Laser measuring device! Sounds like something the

[Devon]

I would definatly agree with what people said and what is so frustrating; the fact that it comes down to what they call the last hair of the mane and how they allow a horse to stand and how they level the stick. My mare measured 36.75 ; 36.5"; 36.25; and 35.75 this year

Explain that to me? I don't really care shes not 34 and shes not 38 so you can measure her anything in between for all I care she's not going under or over lol just thought it was interesting

 

[~Lisa~]

If you let other people touch your horse from time to time it wouldnt be an issue...its called socializing

LOL

thanks I know what socializing a horse is however a high strung horse in a new enviroment with over 1200 other horses - people coming and going all hours of the day and night, hustle bustle- and completely different schedule that one can not duplicate at home tends to lead to a nervous animal and a horse being slightly nervous as I am sure you know can effect their height measurement

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I can see the sense in someone else setting the horse up, but I can also see the problems. It matters not one bit how well you socialise your horse, every now and again there will come a horse who just does not behave for other people as well as he or she behaves for you, I have such a mare. She is fine with me but she just does not show as well for someone else, no matter how sensitive they are!

So she would not set up as well for a stranger, and she is on the cusp, height wise, so for a stranger, no matter how well they handled her, she could go over.

It is not an issue unless your horse is borderline, of course.

Since this can be a problem it would be the excuse trotted out to enable a remeasuring, every time a slightly "over" horse got measured over, so I do not see this working, even though I think it is a good idea.

I do think it is about time the AMHA and the AMHR got in line with the rest of the horse world, and measured to the withers.

We have a real problem with American horses and height, and, in order to accommodate them two of our societies have had to raise their height limit to 38"!!!!!!

The BMHS is the only remaining society that insists on 34" to the withers.

It would be easy enough to do, really, and it is obvious that TPTB just do not have the motivation.

But come on, we did get them moving on the colour front, if we really wanted this we could get it done.

The last debacle over height was, I think in hind sight, a deliberate ploy to put us off asking for a to the withers height.

 

[~Lisa~]

The last debacle over height was, I think in hind sight, a deliberate ploy to put us off asking for a to the withers height.

Hmm interesting I never thought of it that way but can surely see your point there

 

[Katiean]

One thing I just thought of is "Just how level is the surface you are measuring on?". Do they put a level on the ground length and width of where you are measuring? No matter what you use to measure, if the ground is not level your measurement will always be off. Also depending on how recently you had their feet trimmed you will get different measurements. Just a thought.

 

[Sandy B]

This is an article that came in one of my E mags. It sure sounds interesting!
Measuring Ponies: Laser Device Might Give More Accurate Height

by: Marie Rosenthal

September 29 2009, Article # 14991

A laser device for measuring horses and ponies might give more reliable and objective measurements than a traditional stick, researchers said. Ponies currently competing in Fédération Equestre Internationale (FEI) events must not measure more than 151 cm with shoes or 150 cm without shoes when measured at the event.

Researchers working on a recent study repeatedly measured 15 research horses and 38 ponies at home and at competitions.

"Using a laser device to measure the height at the withers of horses or ponies has the advantage that the measurer is not able to influence the outcome," the authors wrote.

A person can decrease the measurement slightly by pushing down on the horizontal arm of a measuring stick, but cannot do that with the laser device used in the study, a prototype made by Sensor Partners BV of The Netherlands.

"What surprised us was that the ponies tended to be higher at home compared with during competition. This was contrary to what was expected," said said Marianne M. Sloet van Oldruitenborgh-Oosterbaan DVM, PhD, Dipl. ECEIM, Specialist KNMvD Equine Internal Medicine. "That expectation was the reason why the FEI allows ponies to be slightly (2 cm) higher when they are measured during competition."

The study, "Measuring the height at the withers of ponies at a competition and at home using a laser device," will be published in the November edition of The Veterinary Journal.

At the AMHA World (My first time to watch) I thought measuring was a joke. I had never actually seen it done at a show before. The horses were pretty stretched and in some cases horses front legs were spread a foot or more apart and backs poked to shorten the horse. Thats not a real height measurement! A horse should be standing square, that means front legs running perpendicular to the ground and for the hind legs there should almost be some sort of tool that lines the the horses legs to the ground perpendicular. Maybe a string level hung off the croup and ran down the back of the legs, say the fetlock can not go past the string. I know this sounds far fetched and maybe just a bit crazy, but the measuring at the World WAS crazy and quite a show.

 

[Miniv]

Personally, I think it's at least something that should be looked into........

End of subject, for now..... I would like to learn more......

