Measuring at the World Show

[Becky]

It appears that a number of horses measured considerably smaller than they actually are or the size classes they had been showing in all year. I heard a LOT of complaints regarding the measuring yet, when I inquired about protesting height right before a class I was basically told I couldn't do it then even though the rule book doesn't say you can't.

I heard that the measuring steward said his job was 'to measure horses in, not out'.

I think it's a crying shame when AMHA doesn't follow it's own measuring rules.

 

[LaVern]

It appears that a number of horses measured considerably smaller than they actually are or the size classes they had been showing in all year.  I heard a LOT of complaints regarding the measuring yet, when I inquired about protesting height right before a class I was basically told I couldn't do it then even though the rule book doesn't say you can't.   
I heard that the measuring steward said his job was 'to measure horses in, not out'. 

I think it's a crying shame when AMHA doesn't follow it's own measuring rules.

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[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]I agree. Thats why I have never complained either....doesnt seem like it would do any good AMHA or AMHR.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[LaVern]

I hope there will come a day when we will use the lazar(sp) technology that is available to measure these guys both AMHA and AMHR for the shows. It would be and very easy and inexpensive.

 

[brookhaven]

Until measuring becomes an exact science, it has to be accepted as is. You can measure a horse 16 times a day and come up with a different size each time depending on how it's standing, whether its back muscles are tense, etc. That's where the judging of the horse comes into play. Many people protest because they feel the taller horse has the advantage. But the horse should be judged on more than height alone. At the World Show there were many times that the smallest horse in the class won and to me that's good judging!

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Until measuring becomes an exact science, it has to be accepted as is. You can measure a horse 16 times a day and come up with a different size each time depending on how it's standing, whether its back muscles are tense, etc.

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I totally agree with that one and how it is clipped where its mane actually appears to end and where it does end if it happens to be a taller horse with a mane that actually grows back farther then the average horse so many different things come into play

 

[Charlotte]

Yes Brookhaven, measuring can vary widely on the same horse depending on where and how the horse is measured, so I think measurers at shows are lenient to 1/4" or so and probably should be, but horses measured at the same location by the same person and equipment which later measure 1 1/2" over the allowed height is not in the best interest of our breed.

Charlotte

 

[Belinda]

Becky,

You are right in the remark , you heard about not measuring anything out.!!

That is just wrong.. Also even tho it is not an exact science , we can still get close , there was a horse protested on Sat. Sen. Stallion had shown in 28-30 all year was last years 28-30 World Champion. This year at World he entered the 28 & under.. Owner of a horse in 28 & under protested.. The horse when taken down and remeasured was found to be 29.5 I understand a little bit off but a inch and half. COME ON FOLKS!

Now the second sad side to that story , the folk that protested did not confer with their trainer that they had paid all year, and he got mad,, 10 minutes before the class , HE REFUSED TO SHOW THEIR HORSE.!! WRONG WRONG WRONG.. I really felt for those folks, they tried to do what they thought was right and their horse got left at the stall..

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

OK just throwing this out there as well.. How many times when someone says something even on this board which is a small population of the mini world really that people come back at them very angry saying OH you are just jealous or this is just sour grapes.. well you know what sometimes it is but others it really isn't however.. how is that making it "safe" for those to file protests and not be ousted when we (and I say that collectively) do it right here

 

[Frankie]

I appaud the person who filed the protest. It is the only way to keep things fair, AND to make sure rules are followed. Rules aren't in writing for them to be followed, just kind of close. A rule should be followed. As members, we have to make sure that happens.

As for the trainer, would love to know who that was. I use a trainer each year, can't imagine the amount of money involved for these people, including a good place that may have resulted in future financial gain.

 

[Frankie]

Just wanted to add: I thought it was the clients who were paying the trainers, not the other trainers................

