MiniHoofBeats
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I have to say this is my favorite topic yet! My favorite appies are snowcaps and few pots, this topic is just tickling me pink!!!!!
Lets see your
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AppyLover2
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Not snowcap or few spot, but here's my middle size spotted boy. Not sure at this point if he's still a "miniature". If not, I don't think he's a bad looking little POA.
Here he is with his little friend Kitten. I'm hoping she'll spot out too.
Here he is with his little friend Kitten. I'm hoping she'll spot out too.
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Little Wee Horse Farm
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Here's some of our snowcaps:
RF Bars Warrior Princess (Xena), a palomino snowcap
Angel (bred here) with her then one-day-old daughter, Gwen. Like mother, like daughter!
Angel really is a true snowcap, but she's dirty from delivery.
Gwen when she's unfolded at 3 days old.
RF Bars Warrior Princess (Xena), a palomino snowcap
Angel (bred here) with her then one-day-old daughter, Gwen. Like mother, like daughter!
Gwen when she's unfolded at 3 days old.
L
Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis
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We have a few spot.. Her picture is really just to bad to post here as she looks way ugly and truth be told she isn't the most beautiful animal around anyway
She is however a good producing mare who gives her refinement and movement to her foals. She is a palomino few spot of course in the winter it is harder to see her spots.
I know there was some discussion before about a appy with a few spots not being a true few spot leopard but being a varnish or something.
I have to say i respectfully disagree the term few spot leopard appy came from meaning just that an appy being a leopard meaning no blanket spots all over the body including the face just not tons of them
I know there was some discussion before about a appy with a few spots not being a true few spot leopard but being a varnish or something.
I have to say i respectfully disagree the term few spot leopard appy came from meaning just that an appy being a leopard meaning no blanket spots all over the body including the face just not tons of them
Little Wee Horse Farm
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Interesting, Lisa (Ruff n Tuff) ...........when I first started breeding appys, (1980's) the accepted definition of a few spot was a horse with less than 10 spots, I believe.
However, I found that wasn't the accepted definition in general use after about 2000. I just figured I had wrong info, but I've always wondered about that..........writings by Carr & Lapp changed my view, but I still wonder. But, then again, they should know. How do you feel about it?
Even if there are "10 spots" or "12 spots" scattered about, it is still a huge white continuim, so my feelings are somewhat mixed on this. sorry, this is
However, I found that wasn't the accepted definition in general use after about 2000. I just figured I had wrong info, but I've always wondered about that..........writings by Carr & Lapp changed my view, but I still wonder. But, then again, they should know. How do you feel about it?
Even if there are "10 spots" or "12 spots" scattered about, it is still a huge white continuim, so my feelings are somewhat mixed on this. sorry, this is
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MiniHoofBeats
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I have to say after reading this article by Gene Carr and Robert Lapp, I have a whole new understanding of appies and the difference between a "homozygous" snowcap appy, and a "false" snowcap appy. Same goes with few spots, in my understanding it is as so: if the foal has 2 appy parents and comes out a snowcap or a few spot, it is a TRUE snowcap or few spot. If the foal has only 1 appy parent, it is a FALSE snowcap or few spot meaning, it just has the appearance but is not homozygous.
http://www.dailypost.com/~santee/appcoatpatterns.htm
That's the article, I would suggest any appy breeders to read it over, it is very informative and I wouldn't have a darned clue if it weren't for that article! I now know what to look for, what not...though I must admit something new that I just learned, that homozygous snowcaps & few spots will have pink feet, or hardly any stripes at all. Neat to know!
http://www.dailypost.com/~santee/appcoatpatterns.htm
That's the article, I would suggest any appy breeders to read it over, it is very informative and I wouldn't have a darned clue if it weren't for that article! I now know what to look for, what not...though I must admit something new that I just learned, that homozygous snowcaps & few spots will have pink feet, or hardly any stripes at all. Neat to know!
Little Wee Horse Farm
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minilocosinclair -- My snowcaps are true snowcaps as they are from two appy parents, but they have striped feet. Sometimes, they are born without striped feet, having the light colored hooves. Then, gradually, at different times, the stripes come on. All of those I've pictured here have striped feet, so I respectfully disagree on that one. I've seen stripes appear as young as two days or as late as 3 years.
They can, however, have the pink foot. We've had a suspected homozygous colt from two appys who was born with dark pink hooves. He also had a solid-looking coat on him when he was born. And extreme sky eyes. Hooves stayed pink. The possibly homozygous part was verified by Sheila Archer of the Appaloosa Project. I partially agree with you, but don't agree that all "homozygous" apps have pink, unstriped hooves.
