Imagine My Surprise

[outlawridge]

Absolutely perfect name for a very pretty little surprise. Congratulations and glad to hear she is doing well.

 

[Dona]

What a BEAUTIFUL little girl!

: She has such a pretty face.

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Is her Daddy "Crunch" a Silver? Your little girl looks like she may be a Silver Buckskin.

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[CountryHaven]

Thank you again everybody.

Ooooh Dona what a can of worms you just opened. I had pretty much convinced myself that I'd seen buckskin babies born so light (in their dark markings). No, absolutely no silver on either side...BUT. Daddy Crunch is a gray. He's a very slow graying, gray, but he's definately a gray. Do you think the lightness of the dark areas could indicate the gray gene at work? She has no indications around her eyes or muzzle (what might appear light in the picture around her muzzle is really not, it's just the sun light.)

 

[Jill]

She is SO precious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[Dona]

Thank you again everybody.

Ooooh Dona what a can of worms you just opened. I had pretty much convinced myself that I'd seen buckskin babies born so light (in their dark markings). No, absolutely no silver on either side...BUT. Daddy Crunch is a gray. He's a very slow graying, gray, but he's definately a gray. Do you think the lightness of the dark areas could indicate the gray gene at work? She has no indications around her eyes or muzzle (what might appear light in the picture around her muzzle is really not, it's just the sun light.)

Ahhhhhhh...but what color was he before he started graying? Could he have been a Silver or Silver/combination (silver carrier) color?

 

[CountryHaven]

Here is Crunch (taken from one of Kay's posts on the forum)

Oh hey, now there's a question. I was under the impression that silver always showed (except for in sorrel). So if the horse didn't show silver, it did not have the gene.

 

[kaykay]

i have asked what color crunch was but no one seems to know?? I highly suspect he was black as his winter coat looked like a solid black horse until I clipped him. Crunch is 4 this year so he is going grey slowly. I love his tail

his pedigree says grey sire and dam. dam was michigans momma mia. But I do know a lot of shetland breeders put grey for grey and silver.

oops one more thing thats odd. Crunchs mane is still solid black. High (frans colt) has a mane that looks silver jsut like your filly. Why would they already have grey manes?? I cant help shaking the feeliing that the silver gene snuck in here somewhere

 

[CountryHaven]

i have asked what color crunch was but no one seems to know?? I highly suspect he was black as his winter coat looked like a solid black horse until I clipped him. Crunch is 4 this year so he is going grey slowly. I love his tail

his pedigree says grey sire and dam. dam was michigans momma mia. But I do know a lot of shetland breeders put grey for grey and silver.

oops one more thing thats odd. Crunchs mane is still solid black. High (frans colt) has a mane that looks silver jsut like your filly. Why would they already have grey manes?? I cant help shaking the feeliing that the silver gene snuck in here somewhere

I simply don't see how silver could 'sneak' around in a black based horse. Am I mistaken on that? In PM's Dona and I were also discussing the possibility of the sabino gene in Crunch. Do you think that's a possibilty Kay? (Could explain the pinto face markings on high.)

Also, as an aside: at what age do you know if the blue eyes on a foal are going to stay blue? This baby has some of the most crystal blue eyes I've ever seen, and I've had several born with bluish eyes that didn't stay.

I keep telling Dona I'm going to start a seperate post on color for this baby. But it seems to be going well in here, so I'll not take up any more band-width for a seperate post.

 

[kaykay]

oh yes i definately think he carries sabino. you can see in that pic the one white hind but you cant see the star on his head. He definately had/has a star but when i clip him you can barely see it. wonder if lyn has a pic of momma mia??

heres the pic where you can barely see the star

 

[CountryHaven]

Then I'm definately thinking it could be the sabino gene that is making the foal's manes and tails lighter. What do you guys think? Possible sabino buckskin here?

 

[Dona]

Well....Crunch definitely does not appear to be carrying Silver either.

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Don't know if Sabino could actually lighten the manes/tails from birth like that or not. It looks like a typical characteristic of the Silver gene at work. This one has me baffled.

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Maybe what we are seeing on the foal, is the lighter "guard" hairs that are on both sides of the mane on some Buckskins?

BTW....do you know the colors of the grandparents?

 

[CountryHaven]

You know, I never really looked at that pic you posted in the way I am now Kay, but now I'm really going to ask... are we sure about the grey thing at all in Crunch? (I know it's a funny question, but think about it). If you look at that head shot you posted, that really looks more sabino than grey. And the fact that in the winter he gets SOOOO dark. Like sabinos often do when the heavy hair comes in, it darkens the base color. It's confusing because in the body shot I posted above of Crunch, he really does look like the 'traditional' grey. One of my favorite forms of it in fact. But stepping back a moment and thinking about it... they way he's 'greying' isn't typical. And the fact that we haven't known him long enough to know if he really is fading, or if the color he is now (both winter and summer) are the color he's always been, and will be forever and ever.