 

[Jill]

What's frustrating is that this "conversation" happens every single year around this time and I mean EVERY year. I don't like that it has the potential to detract from the pride winners feel in how their horses have done. But I also cannot stand that each year, it's the same old "controversy" again and again and again. Nothing ever is resolved, people are always ticked off, and I know that next October, we'll have these same kinds of discussions about getting our little horses measured correctly at the big year-end shows. I don't know how far back the archives go but I know that I've been a part of this forum for 7 or 8 years and it's been the same thing each fall.

 

[bevann]

I've been in Minis for 20 years and it was going on when I first started.I was a witness to measuring many years ago and boy was it a circus.People cussing the person measuring and taking horses back and trimming feet to the point the poor things were limping.There has got to be a solution sometime.

 

[MiLo Minis]

What's frustrating is that this "conversation" happens every single year around this time and I mean EVERY year. I don't like that it has the potential to detract from the pride winners feel in how their horses have done. But I also cannot stand that each year, it's the same old "controversy" again and again and again. Nothing ever is resolved, people are always ticked off, and I know that next October, we'll have these same kinds of discussions about getting our little horses measured correctly at the big year-end shows. I don't know how far back the archives go but I know that I've been a part of this forum for 7 or 8 years and it's been the same thing each fall.

Sorry Jill, the article was delivered to my email now not in the spring or I would have posted this thread then. I read the article, was intrigued, thought it would be very appropriate for our registries to use and so posted it. No offense was intended and I certainly had no intention of taking any glory away from National winners - I brought home ribbons myself that I am very proud of.

Laser levels are very accurate and allow for discrepencies in the measuring surface on which the animals are stood. There would be no stick to touch the animals backs to make them nervous for whatever reason. The owner/handler could stand back from the horse with a loose lead and the level would not have to be anywhere close enough to make the horses uncomfortable or tense. Sounds like a good deal all around to me. I don't think they should be reserved for the "BIG year end shows" but should be in use by all stewards all the time. The fact that this topic does come up repeatedly tells me that it is a big concern that needs to be addressed and this seems like one possibly viable solution. Nothing will ever stop a cheater but these laser sticks may help make it more difficult for at least some.

 

[krissy3]

I've been in Minis for 20 years and it was going on when I first started.I was a witness to measuring many years ago and boy was it a circus.People cussing the person measuring and taking horses back and trimming feet to the point the poor things were limping.There has got to be a solution sometime.

THANK YOU THANK YOU...YES, and the pin in the back , and the stretching ... It makes me sad that its become such a competetive show world. Sorry about the socalizing but you GOT to do it for the horse... I have a very hot mare, she MUST be able to have cows with cow bells walking by , sheep with bells , goats ,kids on bicycles, we walk on a cobble stone streets with tour busses that go by giving us about 1 foot of space, tractors, cross country skiiers going by etc etc.... and any child or adult can go into my pasture and pet all of my horses without a problem.. they can all still show well. If you dont train these horses to accept being handled by others , and you have to sell them for some reason later , you will have a difficult time, especially as they get older , and are no longer "winning". (isnt that what its all about for most of you?) An unsocialized horse is more likely to end up on a slaughter truck then , lets say, retiring from showing and working as a therapy horse. You are crazy to not expect your horse to behave for a stranger. Its like raising a spoiled rotten bratty child...."show "horse or not. The horse will be fine with a stranger ... I believe its the "owner" that has the flippen meltdown. Take a chill pill , and let the horse be a horse and not a china doll.

 

[Minimor]

seriously, all it takes is for the steward to be able to measure accurately--and perhaps the laser measure would be more accurate than the sticks currently used--at the right spot on the horse's topline....and for that steward to be able to stand up to the handler & tell him/her that until the horse is set up properly no measurement will be taken. As long as a handler is standing the horse spraddle legged, pulling up on its head and pushing down on its back--no measurement!

I don't think that a string of anonymous handlers should be required, just stewards that can & will stand up to exhibitors and say no, you are not in accordance with the rules and will get no measurement...and for show management and the registry to stand behind that steward and back him/her up. Exhibitors can either follow the rules or not show I just don't see that it should be so hard--though of course it would be easier if the stewards were people not normally associated with the breed. It is awkward (though in an ideal world it shouldn't be!) for a steward to stand up to an owner/handler/trainer today and say no, you'll get no measurement from me as long as you're standing the horse up like that, and then next weekend that steward is an exhibitor while the owner/handler/trainer is now the judge.

I am quite sure that as things stand now, even if there were anonymous handlers to take the horses for measuring there would still be a lot of arguing, threats, intimidation and complaining going on, even though it would be channelled differently than it now is.

