Measuring at the World Show

[Minimor]

Thing is, Lisa, if someone isn't going to measure "properly" then it doesn't really matter if the horse is measured at the last mane hair or on top the withers...if the measure stick isn't going to be set on the floor when measuring, even measuring on top the withers isn't going to be accurate.

Sure, by using the last mane hair that is open to interpretation as far as how someone clips the horse or whatever, but if the person measuring is going to ask "which class do you want him in", then it's still entirely possible to measure from a spot 1" down from the top of the withers. Even though I agree it is kind of silly that Miniatures were ever measured from the last mane hair rather than from the top of the withers....in respect to the problem now being discussed I don't think it makes any difference where the measure point is supposed to be.

In the Morgan world, I believe that horses winning a World Championship must have their toe length measured & shoe/pad weighed upon leaving the ring. This means the horse must have a shoe pulled, weighed & then reset after the class. If a shoe is thrown during a class, it is weighed before the farrier resets it. I think someone could also file a protest after a class, & the horse would have to have toe length measured or shoe weighed....perhaps in Minis at National/World level the top placing horses should be measured upon leaving the ring???

I do agree that the trainer in this case had an obligation to show the horse in its class--it was totally wrong to dump the horse because of the protest. It may seem dumb in terms of the business he could lose once word gets around, but there may be those owners who were displeased with the protest & will "reward" that trainer for his "loyalty" to the other trainers, by giving him their business in future. If he's a successful trainer/showman(I have no idea who we're talking about here!

) then there are still going to be owners who want to use him--they will just make very sure they don't rock the boat with him! And he will surely be rewarded by some of the other trainers/judges at future shows--I'm not saying all judges will judge according to who is handling a horse, but yes, there are those that do take that into consideration. Definitely there are those that will blacklist a trainer who does something/supports an owner who does something out of the norm (like filing such a protest)!

Even though nearly all here have stated that they believe the trainer was in the wrong on this issue, you can be sure that there are people out there who believe the owner made a major screw up and that it serves him/her right for placing a protest at all, & especially without the consent of the trainer. Trainer isn't likely to lose all his business over this, I don't think.

 

[nootka]

I was also wondering if there could not be some enforced measurement just as drug testing is done, but what would they do, then, rejudge the whole class?

It is NOT FAIR that horses are so easily manipulated between size divisions.

There is not a lot of competition in one, so they move 'em down a notch to try and cheat. Just seems really sick IMHO.

I know of one mare in this area that has a cigarette lighter scar/burn on her withers from being taught to "hunch down" when the stick comes onto her withers. This trainer, though, is known for their cruel practices, not that it stops people from using them, it seems.

I just think that when people tighten down the regulations, there will be more people finding ways around them...such as what would it take to go in and shave a quarter inch off that shoulder/wither bone and seal the incision so that a scar did not show? I guess I'm just thinking like the "baddies" do.

All one could wish for is honesty, but it's not going to happen when everyone is looking for the ego stroke (where money isn't a factor) or money for those National titles.

It is a self-imposed issue, as Lisa mentioned, because we are producing a height breed, but we need better rules and enforcement to handle it. I think Margo has a pretty good handle on it, but I rarely see that much effort put into the measuring process, even at a large Regional show.

Liz M.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Making horses smaller than they really are is not a new thing, it's not even an American thing!! We have BIG money in Show Ponies over here. They go by height, starting at under 11.2hh, lead rein, then under 12hh Mountain and Moorland lead rein, then under 12.2hh and under 13.2hh and under 14.2.hh. Ponies can only show in the group they are qualified for, and smaller ponies get few looks as the children are usually professionals and are pushing the age limit!! So- an 11.2 1/2hh Pony is useless. It won't get much of a look in in the under 12.2hh class and the chances are it's not an M&M eligible pony. So... do you honestly think there are many 11.2 1/2 hh ponies out there?? Not really good ones, anyway! It doesn't even take real cruelty to do it, either. A thumbtack in the arm of the measuring stick, gently pressed until the pony ducks will do it every time, so long as it is practised every day- the pony then knows that when the arm descends it gets a not nice experience- not enough to be pain but enough to be avoided- so it avoids!! We, as all sensible people, measure to the withers as there is nothing you can do about the withers, is there?? Well, apart form have the horse operated on to remove a great big hunk of bone....Yes, it has happened!! Then there's clipping the horse and leaving it without it's blankets the night before measuring, and letting it stand all night with sand bags across it's withers...the list goes on. Our show horses/ponies are all measured by an Independent board , not aligned to any Society, but whose individual members are NOT above "kickbacks "...or so the stories go. Certainly Stroller, a famous jumping "Pony" stood 15.1 hh and another "Pony" stood 15.2hh- the limit was still 14.2hh last time I looked!! Both were said to have "grown" between their young riders leaving ponies and entering, still on the "pony" Adult classes- well, 4 inches at eight is pushing it a bit!! So, you are not alone, and there is NO answer, there really isn't. We have tried it every way, and we just think we are getting it right and something else turns up! Maybe it is time for the AMHA to face up to the fact that it has never been a "34" and under society, anyway, as your 34" is our 36" when measured correctly, so why not just start a "B" division and have done?? I know, I know you will then get the same problem at the higher level, but at least the horses will be being measured properly- it is very very hard to alter withers, and in all my years showing I have only ever heard of that one extreme case!! You can't glue them on and you can't shrink them off- if a horse ducks it can't be measured so it should be thrown out, end of problem. Too simple?? KISS

