If you knew someone was banned from a big horse breed

[ruffian]

I've learned that someone who was a big name trainer in a big horse breed was banned for life from that breed due to Unscrupulous behavior is entering the world of the small equine. It cost the other registry hundreds of thousands of dollars. Should the small horse officials be made aware?

 

[MyLilShowGirl]

IMO...Definately!! Even if the registry doesnt care....at least they know! Its just like if a proven sex offender moves into your town...you are made aware of it. This is the same situation....I say go for it

:

Thanks for looking after us :aktion033:

-Kris

Edited to Say: Make sure they take you seriosly and be prepared to give evidence

 

[hhpminis]

I guess to me it would depend on what the unscrupulous behavior was and if the person had changed and learned a tough lesson. Would I be careful of any business dealings, yes I would, but in this day and age, you need to be very careful to protect yourself from getting sued. It is funny how the offenders seem to almost have more rights then the victims sometimes.

Just be darn sure of your facts and really think it through.

I appreciate your concern for our registries though.

 

[mininik]

Okay... you've got my attention. Who is it? PM please?

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I would want to know, but again you don't want to take on the liability necessarily of libel. You may want to contact your area director and discuss it with them. If someone has been banned for life, that to me says some very serioius infractions. I see some of the things done in our registries that don't even get a public rebuke, let alone suspension!

If you don't mind letting me know via PM, or at least which breed and the time frame - I'll figure it out. I'd rather be forewarned about this especially if the person has that type of history.

 

[Robin1]

I don't know what to tell you.

: I know a "trainer" that has been "training" mini's for a few years now that has been banned for life from at least one breed for life.

: No he/she has not changed. It makes me sick to see him/her with these little guys. :new_shocked: Owners have been warned by not just me, many don't care, its the winning they want. :no:

Robin

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Why does everyone think you need to get involved personally and that there is any risk??

If this person hasbeen actually banned from another Society, the findings of the disciplinary committee will be printed somewhere.

All you need to do is send a copy of these findings to the AMHA/R and let them do the rest.

No risk to yourself whatsoever.

It is only libel/slander if it cannot be proven to be true.

Anything that cannot be proven is rumour or gossip- THIS is where we need to discriminate.

Now- was the person actually banned or did they agree to leave??

I f the latter then you have no right to assume anything and I would keep quiet.

If the former, all has already been proven for you.

 

[Happy Valley]

I think you should let someone know. As Rabbitsfizz suggested, you could simply mail documentation and your name would never get involved.

 

[mizbeth]

I guess to me it would depend on what the unscrupulous behavior was and if the person had changed and learned a tough lesson. Would I be careful of any business dealings, yes I would, but in this day and age, you need to be very careful to protect yourself from getting sued. It is funny how the offenders seem to almost have more rights then the victims sometimes.

Just be darn sure of your facts and really think it through.

I appreciate your concern for our registries though.

I agree with this statement! Make darn sure what you are saying is correct and can be backed up with written documentation, perhaps from the registry you are talking about. Gossip is gossip no matter what, written facts takes a bit more effort on everyones part to prove or disprove.

You could ruin someones career with slanderous remarks or you could be saving many of us from this persons fraud/abuse. You know how our "miniature horse grapevine works" and how so much of the information that is passed along gets changed a bit from each passing.

Beth

 

[Minimor]

I will PM you for the breed this person was expelled from.

Unfortunately, even if the person were to be expelled from 3 big horse breed registries--I don't think that there is anything AMHA/AMHR can/would do to prevent this person from becoming involved in Miniatures. Until he/she actually does something that violates the rules of the Miniature registry--AMHR or AMHA would have no reason or right to bar him/her from their registry. You can tell the registries, but I just don't see it going any further than that.

Gradually people in the Miniature breed will become aware of this person's history; depending what the offense was it may or may not put people off of dealing with him/her.

If it were one specific person that I know of that was expelled from one registry, I wouldn't keep quiet about it--I wouldn't take out any full page ads about it, but if I were talking to you & you mentioned this guy's name I would say, oh him, you know he was expelled from this registry for doing this, & I can point you to the registry report that documents the full investigation & punishment. I think that's about all that you can do. As long as the whole matter was documented by the other registry--and it will be a matter of public record if he was expelled from a registry--then it isn't libel to pass that on by word of mouth.

 

[Margo_C-T]

Rabbitsfizz(and others)are right; it would be best to simply(and anonymously, if you wish, provide the documentation from the other breed association/registry. Official actions should be a matter of record(even in AMHA, on the RARE occasions when disciplinary action is actually taken, in recent years,at least, it is published in the breed publication(as it should be!);this was also true years ago when I was still getting the QH Journal, and the APHA magazine.

I would encourage you to do just that; however, that said, I sadly doubt if it'd mean that such a person would be denied entry as a member. It doesn't appear to me that there is any reciprocity of any sort between horse breed registries/equine associations to try to ensure that a bad apple, tossed from one, doesn't pop up in another. IMO, though, once action(suspension, lifetime banning, etc.)has been taken, there SHOULD be a record, where anyone who wished could check to see if someone they are considering doing business with is listed!