 

[brookhaven]

Okay, gulp....the other side of the coin. When you put your horse with a trainer, you put not just your money, but your trust in his/her ability to condition, train, present and show your horse. You trust in his/her judgment in all matters involved in showing. Then, when you go behind his/her back and take it upon yourself to file an official protest (right or wrong), you are then insulting your trainers own judgment. If the trainer was not concerned about the horse being protested, it was probably because he/she thought your horse had a better chance to win against the protested horse anyway. Trainers are knowledgable about their competition and they want to win! The proper thing would have been to at least consult with the trainer first. He/she may have agreed, filed the protest, and have gone into the ring in support of your decision.

 

[user 488]

<<BTW any trainer that refused to show for that reason should be outed by the clients involved. Unfreakingbelievable..... >>

You got that right............and I posted the same thing on another thread. Again, this POMPOUS you know what should be sued. Funny, you hear about these same ones screwing clients over and over. What happened to PROFESSIONALISM? What a joke!

Oh I would just love to see this individual come and try to show in "another" breed. They would be tarred, feathered and laughed out of the arena. Not that we do not have our problems, but this kind of stuff is surreal.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Your trainer is paid to train your horse and not worry about some other trainers horse! I think that was totally unprofessional to refuse to show the horse and please pm me with that trainers name so I am sure NOT to hire them![/SIZE]

I would hate to get to nationals and find that my trainer wasnt going to do what I have worked all year to make happen!

Lyn

 

[Viki]

This whole situation with the trainers may put a bad light on all trainers! I personally know VERY HONEST, UPFRONT, CARING trainers! They DO look at the other horses showing, it is not in my horses best interest to show against an illegally measured horse. And, they would never leave a client horse in harms way, or even where harm could conceivably come her way!

About the protest, I find it more than upsetting that OFFICIALS of our Association decided to disregard the actual written rules!

I agree whole heartedly with Becky & Charlotte, we must become more active and hold these people accountable.

This season of Championships & World was so bad, I plan to keep my check ready to protest at every show, if that’s what it takes, to get honest measuring!

All I've ever asked is the opportunity to show my horse receiving an honest measurement and judging. Just a fair shake. I dont think that is asking too much.

Viki

BTW, when I was working shows, I many times witnessed measuring. As a matter of course, we never asked what the horse was 'supposed to be' or what class it was showing in. As a staff member, after the measuring, I would look to see what the horse was entered in, then speak up if it measured over or under that class.

 

[Tabitha]

Brookhaven, a protest is a protest, and should have nothing at all to do with the question of whether or not the protesters horse can or cannot beat the horse being protested.

If the horse in question is an inch & a half over the size limit for the class, someone darned well should file a complaint. It shouldn't be a matter of deciding "my horse can almost certainly beat that one, so who cares if that one is over the size limit for this class" or "I'm going to protest that horse because if he comes in this class he's going to beat my horse". Rules are rules, and should be followed by all. If anyone is in violation, then they should be turned in by someone/anyone. If that someone is an owner, he/she shouldn't have to get his/her trainer's approval first--he/she is paying that trainer, not the other way around. Does it surprise me that in this case the trainer dumped the horse? Not at all--trainer won't want to be blacklisted by all the other trainer/judges that are in a position to get even at a later show.

 

[SunQuest]

Does it surprise me that in this case the trainer dumped the horse?  Not at all--trainer won't want to be blacklisted by all the other trainer/judges that are in a position to get even at a later show.

So instead risk your reputation as a trainer with the general public which are the ones that pay this trainer???

If this trainer knew that the other horse was not in the proper class for it's height, then that trainer should have backed his client. It wasn't the trainer who was filing the protest after all. But the trainer probably should have filed the protest though as it is the trainer's job to see to it that his/her client's horse is entered into a fair competion where the horse has the best chance to win and where the rules are followed IMO. Allowing a horse that clearly doesn't belong in that class due to not following rules is very unfair to ALL participants in that class INCLUDING his/her own client's animals as it tarnishes that class's results and takes away from an honest victory as it makes one question everyone involved with the placements in that class. Again just my opinion.

