the dwarf gene too even though she has no characteristics. To produce a dwarf both parents have to be carriers. If you bred her to a non carrier she would never produce another but as we have no test for that yet - you'll potentially be producing a dwarf any time you breed her. If it were me I wouldn't breed her again knowing she carries the dwarf gene until there is a test and you can guarantee the stallion you choose is a non carrier.

 

[Riverdance]

Riverdance was also inferring that if there was a test available it would be the same thing as the way we are now testing for LWO and breeding selectively to ensure it is not doubled up on, so you are both saying the same thing...that it would be safe to breed a carrier to a TESTED non-carrier whether it be for LWO or Dwarf.

Thank you Mona, exactly what I was saying, but you said it better.

 

[slv]

I really have to give the OP credit for being new to minis and recognizing right away that this foal is a dwarf. I know personally of some people that have been in the business for 11-12 years and have no idea that some of their foals are dwarfs. They show photos of them and say how beautiful they are and that they intend to repeat the breeding. And don't try telling them that they are a dwarf, they don't want to hear it. So, honestly, kudos to you for recognizing this and going further to educate yourself on it. I am so sorry that this happened to you. It is a risk that we all run when breeding the minis. I purchased a really cute 29 inch mare about six years ago and she was in foal. The resulting foal was a dwarf filly, much more severe than yours. She had leg problems and breathing problems. In hindsight I should have had her put down right away, but I didn't. She nursed well and waddled along side her dam the best she could, but she progressively got worse and her breathing was really bad. It was very apparent that she was in pain. Our vet recommended putting her down and after watching her try to get up and move and realizing that she was going downhill very quickly, I agreed. I gave her mother away to some friends as a pasture mate to their gelding. She is still there. I did tell the person that I purchased her from, but didn't really expect anything in return. The miniature horses business is like a game in ways, sometimes you make good moves and other times you make some not so good moves, or at least that is the way I look at it. I would think that it would be every breeders nightmare to sell a bred mare and have it deliver a dwarf foal. I do think your filly looks as though she will be able to have a decent life, at least for a dwarf. Not at all like the poor little one that I had. Again, kudos to you for educating yourself on the subject and acknowledging that she is a dwarf. Best of luck.

 

[Riverdance]

Yes, no dwarves would result in that case, but dwarf carriers would still be spread. That's all I was saying

There would still be those that don't care or breed grade horses and those carriers being out there and still being made, well...... I was just trying to say that it would be nice if carriers were slowed down or stopped in the "breed".

I did see her point. I was not disagreeing with her, I was making one of my own that was different.

You left off the last part of my post where I agreed with her

LOL

I'd love to see tests!!

REO, In a way we are agreeing with what I am saying, but the LWO gene is passed on too and in order to not get one, we must test and make sure that we are not breeding two positives, as I hope we will soon be able to do in Dwarfs. Still, there are people who will breed dwarfs to make small babies, and there are people out there that will breed positive LWO to positive LWO or will not even test their horses before they breed. The results are still the same, dead foal or one who has to suffer for a couple of days, or dead dwarf or one who has to suffer. With the LWO, there are many VERY ignorant breeders out there. I had one tell me that they bred a Tobiano to a Tobiano and got a pure white foal. She said she had it for a couple of weeks and then put it down because it must be a lethal white. Their way of putting it down was to shoot it in the head. Some people are so ignorant and a lovely foal lost its life to this kind of ignorance.

 

[Riverdance]

I agree that LWO is a different thing- for a start it actually carries something that we want ie the pattern, whereas dwarfism does not. You do not reduce size with a dwarf- you get a dwarf or a normal foal. It is erroneous to think that dwarfism is the reason our horses are small, it is not, it is selective breeding that has done it, and the use of smaller stock each time. Dwarfism is not a necessary trait, and should be eradicated as soon as possible.

On a previous note, as someone who was once accused of being capable of gelding Buckeroo, I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed. If Buckeroo had been gelded we would still have the Miniature Horse and we would still have families like the Eberths breeding them- they would still be just as good, just as sound, just as pretty. We would just never have known about Buckeroo (except maybe as a top show gelding)

Unfortunately, many dwarfs were used over the years in the Miniature horse breeding program. I know some very famous ones. One I actually saw in person and was really surprised as he was so popular. Remember, there was a time when breeding small to small was all that was done and most desirable. There are many minimal dwarfs with only some of the dwarf traits. Most people do not know what a dwarf looks like, thus this page and the Einstein page. Even many Mini breeders can not agree what is a dwarf.