 

[Karen S]

Good Morning all,

Back in 2000 when Area V held our National Convention in Dallas, the host club DID bring in horses for the Stewards committee and Stewards meeting that year. Ms. Jean Brown was over the ASPC/AMHR Stewards then. We brought in several horses, Shetlands and Miniatures for the Stewards to learn how to measure, where to find the last hair of the main (and yes there is a difference even when you "try" to make the mane look longer) and where the withers are on a Shetland. There has not been one time since 2000 that the Stewards have had this kind of training. I would think that every year at Convention for the Stewards meeting that they would have a "refresher" course on measuring. This year it's in Florida and I know that there are several farms that would probably be more than happy to oblige in supplying the horses.

Don't know about AMHA since they really don't have carded Stewards, but would bet money, most of them are also members of the ASPC/AMHR and that they would/could pay the convention fee of $25 and come to the Stewards meeting and sit in on it too.

Karen

 

[bevann]

Even if we did not have outside handlers maybe outside the Mini world measurers would be a step in the right direction.I agree that if they had some clout it might solve some of the problems.I have been at shows and witnessed the measuring official ask the person with the horse"Where do you want it to be?"what does that tell you about the accuracy of measuring?

 

[Karen S]

When a horse is brought to a Steward, ( I'll use the Shetlands, since we have four divisions, Foundations, Classics, Modern and Modern Pleasure's) there are vast differences in the height catagories and shoeing requirements. A Steward doesn't know if a horse is going into a Foundation class or a Classic thus the reason for asking the question. For show purpose only, a Foundation Shetland can't go over 42". I can see where the question would fall if a Miniature is right at the top of 34", question is asked so that the Steward CAN make sure the Miniature falls where it needs to be. If that Steward gets 34 1/4 then that upper height miniature is "over". I know a owner would rather take that Miniature back, maybe trim or file just a little on the hooves, look at the heel and make any necessary corrections without harming the animal. Then take it back to be re-measured. Remember we only get three tries before they are considered out.

Yes, I too have watched many a measuring at our club shows with different Stewards and those that we hire do a great job at measuring all animals correctly. If you are showing on a 60 day measurement card and get protested for a height discrepency, how much do YOU think your horse grew during that time? Bone growth will come into play on the younger horses, but what most people forget is the hoof. There are more people than not that stretch out their trimmings from 4 to 8 weeks before a farrier comes back out mainly due to cost.

I will repeat again my original post....would like to see one set up.....how cumbersome is it going to be for the Stewards to haul....and what is the cost factor. I know about laser levels for I have use one when I hang pictures on the wall to be sure they are level.

Karen

 

[~Lisa~]

Sorry about the socalizing but you GOT to do it for the horse... I have a very hot mare, she MUST be able to have cows with cow bells walking by , sheep with bells , goats ,kids on bicycles, we walk on a cobble stone streets with tour busses that go by giving us about 1 foot of space, tractors, cross country skiiers going by etc etc.... and any child or adult can go into my pasture and pet all of my horses without a problem.. they can all still show well. If you dont train these horses to accept being handled by others , and you have to sell them for some reason later , you will have a difficult time, especially as they get older , and are no longer "winning". (isnt that what its all about for most of you?)

Wow... . Winning is not what it is all about for many of us. People show to win. Very few spend the hundreds of dollars for a local show to go and lose. If showing to win is not your thing- that is great however do not assume that those who are competitive are bad horse owners. Not every person who shows in fact the huge majority do not put pins or tacks in horses backs or all the things you read about here on this forum.

If you have a "hot" horse who can walk behind street cars and walk next to big tour buses with less then a foot of leeway that is great. That is not something I would choose to do even with the calmest of horses cause a horse is a horse after all and at any given moment even the most bomb proof horse can spook and endanger everyone in quarters that close although a small horse and a tour bus it is obvious who would be on the losing end. However that is just my choice- I understand and respect you feel differently.

I have a horse who is a true 38 inches on the dot. She is a aged mare and has been 38 inches her whole career. As you can see even slightly tense can surely change her measurement as it can with a horse that is even 37 inches. So yes these things can make a difference. And no she has not had anything cruel done to her to measure in she is the height she is period.

I would not want the liability of handing a horse off to someone else to handle again a horse is a horse and even the calmest of animals can react in a way no one saw coming especially at a large horse show with 1000+ horses and all that comes with it.

My horses are well mannered and hot does not mean wild and untouchable at least not in my definition. I have a 12 yr old who has been handling all of my horses since she was 2. She has in fact handled the stallions while breeding since she was about 9 it is not about having wild crazy horses who will end up on a slaughter truck- it is about when .25 or .50 of an inch makes a difference in your horse measuring in a height group you want to do what is fair and will not punish those who are not "cheating"

It comes down to stewards being able to freely say no way this horse is to big without worry of reprecussions. We could measure any way in the world but until that happens we will be having this conversation.

