"Maximum Expression" Pintos

[Joanne]

On another post regarding blue eyes, the concept of maximum expression of a gene was discussed.

We have had a few solid white horses recently and when tested these all carried at multiple pinto genes. Though they are genetically pintos, they are listed with AMHA as solid white horses, which is what they are phenotypically.

Here are a couple of examples:

This is Pacific Moonlighting. He has a black roan patch on his right flank, the mascara around his Rt eye, Black in his Rt Ear, and a muzzle spot. I have tried to include most of these in this post. He has two blue eyes. There are more photos on our website if you are interested. He is registered as a white horse, though when he was clipped out as a yearling the Rt roan flank spot was visible and I think he could be registered as a pinto at this time.

He was genetically tested and is a (get this !!) A Homozygous Black (EE), Heterozygous Agouti (Aa), Heterozygous of each; Tobiano, LWO, and Sabino 1.

Here is a second example:

This is Pacific Dove. There is no visible colored hair that we can find on her. She does have some black pigment skin spots.She also has two blue eyes.

She was genetically tested and is: A Homozygous Black (EE), Heterozygous Agouti (Aa), Heterozygous of each; Tobiano, LWO, and Sabino 1.

Genetically these type of "White" horses are a powerhouse of color from a breeding perspective. They can produce Frames, Sabinos, and Tobiano Pintos, or a combination of pinto patterns, even when bred to a solid mare or stallion.

In these two horses cases they can never produce a red horse as they are both homozygous for black.

It can be hard for a breeder to look at a SOLID WHITE horse and think that it is HOMOZYGOUS FOR BLACK.

But that is genetically just what these horses are !!!

 

[Leeana]

I owned a gelding that was max expression as well, he was a LTD's Magic Man son, solid white...blue eyes...he did, however, have black spots on the inside of his ears.

Pretty neat

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

And here's my friend's sorrel max expressed filly, I do not believe she has blue eyes, will have to shoot an email and ask..

Filly

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Hmm...yes, pretty horses, but no more likely to produce wild pattern than any other animal carrying all four patterns.

I can see how people have trouble equating a "white" horse with the patterns beneath, these white horses both "mask" the patterns, as do a lot of white horses.

Once again the registries fall down under the very simple burden of actually portraying the truth on the registration papers instead of requiring the breeder to lie!!!

I can absolutely see why a registry would require proof that this "white" horse is actually a Pinto, but I can see absolutely NO reason why they would refuse to print the truth when it is proven, to me that is the same as requiring DNA proof of parentage and then refusing to put the sire and dams names on the papers!!

Tell me, breeders, how would you feel if you registered your foal as by "King Twinkle Toes" and were told be the registry concerned that, in spite of your foal being DNA parent proven, you had to say that his sire was " Itsy Bitsy Boo Boo"???

 

[Joanne]

Hmm...yes, pretty horses, but no more likely to produce wild pattern than any other animal carrying all four patterns.

You are correct, but there are not THAT MANY horses carrying three or four pinto patterns. So simple math says that these horses bred to a solid horse are a goldmine in a pinto breeding program allowing a great variation year after year of what they will produce.

Adding the concept that the pinto breeding program likely already has some possible Frames, Tobianos, Splashed Whites, and Sabinos, the variation (including "wild patterns" ) increases dramatically. I am not suggesting breeding LWO to LWO, but breeding a LWO with the combination mentioned, to a heterozygous Tobiano, Sabino, or Splashed White, creates the possibility of a huge variation (from mild to wild color) in the offspring.

For me this is the greatest Christmas present ever.... awaiting foals from combination such as these, and seeing the outcome!

Fortunatly there are people that like either end of the spectrum of color. Some want minimal white and some like the wilder the better!

I agree about the registries and color. Though I am delighted that mine are not listed as cremellos, as genetically they are far from that.

 

[Callie]

Will someone explain a solid white horse with black eyes. I have Del Teras Music City and she has black body spots all over but all white hair. The 3 foals she has produced all look "white" but the first had a peachy colored dusting over her topline at birth. The filly from last year is showing a very light golden pinto pattern and was sired by my dun splash stud. The 2 that have matured have developed the black body spots. When they are wet they really look more like Dalmations! The other sires of the other foals were a non-fade black toby pinto that did not carry cream, and an app that also didn't carry cream. I have always believed they are max. sabino, and that they would have to have the splash or frame to have blue eyes.

Thanks!

 

[Walbon Acres]

I had an all white colt born this year with 2 blue eyes and a perfect red V in the middle of his forehead. I really had a hard time registering him pinto but that is what he is. I wan't to register him white with a red star! LOL!!!!!!!!! I have not had him color tested but I guess I should then I would know for sure . His mother is a brown frosted App and he has 2 full sister that are blue roan blanketed Apps. I wonder what I would get back on his color DNA test?!

 

[MiLo Minis]

This is our all white stallion Mack. He has a tiny black spot inside one ear and about 10 black hairs in his tail. He has 2 blue eyes.

Bred to a solid coloured mare he gave us Icey. One blue eye and one half brown, half blue.