 

[user 488]

Bottom line is WHAT IS THE MINIATURE HORSE BREED GOING TO DO TO CHANGE WHAT IS HAPPENING. What trainers are going to take the risk and stand up and say enough is enough

Until all of you take a stand on this nothing is going to change. I have heard these arguments year after year.........always after Worlds and Nationals. So get going and do something and be part of the solution. Because doing nothing just makes you part of the problem.

IT TAKES GUTS! I know the barn I am with was instrumental in seeing that the ginger rules were enforced (Arabs) We were not very popular because of it. But guess what? It's working. I have seen major changes in the last 5 years.

It can work...............I've been a part of change and I am proud of it.

The horse belongs to the OWNER. The trainer is providing a service, under contract-which I would surmise was severely violated by the stated action. As Nila said, the trainer could have'dumped' the owner AFTER fulfilling his/her contractual obligation, then commiserated with his/her cronies....

Again, that is the only PROFESSIONAL way to handle these things. You just don't dump a person before their class no matter what happens. This kind of behavior is totally unforgivable and again should be sued.

Edited again for bad, bad spelling.........

 

[Charlotte]

I think it is very interesting that several have suggested (and in private email to me too) about remeasuring after the class.

Sooo, what if, a level place were set up by cneter ring, the Ch and Reserve were remeasured there in front of God and all spectators. any horse measuring over would be excused from the ring forfeiting all awards. touchy, I know, 'what if the horse was nervous, that takes too much time, etc etc, etc'. There can always be excuses, but maybe it is going to take a really difficult decision to get this matter corrected.

This same could apply to the driving horses just like in the Morgan Grand Nationals which I love to watch..........the performance horses are ALL stripped and evaluated then retacked and placed. It is done with quite a bit of pomp and is very interesting to watch. The mini Ch and Res could be stripped & remeasured then leave the ring in halter or retacked/hitched......their choice.

Any thoughts on this?

Charlotte

 

[Minimor]

Charlotte, that proposal (all of it, from measuring the halter winners to stripping & measuring the harness horses) would get my vote!

Sure, it's just the top two horses that would get measured, but....if you're going out there with the hope of winning, you're going to be more likely to make sure that you're showing the horse in his/her genuine height class--the possibility of winning should help make everyone in the class honest.

Ya, I can already hear all the excuses for not doing something like this!

 

[Becky]

I am making a rule change proposal that all horses showing at the AMHA World Championship Show will not be allowed to show in classes that are a smaller height division than they have been showing in that year. They can move up, but not down.

This may not resolve all the measuring problems, but it is a step in the right direction.

 

[Viki]

I agree with your proposal, Becky!

It is certainly a big step in the right direction!

Viki

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

The mini Ch and Res could be stripped & remeasured then leave the ring in halter or retacked/hitched......their choice.
Any thoughts on this?

Charlotte

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I would say this issue is bigger then who wins the class but do agree with beckys I think that is a step in the right direction anyway of course then it comes down to who will watch and protest at the local levels

 

[Chandler@RoyalPalm]

In my opinion.....

NOBODY will ever be happy...

Last year measuring was tough and there was a stuffy atmosphere during measuring.

This year the people measuring were trying their absolute best to please everybody and do the best they can...

So I think we should all be happy and move on!!!!! THE SHOW IS OVER!!!! and hopefully next year they will end up pleasing everybody

 

[Becky]

This year the people measuring were trying their absolute best to please everybody and do the best they can...

But it's not about pleasing everybody, it's about following the rules.....

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]I like Beckys idea.... I dont show AMHA but I might if I felt like the little guys would get a better shot and I think that would level the playing field a bit.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[wildoak]

I am making a rule change proposal that all horses showing at the AMHA World Championship Show will not be allowed to show in classes that are a smaller height division than they have been showing in that year. They can move up, but not down.

I'll back that one too - it is so logical I can't imagine why it wasn't done years ago!

Jan

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

It really is unfortunate that such unethical behavior is allowed and continues or should we say flourishes in this breed.

The trainer of the horse trying to show in the different class, should be penalized (assuming found guilty) and the trainer that dumped his clients should be publicly outed for such a lack of moral fiber, cowardice and plain lack of integrity.

Not surprisingly the same names do come up year after year - I just wonder at the ethics of those that employ these breeders/trainers (excusing those that are new to minis), but it does make me think long and hard about doing business with them!

I do feel for the poor people that lost out by their horse not being shown and they should sue this man - he deserves it!

Becky - go for it with that proposal. Hopefully the AMHA membership will start to show up at the meetings and more positive changes can be made!

 

[minisch]

Can you pm me with the trainers name. Thanks.