Kicking

[Grace67]

I have two mini geldings who share a large stall/turnout area and for the most part get along pretty well. The 10 year old gelding is the dominant horse and most times it just takes a pin of his ears to get the 4 year old gelding to move off the hay pile or away from the gate, etc. Occasionally they'll get into a bit of a kicking match, usually if they've been tearing around the arena together, the older gelding will say he's had enough and give a couple swift kicks at the younger one and up to last week that's been enough and the younger one backs off. Last week after several stormy days being locked in I turned them out together in our arena and they were running around playing when the older gelding had enough and tossed a few kicks out, well apparently the younger gelding didn't want to back down this time and they went at it pretty hard for a couple minutes, squealing and really really kicking at each other. A few hours later they were standing next to each other waiting to be fed and its obvious the older gelding is still in charge.

However I've noticed for the past week after this incident that my younger gelding is now turning his butt towards ME when I come in to feed or give him some scratches on the neck, etc. He hasn't attempted a kick at me yet (no ear pinning or lifting a leg but definitely is swinging his butt in my direction and swishing his tail) but this is NOT okay in my book and I feel like perhaps he's testing my position in the herd or is he just being a brat? I've always expected good ground and stall manners out of my horses both big and little and never tolerated butts being swung towards me for any reason. I've been carrying my dressage whip with me now when I go in with them to feed or clean and give him a hard swat on the rear if he even attempts to swing towards me, with my big horses I always sent them off and then made them work when they did something similar but honestly never had to do more than twice before they got the idea in their heads that this was not acceptable behavior. This little guy doesn't seem to quite get "it" as I've had to do it more than a few times......is my timing off or should I be trying something different? I don't want them to be afraid of me but I do not tolerate kicking or biting in any form and want them to feel as though their lives are in danger should they attempt to do so. The 4 year old is a good sized gelding at about 37 inches and his kicks can pack quite a punch if they hit their intended target.

 

[KingsLuckyNight]

I think he's being a little bit of both. You are correct, butt turning is wrong wrong wrong. Doesn't matter how small its still wrong. Just keep punishing him maybe try a pop on the butt if he keeps trying. If he's testing you, which Ithink he is. He'll continue to do so till you sit him straight. For some horses it takes longer for them to realize your the one in charge not him.

 

[shalakominiatureshowhorses]

I think your doing the right thing. Carrying a crop is the best thing you can do. I have the crop with the leather hand, only for things like this. My only suggestions are,

As soon as he starts to turn at you, pop him in the butt.

If one doesnt do it, pop him twice fast.

If he is in a stall, make him go into the back. He needs to know your not joking.

If he is in a pasture, just make him leave.

Hope this helps!

 

[Merogsrha]

I have the same problem with my boy Rusty. He thinks he is king tut of everything. I recently got a small crop to pop him one when he turns his rear towards me- though he seems unfased by it LoL. Hoping to get set up to start working some P&V out of him

 

[Indian*R*A*I*N*Dance]

My horse does that to my mom too, swinging his butt in her direction. He will try it on me sometimes to be a brat and try to show his dominance and I don't tolerate it. I'm not afraid of him kicking me and most defiantly not afraid to kick him back. I usually push his butt away with my body or walk up to his shoulder and push him away that way. I'll say 'Don't you dare" in a deep deep voice and he backs off. I'll just keep walking towards his shoulder until he is on the other side of the paddock and learns to mind his own space. He has gotten much better as he has gotten older. some horses will catch on slower or faster than others.

He is defiantly testing your position in the herd. My mom will go in with a a crop also when he gets bratty, giving him a tap or two on the rear when he swings his butt. Don't show fear or hesitation and use your voice if you have to and tell him no. Stand tall and tell him to back off, don't just ask. My horse knows my mom is afraid of him so he will push all of her buttons.

 

[AnnaC]

I agree that any threats witth either the rear or front end should not be allowed, but would also wonder why he has suddenly started this? Is he worried about his share of the hay? If you are stalling them together do they have enough space, are there several piles of hay available, is it possible that the older gelding has been bullying him during the night?? When they are out in the day is there plenty of space for them to chase about in (not just your arena) and, if you have to put hay out do you place lots of small piles around the space rather than ask them to share just one or two piles??

Lots of questions I know, but I do feel that while you must correct him for his behaviour, you must also try to work out why it might have started in the first place.

Good luck!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Turning the rear end is also a defensive move- nothing at all to do with kicking, and you need to be sure that this is not what is happening before you"punish" anyone for anything. Time and again I see on here that swinging the rear end should be "punished" and this is just not the case. In some cases you could end up with a really confused, thoroughly frightened animal. A horse will swing it's rear towards you if it is startled or feels threatened. If what Anna is suggesting were to be happening, your gelding might be reacting towards you in fear, not aggression. If you "punish" this you will damage the relationship, possibly severely. You need to stand back and look hard at the big picture before any thoughts of crops and bopping are even thought about....