Further, it is my opinion that his trainer is blatantly wrong for not abiding by a CONTRACT (doesn't matter if it is verbal or written IMO) to show that horse at that show. He or She agreed to show that horse at that time in that class NO MATTER WHAT and he or she broke that contract. The only way that trainer should be able to get out of that contract would be if said horse was not able to perform or that said trainer was not paid or client knowingly broke rules of the registery or actual laws. Verticle Limits is right... This contract was broken and there should be action taken in that reguards IMO.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

something doesn't make sense to me here I dont show AMHA so forgive what might be a stupid question but do you have to PRE ENTER a class as in before you get to the show like the AMHR youth do? Or can you add and scratch the day of the show?

if you can add then how on earth would anyone know who they are showing against?

I dont know the trainers or people involved but I do know that I personally would expect my trainer and or there staff to be getting my horse ready for his class not running around to see who might be in the class with them and what they measured in at I have heard a few say that is the trainers job I just dont see it that way. They are not handling only my horse and really very probable they are coming out of one class being handed my horse and heading right back in the ring.

Again i would find it a bit odd if a professional was running back and forth to the gate steward to find out who his competition was but again maybe that is just me.

I would have to agree that again IF IT WERE ME - I would discuss with my trainer before taking any action like protesting anything and then discuss with them there thoughts on doing so or not doing so. I trust them with my horse so I would think I would trust there judgment on other things as well. I might not agree but would at least hear what they had to say.

I say again that we as a breed sort of created an issue that is even bigger due to measuring different then any other breed of horse out there and in a way that is so open to interpretation.

 

[SunQuest]

I agree with you Lisa. But, the trainers should know who their competion is likely to be at this level. And to get to this level the competion normally would show in other classes to qualify them for showing. A trainer gets paid to know the competion so that they can place a client's horse in the most likely spot to win IMO and that isn't just talking about which class. It is talking about who to follow in the lineup so that you don't draw attention to the weakest point in your horse by standing next to a horse that is the perfect opposite of that fault. So trainers do or should know who is entered or likely to have entered.

And while the trainer may not be watching all the horses, the fact is that the client told the trainer, or someone told the trainer that the client filed a protest.

Rules are rules. It is a black and white issue IMO. This trainer should have backed the client 100% if the client knew for sure that the horse was over the height limit for that class and could prove it. It should NOT be something that someone should have to debate over. This is easily verifiable by having the horse remeasured and the client knew that. The client was putting their own repuation at stake and the trainer should respect that or not have them as a client if they can't deal with that client's values when it comes to following rules.

Besides... I bet there is more to the story than the trainer just dropping the horse at that point.

Again, to me it is a very black and white issue. If a protest was filed, that horse should have been immediately remeasured. The trainer should have showed the protester's horse even if the protest was deamed false. After all, the protester put their own money on this issue. And if the trainer was irked over it, then the trainer still had an obligation to show that horse. The trainer could have dumped the client afterwards and not have hurt his reputation with his peers as the peers would have learned that the trainer didn't agree with the client afterwards.

There really was no excuse for the lack of professionalism shown. But again, this is all just my opinion.

(edited to fix a gramatical error)

 

[Margo_C-T]

I have posted at length on the other thread currently going on this subject, but wanted to:

thank Becky for bringing this into the light--

agree with Nila's postition on the 'trainer'. The horse belongs to the OWNER. The trainer is providing a service, under contract-which I would surmise was severely violated by the stated action. As Nila said, the trainer could have'dumped' the owner AFTER fulfilling his/her contractual obligation, then commiserated with his/her cronies....

agree that the miniature breed organizations should(my terms)pull their heads out of the"let's pretend they're smaller than they are" sand, and move to measuring as all other horses are--at the top of the withers-a discernible point, even in fat, and/or mutton-withered horses. Such would not 'solve' the current problem, which IMO is one of deliberate sidestepping of the rules, but if instituted, and THEN followed to the letter, could help in preventing this sort of situation from arising again.

Just a few more cents' worth....I do SO hope the fact that this problem is FINALLY out in the open will lead to a proactiveness among the association's members......!!!!!!!! Maybe this will FINALLY be the chance to institute a return to adherence to ALL of the rules...?