Bred to a minimal tobiano silver bay pinto mare he gave us Mable. 2 blue eyes.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Will someone explain a solid white horse with black eyes. I have Del Teras Music City and she has black body spots all over but all white hair. The 3 foals she has produced all look "white" but the first had a peachy colored dusting over her topline at birth. The filly from last year is showing a very light golden pinto pattern and was sired by my dun splash stud. The 2 that have matured have developed the black body spots. When they are wet they really look more like Dalmations! The other sires of the other foals were a non-fade black toby pinto that did not carry cream, and an app that also didn't carry cream. I have always believed they are max. sabino, and that they would have to have the splash or frame to have blue eyes. Thanks!

I would say you are right - they are maximum sabinos. They sound the same as my maximum sorrel sabino mares, full sisters, who are both pretty well white in the summer, have black spots all over them when they are wet from a bath, show mottling on their faces and privates, and in the winter they are dusted with pink. They both have brown eyes and an apron face. This is the same mare in both pictures - Jem Dusky's Dream and she isn't clipped in either photo. Her sister is her twin.

 

[Joanne]

There is one form of sabino that you only get to see their true color twice a year when they shed out and the new hair is in.

The rest of the time they fade to white or near white.

I think some of the older registered horses that are listed as grey are often a sabino of this type.

Also, some of the sabinos are incorrectly listed as roans.

I have a horse now that does not test as a sabino (sb1), but has no roan in her background. (I own the sire and dam). AMHA listed her as a roan, as that is what she looks like phenotypically. Here is a photo of her. Again, the amount of white varies by the time of year.

 

[Dona]

Will someone explain a solid white horse with black eyes. I have Del Teras Music City and she has black body spots all over but all white hair. The 3 foals she has produced all look "white" but the first had a peachy colored dusting over her topline at birth. The filly from last year is showing a very light golden pinto pattern and was sired by my dun splash stud. The 2 that have matured have developed the black body spots. When they are wet they really look more like Dalmations! The other sires of the other foals were a non-fade black toby pinto that did not carry cream, and an app that also didn't carry cream. I have always believed they are max. sabino, and that they would have to have the splash or frame to have blue eyes. Thanks!

You are right in that a large portion of white horses ARE Max White Sabinos. That, alone, would not produce a high percentage of wild pinto patterns...unless they also carried other pinto patterns genetically.

I had a Max White Sabino (with dark eyes) who tested homozygous (two genes) for SABINO, homozygous for BLACK, and homozygous for SILVER. That means she could only produce Silver Black based foals no matter what colors she was bred to. She also tested negative for Tobiano & Frame...and at the time, there were no tests for Splash...but I don't believe she carried that either.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Milo I want Mabel, I demand that you pack her up and send her to me right now or I shall pitch a fit!!!

(and that will not be pretty in a woman of my age.....zimmer frame through the window, incontinence pants on my head....get the picture///

)

Joanne, your horse does not look Roan at all, she looks Grey...I think we talked about this one though, I seem to remember...could you repost her pedigree????

Very nice little mare, though.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Milo I want Mabel, I demand that you pack her up and send her to me right now or I shall pitch a fit!!!(and that will not be pretty in a woman of my age.....zimmer frame through the window, incontinence pants on my head....get the picture///

)

Joanne, your horse does not look Roan at all, she looks Grey...I think we talked about this one though, I seem to remember...could you repost her pedigree????

Very nice little mare, though.

You and a few dozen others! Sorry but the plan right now is for Mable to show under the Maple Mountain flag and then stay home and make more pretty babies for us. Although........for the right amount of money I could be persuaded to part with her - we do have another of the same breeding coming this year

I agree about the roan. She doesn't have the typical darker face and pointed black socks of a roan and looks grey. Were either of her parents grey?

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I'm sorry Rabbit, but Mabel is coming to MO! Milo doesn't know it yet, but the trailer's on the way!

Wowzer, she's darn near perfection!!

I certainly "settle" for that level of perfection anytime.

 

[MiLo Minis]

I think its a darned good thing you two ladies are on opposite sides of the ocean! I wouldn't want to have to referee that one!

And poor little Mabel pulled in two...........yuck!

 

[RallyZ]

incontinence pants on my head....get the picture

Jane, you crack me up.

I really want a front row seat for that fit you're gonna pitch.

Joanne,

I agree with the previous posters about the grey and also that she is a nice looking mare.

 

[Joanne]

I own both parents of Dancer and neither are grey. Photos of both sire and dam are Shown below.

She is carrying some type of sabino that we cannot test for at this time.

She is that sabino that has more white at some times of the year, and then will be quite black, with just her tobiano pinto markings showing at other times of the year when she is newly shed out.

Dam: Pacific Painted Evening Sire: Magic Man's Color Prints

Black Tobiano Pinto Bay Frame Sabino Pinto, Homozygous Black

 

[MiLo Minis]

You're right! She sure isn't grey!

Definitely sabino as both parents show sabino characteristics along with their overo/tovero traits. Both nice horses as well - I can see where the mare got her looks.

 

[Joanne]

Thanks Lori

I agree there is something else going on with her dam Painted Evening with all those jagged markings, but she tests sb1 negative.

Dancer's sire, Color Prints, however tests sb1 positive.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Thanks Lori

I agree there is something else going on with her dam Painted Evening with all those jagged markings, but she tests sb1 negative.

Dancer's sire, Color Prints, however tests sb1 positive.

Her face white extending over onto her chin sort of seals the sabino for me - they just have to figure out tests for the "other" sabino genes and I can bet they get a positive on her at that point.