 

[Lil Eowyn]

Lil Eowyn Kicks all of the time! She kicked my little brother once (not serious but still,) so thats when I decided she need to learn a lesson--I bring a lead rope/stick/plastic baseball bat when I go in her pasture. When I try to go to her side she kicks out so everytime she does that I whack her. She's getting ALOT better.

 

[Minimor]

Thank you rabbitsfizz-excellent point you make, and one that so many people totally miss when dealing with this issue!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I just do get very tired of the instant conclusion that the horse MUST be acting out of aggression when, I truly feel, at least 80% of them are just being horses- a herbivore whose flight reaction is restricted by a stall, and who then reacts in a defensive manner. Hitting the animal under these circumstances...well, if it was me, that would be when I would kick, which would then lead the uneducated to believe they had been correct and the rot sets in and you have a horse that kicks.

We really do need to see these things from the horses point of view a little more before jumping in with the "hit it with a crop" advise, I think......

If a horse swings it's backside to me, but offers nothing more, it gets ignored, or, if it is in reach, it gets scratched. It odes not get whacked, or even shouted at....

 

[Minimor]

Me too! A rear end comes my way and it gets scratched, or I give it a pat on the rump. It would be different if the horse's overall body language told me he was going to take a kick at me, and that the kick was an act of aggression and not just a defense he used because I didn't announce my presence and he didn't know it was me behind him. I always let them know it is me behind them--it is not fair (or smart) to startle a horse into kicking and then punish him for defending himself from (in his mind) "danger".

 

[Margo_C-T]

Agree 100% with Rabbitsfizz' posts and Minimor's, just above!

Margo(62 continuous years of close contact w/ horses, and STILL always learning)

 

[Danielleee]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't punish butt swinging! I've noticed its just a thing minis do. Almost all of ours do it and theres only one that I move out of the way for cause he's kicked me before (and it wasn't when he swung his butt towards me) but I don't yell at him when he does it cause thats just asking to get kicked especially in a small space like a stall. But the rest don't offer to kick ever its just something they do. It all comes down to knowing your horse and their body language. If they're actually threatening to kick then yes punish it but if not you're just gonna make things worse on yourself.

 

[Diva's Girl]

When Diva swings her butt at me and I don't feel comfortable with it(usually she is fine, just asking for a butt scratch or generally I just happen to be in her way) I will press my fingers into her side and ask her to move over so that her butt is not facing me. If she pins her ears and raises a hoof at me then I will tell her to knock it off in a firm voice and if she doesn't stop then I will give her a pop on her rump. After that she usually lowers her head and mouths the air letting me know that she is done messing with me. She used to disrespect me a lot and it has taken a lot of time and patience for me to establish a strong bond with her like we have now. Watch him carefully and see what he is telling you or asking of you. See if it is disrespect towards you or if he is trying to communicate with you something more.

 

[Renolizzie]

This is an interesting topic and I am glad to hear of the butt thing being about fear or just something minis do sometimes. I am observing my little guy and he never kicks but he does sometimes turn his butt to me. Gives me some different ideas on why he might do that.

 

[Grace67]

Interesting feedback from all sides and just wanted to clarify a few things as Anna had asked some very good questions. Having had full sized horses for many years (30+) I do feel a bit stymied about why this particular behavior might be starting up without an apparent reason. My two minis share a nice 13 x 13 three sided, matted stall that opens onto a 60 x 60 dry lot turnout which then in turn opens up onto my 100 x 100 small all weather arena. Both horses meander around all three areas 24/7 and I can observe them from my house which sits at the top of a small knoll about 200 feet away. What's interesting is that other than the aforementioned "kick fest" they had with each other a little over a week ago they spend a lot of time together with only a few feet separating them. I find that that there is more ear pinning, butt turning, squealing and kicking out at each other when I'm down at the barn and yes especially at feeding times which is what I would consider normal horse behavior. Its clear that the older gelding is still in charge, all it usually takes is a pin of his ears and a shake of his head to get the younger one out of his "space" and yes he does think that the stall is his but allows the younger gelding access quite a bit. I do space their hay piles out both up inside the stall as well as some out in the turnout area, usually at least three different piles. Often I'll look down and they are eating from the same pile.

That being said I do find that the younger gelding is testing his boundaries with the older gelding more and more, he doesn't move off as quickly as he once did and often pins his ears right back at him. I've owned the older gelding for about 8 months now and the younger one has been here with us since early October so I'm still getting to know his behaviors and quirks. I'm friends with his former owner and do ask her questions when I see something new or something that isn't quite right to me and ask her for help and clarification. She thinks he is testing me especially since we are still new to each other, I know what turning a butt in fear or because a horse is crowded is like and this isn't what he's doing. We're in an open area and I might be carrying some hay out to set in piles and he gets in too close to my personal space and when I "shoo" him off with my voice and hands he turns his butt and starts to hunker down like a horse who might be getting ready to kick but is giving a bit of warning before doing so. I've been making both of them stand outside of the stall and turn towards me before I go in to feed, they have to wait until I say its okay to eat. I expect this from my big horses as well.