It would not be a bad idea at all, when considering sending a horse to a 'trainer', to ask for verifiable proof of their 'horse history'-i.e.,asking what horse-oriented associations have you been a member of, and for how long; who, if anyone, have you apprenticed/studied under(and what is that person's reputation),how many years, and what kind, of experience do you have, and similar questions. Then, VERIFY their answers. If they don't want to answer such questions, or your inquiry turns up problems--RUN!

(There was a case several years ago where several 'big names' in the H/J world (USEF, formerly the AHSA)who were actually suspended for their proven parts in an insurance fraud scheme-long story short, they had KILLED healthy horses for the insurance proceeds, among other horrible things!. At least one of them is nearing the time when that person can apply for reinstatement; however, there is a petition circulating that these people NEVER be allowed reinstatement(into USEF)--and I sincerely HOPE that the petition is successful! Word is that at least one of the 'bigger' names involved again has clients(unbelievable, to me!), and badly wants 'back in'--may H*LL freeze over before that is allowed, is all I can say!!)

 

[sfmini]

I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole sorry to say. Too much legal liability involved. However, word will get around quickly, I just hope people aren't hurt.

There is a mini breeder that has been in minis for a very long time and let me tell you they have been kicked out of more breeds than this person and while they don't show anymore they are still breeding and people think a lot of their horses. I have a horse of their breeding and all I will say about that horse when asked is that at least on paper that is his pedigree. These people have been involved with many other species as well. Let's say I just cringe.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=18pt]AS Jody said, There are lots of you who have horses from a particular old time breeder that was banned from the Arabian Registry before for falcifying papers..... I wont post here who it is but I wont buy from them either! The registry was also warned before.... nothing will be done....thats one of the reasons dna testing was started but thoses horse before 1995 grandfathered in not requiring DNA so the dna started with that genenration of foals... even without parent qualifying every foal born people slip false papers under the radar.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Minimor]

:bgrin

Never mind. I shouldn't go there....here!

I believe I could copy an interesting article for y'all. And it all happened post-DNA requirements in another breed. DNA is not foolproof, even with PQ being done. It's just too new, & there are still horses that can slip under the radar!

 

[Bess Kelly]

:bgrin

Never mind. I shouldn't go there....here!

I believe I could copy an interesting article for y'all. And it all happened post-DNA requirements in another breed. DNA is not foolproof, even with PQ being done. It's just too new, & there are still horses that can slip under the radar!

TRUE.....some can still slip by but it will help limit those, at some point. Hey, locks are for the honest, yes?

But if we make it harder and harder to lie, someday things will get to the preventable stage. If we don't at least try to get there, we never will.

I'm for trying

:

 

[user 488]

LOL.........but really not funny. Once a snake, always a snake. These people just don't learn. Many people have come from big horse breeds to Minis either because of being banned from other breeds or the fact that they could not cut it in the big horse world. There are plenty of those breeding and showing Minis right now! It's nothing new!

:

 

[Minimor]

Oh for sure, I'm all for trying with the DNA & such too--someday it will be pretty much foolproof, once every horse is DNA'd & PQ'd, & comes from at least 3 generations of DNA'd/PQ'd horses. Even in this case it was bloodtyping that put an end to it all, it's just that it did take a long time to get to that point.

In a different case, same breed, there were several horses expunged from the registry. A few years later one of those horses reappeared in the showring, gelded & showing under a different set of papers. Someone recognized the horse, questioned it, & DNA proved that indeed it was the expunged horse. There was an explanation for how the horse came to be matched up with the wrong papers (horse was sold a couple times, & one bay horse looks much like another bay horse)--but DNA sorted that all out.

So, I'm not at all saying DNA is a bad or useless thing, I just meant it's not yet perfect, not even as perfect as some people do believe it to be.

In any case, like I just commented to someone--in this case you do have to give this person credit for knowing how to pick a good horse.

:

 

[Lewella]

What I find interesting in the case Ruffian is referring to is that the individual in question is not only suspended for life from a big horse breed but is also suspended until further notice from USEF (effective date of 11/11/03). ASPC is a USEF member.

 

[Boinky]

hummm if the person in reference is suspended not only from a big horse registry but from the USEF and the ASPC is a member of USEF then by all means the AMHR/ASPC SHOULD ABSOLUTELY be notified. I would think that person would also be banned from AMHR/ASPC because of it's conjunction with USEF. I'm not sure if AMHA is part of USEF but perhaps it should be notified as well just FYI sake. The registry's can so choose to keep an eye on these individuals if they haev some sort of warning even if they CANNOT ban them from the registry.

 

[HGFarm]

Robin1, I know of whom you speak and unfortunately it was not a lifetime ban. That particular person has a barnful again. It still continues.

I do not know of any breed registry that can do anything about it or that will choose to get involved. If they were involved elsewhere, it is up to the ones who had the offense taken against them to file charges, etc... another association cannot touch that with a 20 foot pole as the 'crime' or offense did not happen with them. Just beware- (and please PM me, I am curious also)

I have come across a few that I choose NEVER to do business with, due to lack of morals and ethics that I have personally encountered and.... well I could really get into a huge story here, but never mind.... Robin1 I am SURE you know some of the instances I am refering to!

We certainly dont need unscrupulous folks, but it happens. Just beware!!