Thoughts on that?

 

[Dona]

Well.....I went back & looked at all the photos again, too.

I do think that Crunch shows "typical" graying....lower tail graying up, dappled stage, etc. That being said...it's also possible that he carries Sabino as well. But, all of the Sabinos I've seen/had over the years don't keep the very dark manes & tails. They have uniformly scattered white hairs all thru them, gradually turning to a salt/pepper gray look. (they don't lighten on the body first & keep the manes & tails dark as some grays do)

After looking at the foal pictures again.....I truly believe she is carrying Silver.

I noticed that this mare was bought already bred. Does anyone know for sure if it's possible that another stallion is the Daddy????? I would like to know what colors the grandparents are!

 

[kaykay]

i really feel hes a true grey. i think that is whats making his tail go white. heres a good pic of his mane though that is really almost still solid black. keep in mind this is before he gained his weight back

donna heres is his pedigree

Dams side shows all grey horses. Sires side shows sorrell great grandsire. everything else shows grey. michigans momma mia and then her dam is michigans SILVER momma mia but that is probably a refernce to grey??

 

[CountryHaven]

Well.....I went back & looked at all the photos again, too.

I do think that Crunch shows "typical" graying....lower tail graying up, dappled stage, etc. That being said...it's also possible that he carries Sabino as well. But, all of the Sabinos I've seen/had over the years don't keep the very dark manes & tails. They have uniformly scattered white hairs all thru them, gradually turning to a salt/pepper gray look. (they don't lighten on the body first & keep the manes & tails dark as some grays do)

After looking at the foal pictures again.....I truly believe she is carrying Silver.

I noticed that this mare was bought already bred. Does anyone know for sure if it's possible that another stallion is the Daddy????? I would like to know what colors the grandparents are!

As I said in my PM to you Dona, you sure do know how to use that can opener. Yes that's another posibilty still. Let's just say that there would be room to question the parentage. Only DNA will tell for sure. Kay, if you're still willing to DNA crunch, I'd be willing to DNA Shocker. On my end, I'd really like to know.

There are enough similiarities in the two foals born (both mares purchased from the same place at the same time -- both mine and Fran's, and the stallion was purchased by Kay and Fran then as well from the same person) to assume they both have the same father--I know that's a rough assumption, but going with that, it seemed reasonable to think that the seller's assertation that Crunch was indeed the sire seemed plausible.

I'm still not saying it's not. But there is room for question on it.

 

[Dona]

Well.....I went back & looked at all the photos again, too.

I do think that Crunch shows "typical" graying....lower tail graying up, dappled stage, etc. That being said...it's also possible that he carries Sabino as well. But, all of the Sabinos I've seen/had over the years don't keep the very dark manes & tails. They have uniformly scattered white hairs all thru them, gradually turning to a salt/pepper gray look. (they don't lighten on the body first & keep the manes & tails dark as some grays do)

After looking at the foal pictures again.....I truly believe she is carrying Silver.

I noticed that this mare was bought already bred. Does anyone know for sure if it's possible that another stallion is the Daddy????? I would like to know what colors the grandparents are!

As I said in my PM to you Dona, you sure do know how to use that can opener. Yes that's another posibilty still. Let's just say that there would be room to question the parentage. Only DNA will tell for sure. Kay, if you're still willing to DNA crunch, I'd be willing to DNA Shocker. On my end, I'd really like to know.

There are enough similiarities in the two foals born (both mares purchased from the same place at the same time -- both mine and Fran's, and the stallion was purchased by Kay and Fran then as well from the same person) to assume they both have the same father--I know that's a rough assumption, but going with that, it seemed reasonable to think that the seller's assertation that Crunch was indeed the sire seemed plausible.

I'm still not saying it's not. But there is room for question on it.

Alrighty then... :lol: I'm going to go out on a limb & bet that if tested, Crunch is not the daddy to the filly in question. After looking at the filly's photos again.....Silver is definitely entering into the picture from somewhere. And neither Dam or Crunch "appears" to be carrying it. Please keep us posted when you get the DNA reports.... I'm very curious!

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[kaykay]

i do not mind dnaing crunch at all!! would be happy to. just let me know which lab to use as we need to use the same one right??

 

[CountryHaven]

Yeah, we need to use the same one. I used to have the UC DAVIS color genetics page with the submission necessities on it, but that was on my old computer. Does anyone have a link to a genetics testing site?

 

[kaykay]

i would really prefer animal genetics. they are much faster etc. www.horsetesting.com

aw dang it animal genetics isnt doing parentage. I heard uc davis was really slow. any ideas?

 

[Joyce]

What a beautiful filly and you were very lucky to find her and she was ok. Congrats.