We had a stretch of stormy weather for a week or so but now its sunny and warmer and drying out and I was able to work both of them yesterday and today. I think that helps, they get bored and full of energy just like kids do and need to let off steam. Thanks again for all the insight from everyone, very much appreciated.

 

[JAX]

LOL I have a 10 year old Quarter Appy full sized. When people get scared because she backs up to them I have to laugh and show them her major bad habit that I taught her as a foal. I wanted to be sure that she would always be comfortable about me checking her rear end and so I had her learn that when I lifted her tail I would give itchys on either side of her rear end. She is now 10 years old and will follow me around backwards trying to get me to constantly give more and more itchys, she will even raise her tail to one side or the other letting me know which side is in need.

Hindsight is telling me this was not the smartest idea to teach her that as anyone that goes to pet her usually thinks she is going to kick them.

As far as the original post goes i do agree that not every butt towards me is a sign of disrespect. I have gotten new horses that will give me their butts out of fear, those are usually the ones who also tend to somewhat tuck down at the same time, as they lose the fear they usually stop doing this, at least in my experience.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Jax- I did exactly the same with all my Arabs- I did not have a problem with people being scared of my horses, so long as I knew they did not kick, and yes, they all backed up and would, if not actively discouraged, park their backside on me in order to elicit scritches

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Turning the rear end is also a defensive move- nothing at all to do with kicking, and you need to be sure that this is not what is happening before you"punish" anyone for anything. Time and again I see on here that swinging the rear end should be "punished" and this is just not the case. In some cases you could end up with a really confused, thoroughly frightened animal. A horse will swing it's rear towards you if it is startled or feels threatened. If what Anna is suggesting were to be happening, your gelding might be reacting towards you in fear, not aggression. If you "punish" this you will damage the relationship, possibly severely. You need to stand back and look hard at the big picture before any thoughts of crops and bopping are even thought about....

Amen to this, and my hat is off to AnnaC, Rabbitsfizz and MiniMor for stating a very valid point! Turbo was OBNOXIOUS about this as a colt, he'd turn his butt to you 24/7 and clamp his tail and threaten to kick like lightning and a lot of people told me I needed to swat him on the rump and correct the behavior. Thankfully I've been around horses long enough to trust my own judgment and it seemed to me that if he was acting out of fear that I was going to be aggressive to him and the first thing I did was swoop down and beat him up for defending himself, I was only confirming his worst fears and causing far more damage! Instead I clicker trained him for turning to face me (a mutually exclusive behavior) and made it fun and pleasant to face me and boring and unrewarding to turn his butt to me. Once he lost a bit of the defensiveness I started gently correcting him for turning the bum (a gentle verbal correction and firmly but lovingly shoving his rear away) and then made a renewed fuss when he turned to face me. As he got older and the testosterone really started kicking in the behavior returned with a vengeance and this time it had an aggressive, testing edge. He'd pin his ears and kick out if I kicked or smacked him with my hand so I got the whip and let him have it across the rear as soon as he swung around! That shook up his attitude and he figured out in a hurry that things were a lot more pleasant when he approached me with respectful ears. It was hard for me to be that firm but a couple of friends used to handling stallions showed me in no uncertain terms that such drastic measures were called for in order to remain safe and that if I nailed him hard and fast the first couple times I wouldn't have to do it again whereas "lighter" corrections were ineffective and meant we never got to be trusting friends.

The problem is my boys are in exactly the same situation as your two- an older, aggressive gelding and a much younger one who can't have the alpha position but doesn't like being bottom of the herd, and when you combine that with boredom and lack of work they get nasty. Turbo is a holy terror in that situation! But after a day or two of work he settles down and once again becomes friendly and respectful and doesn't seem to mind being so far down the totem pole as he doesn't have all that bottled up energy looking for an outlet. I try to be fair and give him a little leeway in that situation as I understand where he's coming from, but at the same time there are lines he isn't allowed to cross and he knows it. Handling these guys is SO much like being a parent!

You have to know when to put your foot down about a sassy mouth and when to bite your tongue and give them The Look without actually saying anything.

Leia

 

[KLM]

Most, and I say most of mine swing their butts to me for scratches. Pistol will always have his butt to you if you dont have treats for him. His idea of affection is treats or a good Butt Scratching. Sit in a chair and he will sit in your lap!

(thats my knee in the bottom left corner, I was clipping muzzles and he decided he needed to sit in my lap instead)