Since it's one of my pet peeves (not YOUR fault, for sure), I emphasize that I use "homozygous" in regard to apps with caution. There are no PROVEN homozygous patterns for appy YET.......but they are SUSPECTED homozygous. To say, something is homozygous & appy is, right now, scientifically incorrect.
They can, however, have the pink foot. We've had a suspected homozygous colt from two appys who was born with dark pink hooves. He also had a solid-looking coat on him when he was born. And extreme sky eyes. Hooves stayed pink. The possibly homozygous part was verified by Sheila Archer of the Appaloosa Project. I partially agree with you, but don't agree that all "homozygous" apps have pink, unstriped hooves.
Since it's one of my pet peeves (not YOUR fault, for sure), I emphasize that I use "homozygous" in regard to apps with caution. There are no PROVEN homozygous patterns for appy YET.......but they are SUSPECTED homozygous. To say, something is homozygous & appy is, right now, scientifically incorrect.
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You are entirely correct about the few spot and snowcap patterns. Here's a bit more info... with a few spot, you will get a variety of patterns from roans and leopards, etc..... but with a snowcap, it is basicly 'hip patterns'. Also, a horse having characteristics is included in the 'colored appy' grouping when they say they are born 'colored'.
As a long time breeder of the big Appies since the early 70's (ew, I am dating myself), I find the characteristics are either there at birth, or are not. With the Minis, I have witnessed one with my very own eyes that developed them, and spots, later. Many of my appy foals in the Minis have not been born with striped feet or mottling, but did have sclera and the rest came later.... usually by a year old or so and more as the horse aged.
Gene's article is great - he is a premier breeder of Appaloosas and POA's for more years than I would want to count.
As a long time breeder of the big Appies since the early 70's (ew, I am dating myself), I find the characteristics are either there at birth, or are not. With the Minis, I have witnessed one with my very own eyes that developed them, and spots, later. Many of my appy foals in the Minis have not been born with striped feet or mottling, but did have sclera and the rest came later.... usually by a year old or so and more as the horse aged.
Gene's article is great - he is a premier breeder of Appaloosas and POA's for more years than I would want to count.
MiniHoofBeats
Well-Known Member
Little Wee Horse Farm: The pink hooves thing is something I just heard someone mention, of all my studying I have never heard of that being a necessity in order to be homozygous, just another possible pattern that can help you to detect a homozygous (that is how I thought of it anyhow). Sorry, I wasn't saying that pink hooves were required in order to have a homozygous appy, I wasn't meaning to demean you or anyone.
I am still newly learning about appaloosa's, just to make it clear to everyone I am an appy newbie and still learning! LOL!
But I do have to admit, ever since hearing the thing about pink hooves, i've noticed more and more snowcaps with pink hooves and/or minimal hoof striping! Weird how you really don't notice things until they are pointed out to you!
I LOVE the topic of appies and learning about their coat color patterns...if anyone has any other articles to read like the one I posted above I would LOVE to read them!
I am still newly learning about appaloosa's, just to make it clear to everyone I am an appy newbie and still learning! LOL!
But I do have to admit, ever since hearing the thing about pink hooves, i've noticed more and more snowcaps with pink hooves and/or minimal hoof striping! Weird how you really don't notice things until they are pointed out to you!
I LOVE the topic of appies and learning about their coat color patterns...if anyone has any other articles to read like the one I posted above I would LOVE to read them!
MiniHoofBeats
Well-Known Member
And of course this is my favorite part here from the article above:
"Having 100 percent color/characteristics production does not mean a horse is homozygous. Only by genetic testing or breeding a minimum of 10-15 non-characteristic or out-crossed mares can a stallion's potential homozygosity be determined. Since a regular registered Appaloosa mare can contribute to color production, a stallion's production potential can't be tested adequately unless foals have been produced from non-characteristic (N/C) or out-crossed mares. (Note: mare owners should be extremely cautious of 100 percent color claims advertised in Appaloosa Journal. This research has found cases in which 100 percent color was true for a first foal crop of usually two or three foals. Such claims are accurate but misleading because they imply a color-producing potential that can't be justified, especially when pictures and pedigrees of the respective stallions are analyzed. More mares must be bred, especially out-crossed or N/C mares, before a 100 percent color claim can begin to predict colored foals from future breedings.)"
In short, an appy shouldn't be claimed as homozygous unless he/she has had at least 10-15 colored foals....
anyone agree with this or ??? I think it sounds logical, if you have an appy that has only 2-3 foals on the ground that have color, neat! But it could just be a good year.