 

[horsefeather]

OK, I probably should keep my mouth shut

but then it wouldn't be me.

First, I am a steward. NO ONE wants to be more honest than me!! However, with that said, there are many enigmas that must be brought into the conversation. Did the horse just arrive and come right to me off of the trailer?? Believe me, these things I am going to mention DO make a difference, especially for those that are right on the line (my horse has measured all year at 32" and now you measure him at 32 1/2".) Have you just given your horse a bath? Is it chilly when you are measuring? He won't stand still, so are you roughing him up? Jerking on him/her trying to make it stand still instead of trying to calm it down? When I am measuring, I tell everyone to take your time, I'm not in a hurry. If you are, because you are late and your class is 2 or 3 classes away, don't blame the steward or the horse. You should have left earlier so you wouldn't be rushed. Most of you know this, but just as a refresher, when you have the lead of your horse, it's really a telegraph to him/her. If his/her person is frusterated, or rushing, then the horse thinks...Wow, something is wrong because of the way my human is acting so I'd better look out for whatever it is, it might harm me. When was your horse trimmed last? Was he/she trimmed correctly? This year alone I had several horses come to measure and they had been trimmed on one side, but not the other??? Now, I will bend the rules sometimes. For instance, went to a show in April. It was SO cold that even with coats on people were shivering. The rules say to completely undress your horse....the first couple of horses were and they immediately began shivering, hard. I made a decision that you could leave your horse dressed, just pull enough blanket back for a measurement. Now, I know the rules, and I know that was wrong, but for the horse's sake I wasn't going to make them go naked. Besides, when they are like that it takes a really long time to get a correct measurment. As for being level. Yes, I carry a level and actually USE it. I find the most level spot and so far have been able to find somewhere its actually almost perfectly level. That's why I use the tape. That spot is the best spot for measurements. And lastly, if you have read all this way, there are some things that happen which I have NO control over. Believe me when I tell you that the steward has NO authority! Really! All I can do is show someone the rules and write a report about something that might happen that goes against the rules.

P.S. Last thought. I do show, but I show for fun. The trainers and judges do not scare or intimidate me. If they place me, great, if they don't, so be it.

Thanks for letting me go on.

Pam

 

[Minimor]

I would not want the liability of handing a horse off to someone else to handle again a horse is a horse and even the calmest of animals can react in a way no one saw coming especially at a large horse show with 1000+ horses and all that comes with it.My horses are well mannered and hot does not mean wild and untouchable at least not in my definition. I have a 12 yr old who has been handling all of my horses since she was 2. She has in fact handled the stallions while breeding since she was about 9 it is not about having wild crazy horses who will end up on a slaughter truck- it is about when .25 or .50 of an inch makes a difference in your horse measuring in a height group you want to do what is fair and will not punish those who are not "cheating"

It comes down to stewards being able to freely say no way this horse is to big without worry of reprecussions. We could measure any way in the world but until that happens we will be having this conversation.

Well said Lisa.
Hot most assuredly doesn't mean wild, ding bat, uncontrollable child killer! And it is entirely possible to sell them on to someone that offers a good home as opposed to the kill buyer even if they haven't been 'socialized' by being handled by everyone and their kids. Some of them would never make therapy horses no matter how many people handled them but IMO that's okay too--there is a life for horses even if they aren't therapy horses

And to be quite honest, sometimes it would be kinder to euthanize a horse rather than sell him to certain people--and that's ANY horse, not just the hot show horse type that hasn't seen a lot of different handlers, I mean it for the quietest of family horses too. I absolutely would euthanize before I would sell to some people.

 

[Jill]

Sorry Jill, the article was delivered to my email now not in the spring or I would have posted this thread then. I read the article, was intrigued, thought it would be very appropriate for our registries to use and so posted it. No offense was intended and I certainly had no intention of taking any glory away from National winners ...

There's no need to tell me you're sorry, Lori. When I said I'm more than a little tired of hearing the measuring discussion / complaining year after year right after Nationals or Worlds, I wasn't thinking of you or ANY specific individual. I think you've been around LB for at least a couple of years, so I think you probably are aware that each and every fall, "we" have several threads revolving around what a joke the measuring is, how much we wish it was better, and ways to improve it. However, it's not that "we" are currently unable to correctly measure a mini. It's that not everyone wants a correct measurement (owners, trainers, stewards........).

 

[user 488]

However, it's not that "we" are currently unable to correctly measure a mini. It's that not everyone wants a correct measurement (owners, trainers, stewards........).

Perfectly said as we have all heard this story for as long as I can remember and we all know it isn't rocket science.