Sorry I hope no one takes this as snotty, I am only pointing it out because i think it is really neat to know!!! I can't wait until further research is done, i'd love to join but I am too new, don't want to get my feet wet in foaling just yet.... =)
Anyone out there currently breeding appies and recording foals to work on the homozygous project???
"Having 100 percent color/characteristics production does not mean a horse is homozygous. Only by genetic testing or breeding a minimum of 10-15 non-characteristic or out-crossed mares can a stallion's potential homozygosity be determined. Since a regular registered Appaloosa mare can contribute to color production, a stallion's production potential can't be tested adequately unless foals have been produced from non-characteristic (N/C) or out-crossed mares. (Note: mare owners should be extremely cautious of 100 percent color claims advertised in Appaloosa Journal. This research has found cases in which 100 percent color was true for a first foal crop of usually two or three foals. Such claims are accurate but misleading because they imply a color-producing potential that can't be justified, especially when pictures and pedigrees of the respective stallions are analyzed. More mares must be bred, especially out-crossed or N/C mares, before a 100 percent color claim can begin to predict colored foals from future breedings.)"
In short, an appy shouldn't be claimed as homozygous unless he/she has had at least 10-15 colored foals....
anyone agree with this or ??? I think it sounds logical, if you have an appy that has only 2-3 foals on the ground that have color, neat! But it could just be a good year.
Sorry I hope no one takes this as snotty, I am only pointing it out because i think it is really neat to know!!! I can't wait until further research is done, i'd love to join but I am too new, don't want to get my feet wet in foaling just yet.... =)
Anyone out there currently breeding appies and recording foals to work on the homozygous project???
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
I think if you have a Fewspot that looks like a Fewspot and that you have reason to believe is a Fewspot AND it has had four out of four Appy foals o/o solid mares, + all Appy foals o/o Appy mares, you would have reason to believe, in all fairness that it was a Fewspot.
I have seen an awful lot of "Varnish" animals and animals with a few spots, claimed to be fewspots. Maybe people just don't understand?? But I have found that, at around this point, these threads start getting very heated!!!!
I have seen an awful lot of "Varnish" animals and animals with a few spots, claimed to be fewspots. Maybe people just don't understand?? But I have found that, at around this point, these threads start getting very heated!!!!
MiniHoofBeats
Well-Known Member
I know what you mean, but you know it's only because someone is feeling "beaten on" by a comment said...as I explained I'm not here to put anyone down, i'm just writing what I have read and it's not aimed at anyone here!!!!
Obviously if I had a stallion that had 4/4 appy foals from non-appy mares, duh I would totally believe I have a homozygous stallion! There are a lot more homozygous appies out there than a lot of us think there are, they aren't all that rare to come by, just takes time and breeding to know if they are true homo's or just lookalikes....either way, I say if you have the confirmation, it's a win/win situation, appy or not at least the foals will be awesome!
Obviously if I had a stallion that had 4/4 appy foals from non-appy mares, duh I would totally believe I have a homozygous stallion! There are a lot more homozygous appies out there than a lot of us think there are, they aren't all that rare to come by, just takes time and breeding to know if they are true homo's or just lookalikes....either way, I say if you have the confirmation, it's a win/win situation, appy or not at least the foals will be awesome!
Yes, MiniLoco, I agree with that statement. I have seen 'false snowcaps' - when one parent is an appy and the other is not.
You must know what is behind the horse in pedigree- it helps anyhow, to know that BOTH parents are truly Appy for it to be homozygous.
I have a great example of the roan that now looks like a few spot. She has always had a foal with at LEAST characteristics at birth, plus a colt with spots over his rear and her first foal, by my first appy stallion, was a snowcap.
However, I would NOT say that she is homozygous at all and is a roan to be sure, as she was born solid black and slowly colored over about 5 years to what she is now. I had someone mention my 'few spot' mare, and had to tell them that she is a roan, not few spot. She has also only been bred to Appaloosa stallions (two previously) and is now expecting her first foal by my Renegade. Ha, needless to say I am VERY excited about that!
A few spot is born just that- a few spot, as is a snowcap. They dont develope into one later.
I have seen many grayed out horses advertised as few spots (OUCH!!!) or as 'ghost leopards', etc.... (not even sure where that term came from) but they are simply carrying the gray gene and have lost their contrasting color.
A great source of information here is Ginny at CCMF (now owns the sire of my stallion Legacy). She has answered some of my 'Mini Appy' questions when I first got started in the Minis.
You must know what is behind the horse in pedigree- it helps anyhow, to know that BOTH parents are truly Appy for it to be homozygous.
I have a great example of the roan that now looks like a few spot. She has always had a foal with at LEAST characteristics at birth, plus a colt with spots over his rear and her first foal, by my first appy stallion, was a snowcap.
However, I would NOT say that she is homozygous at all and is a roan to be sure, as she was born solid black and slowly colored over about 5 years to what she is now. I had someone mention my 'few spot' mare, and had to tell them that she is a roan, not few spot. She has also only been bred to Appaloosa stallions (two previously) and is now expecting her first foal by my Renegade. Ha, needless to say I am VERY excited about that!
A few spot is born just that- a few spot, as is a snowcap. They dont develope into one later.
I have seen many grayed out horses advertised as few spots (OUCH!!!) or as 'ghost leopards', etc.... (not even sure where that term came from) but they are simply carrying the gray gene and have lost their contrasting color.
A great source of information here is Ginny at CCMF (now owns the sire of my stallion Legacy). She has answered some of my 'Mini Appy' questions when I first got started in the Minis.
Tammie-C_Spots
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This guy is a false snowcap- looks just like a true snowcap but I know he's not because his sire is a roan. Dam is an appy. RR BAtata de Falabella (Buzzy). He's a gelding now and won tons of AMHA and AMHR classes in hunter and jumper
Tammie
L
Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis
Guest
I am not one who is up on my appy patterns although to my knowledge there is no test yet for homozygous however I do know that my few spot is out of and by appies. SO far all of her foals have been appy(most loud blankets to shoulders or leopard) with the exception of the last 2 which are pintaloosas (sire was pinto who has had all pintos but one)
both foals which are full brother and sister while obvious pintos have mottling, scelera the colt has a couple of spots although they could be confused with pinto markings even though the are the size of a pea.. the filly is a coming yearling and hasnt been clipped yet to see what is under there but she is getting more mottled as time goes on.
However i am not a huge appy fan and she is my only appy mare I got her cause years ago I had a palomino leopard appy out of her and I loved him so how could I turn her down
both foals which are full brother and sister while obvious pintos have mottling, scelera the colt has a couple of spots although they could be confused with pinto markings even though the are the size of a pea.. the filly is a coming yearling and hasnt been clipped yet to see what is under there but she is getting more mottled as time goes on.
However i am not a huge appy fan and she is my only appy mare I got her cause years ago I had a palomino leopard appy out of her and I loved him so how could I turn her down
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Here are some of our snowcaps!!!!
SIX GEMS COLOR ME SPOTTED, identified as a few spot/snowcap combination pattern by Gene Carr.
SIX GEMS SPIRITED SON
SIX GEMS UPTOWN GIRL
SIX GEMS SPOTTED THUNDER
SIX GEMS SPOTTED CREATION
SIX GEMS GOD'S WILL
SIX GEMS COLOR ME SPOTTED, identified as a few spot/snowcap combination pattern by Gene Carr.
SIX GEMS SPIRITED SON
SIX GEMS UPTOWN GIRL
SIX GEMS SPOTTED THUNDER
SIX GEMS SPOTTED CREATION
SIX GEMS GOD'S WILL
Dorrie & Frank
Well-Known Member
I think these guys are varnished apps - ? this is father and son - father's sire is Trio Dream maker - a blanket app and his Dam is Starlight's Reflection - a gorgeous powder blue roan - she goes back to Orion.
Father, Mar Jacs Unique Design (Neki) at one week and as a yearling:
[SIZE=14pt]Better pictures of Neki at[/SIZE] Neki's Page
This is Buddy - WindRiders Uniquely Diabolical at one week and now:
They are both light blue with a white blanket and peacock spots in the blanket - note that the only difference is dad's star.
Father, Mar Jacs Unique Design (Neki) at one week and as a yearling:
[SIZE=14pt]Better pictures of Neki at[/SIZE] Neki's Page
This is Buddy - WindRiders Uniquely Diabolical at one week and now:
They are both light blue with a white blanket and peacock spots in the blanket - note that the only difference is dad's star.
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Lost Spoke Ranch
Well-Known Member
Here are our two!
[SIZE=14pt]CCMF Legacy's Color Maker[/SIZE] Near Few Spot and Ginny mentioned the only one to date sired by Carousel Designer Legacy.
[SIZE=14pt]Little America's D. S. Dream Catcher[/SIZE]Red Snowcap
Watch for D. S. Dream Catcher foals beginning this spring.
Dawn
[SIZE=14pt]CCMF Legacy's Color Maker[/SIZE] Near Few Spot and Ginny mentioned the only one to date sired by Carousel Designer Legacy.
[SIZE=14pt]Little America's D. S. Dream Catcher[/SIZE]Red Snowcap
Watch for D. S. Dream Catcher foals beginning this spring.
Dawn
