If excuse for checks is "safety"...

[disneyhorse]

...in the breed ring the driving horses are judged primarily on their outline and action, just like in a halter class. A completely green horse will often win if it's the fanciest mover or has the highest headset, never mind that it's on its forehand and there's a more correctly trained older horse in the corner with a bit less flash. In the ADS horses of completely different action will go head to head and are judged on how well each horse is achieving the goals of the training scale rather than how well they match a generic outline. The horse can be incredibly beautiful or flashy but if he's tossing his head, jigging, or otherwise acting up he will not be placed. The Steady Eddy pony will win because he's a pleasure to drive even though he's not as eye-catching.
One type is judged on the horse himself, one on how well the horse is trained to drive, and Reinsmanship, of course, is judged on how well the horse is being driven. Three very different methods of placing the class.

Leia

Leia... I want to point out that I believe your statement above is the REAL MEAT of this discussion. I sort of believe that checks are partly there for safety, but I think the REAL reason is for the PURPOSE of the breed ring.

The breed ring sees a LOT of green horses. And when I say green, I mean "may or may not have a solid driving foundation under them, perhaps even having less than a month between the shafts and possibly without even ground driving more than a week before being hitched."

Now, some people DO take the time to break their horses, I am NOT saying that, I am just saying that I am betting there are more than one or two horses that hit your ring each year that are TRULY green broke. Therefore, an overcheck IS going to be a little safer than having these youngsters who may not be properly broke go around the ring bucking and getting their bridles off on the ends of the shafts (because have you ever seen anyone hook a horse too far ahead or back in the shafts at a mini show? I sure have...) and go running off. It's a lot safer to ME to have the horse just rear up and flip over upside-down in the shafts and let people try to cut it free than to have it running around in panic.

And as to kickstraps and breeching not being "the norm"... I don't think either one are banned from the breed ring. The purpose of the breed ring is to be as stripped-down and elegant as possible, so "less-is-more." You certainly can't go around in your Jerald and show harness anywhere else except in the breed ring! The saddles and breastcollars are super thin and I don't think the traces would hold up for long with REAL use. Therefore, since the breed ring is always going to be flat and well-groomed, there is no purpose for breeching (I've never had a problem without it, or thimbles, or anything! I mean, the horse stops ONCE in the class and it's not on a hill). And as to the kicking strap... well I imagine a judge asking what it was, and then having it on there would basically be an admittance to your horse's ill behavior in the judge's mind! No one else's horse in the ring has the strap, so your horse must "have a problem." I think that's maybe what the suspicions are.

At any rate... the PURPOSE of the breed ring is NOT to have a super-well-trained horse, sorry guys. I just don't believe it. In the breed ring, you walk, trot, reverse, walk some more, trot some more, and then stop and back up two measly steps and then you're done. If you have such a highly trained animal, I don't see how this would be fun for the horse OR the driver. It is extremely elementary work! The PURPOSE of the breed ring is not to have a pleasurable drive (although if you do, that makes it all the better!) it is to COMPETE and show off the ABILITY your horse has.

The purpose of the breed ring (halter and driving) is to compare your animal to others, and see if you can stack up to others who are selecting and breeding similar animals. Therefore, you are promoting your animal and double-checking against others to see if it will stack up and make a more valuable breeding animal, so that you may continue to produce animals that have the in-bred ability to look pretty and trot well. Sure, some of these offspring will further show and compete, but other offspring will go off to have careers in ADS or whatever and need the good conformation and natural athletic ability from their parents to do their job efficiently and with longevity.

Sooo.... you show your youngster in halter from ages weanling to three. As a three year old, you then have the opportunity to add performance titles to its belt, and you rush to break it to drive before you retire it to breeding.

So, with the push to keep up with futurities and other younger horses also competing, you throw the cart on, check it up, and ask for as much action/motion as you can get. The judge is looking (in the breed ring) for a SNAPSHOT of what the horse is ULTIMATELY able to do. How high it can possibly carry its head with flexion, and how extreme it can trot. A horse that has the natural ability to hold its head that way and trot that big may have genetic ability to pass these desirable qualities to its offspring... and the horse may then follow a more naturalistic training method down the road or its offspring might... but no matter HOW you train a horse, if it is not built to drive and carry itself well, no training can overcome what the horse is able to do. You cannot fight conformation, temperament, and heart and hope to win.

I have never seen the problem with how the breed ring conducts itself. It is NOT a form of dressage, nor should it be. Dressage-type driving is a lifelong partnership with a horse and the training far exceeds the amount of time that people generally are looking for in the breed ring when they need to promote their next genetic lineage, breed it, and see what the results are. The breed ring is constantly seeking a better horse, not seeking to improve the horses that are already sitting around.

Gee... sounds harsh after re-reading that... but that's kind of how I feel. I just see the opportunities in both breed ring driving and the dressage type driving. For all the similarities, they are whole different worlds. Maybe its like the difference between graphic design artists and oil painters. Both are skilled artists... but the graphic designers have to produce cutting-edge art quickly, and the oil painters take far longer to produce just one piece but it is just stunning. Both arts have value, but they are whole different worlds.

Andrea

 

[Sue_C.]

the PURPOSE of the breed ring is NOT to have a super-well-trained horse, sorry guys. I just don't believe it. In the breed ring, you walk, trot, reverse, walk some more, trot some more, and then stop and back up two measly steps and then you're done. If you have such a highly trained animal, I don't see how this would be fun for the horse OR the driver. It is extremely elementary work!

If done PROPERLY it is NOT elementary work at all. What exactly do you propose one DOES with "such a highly trained animal", as a horse that is actually BROKE?

The purpose of the breed ring (halter and driving) is to compare your animal to others, and see if you can stack up to others who are selecting and breeding similar animals. Therefore, you are promoting your animal and double-checking against others to see if it will stack up and make a more valuable breeding animal,

But there are lots of people who show, who are not breeders, who have no intentions of being breeders, and show because they LIKE it...and enjoy showing off both their skill as a driver, and the training their horse has received. Even myself, as a breeder, would never think of showing my horses the way you've discribed. To WHAT purpose does it prove, to go into the ring, with an unfinished, and potentially dangerous horse? How does THAT promote my breeding to show a horse not to the best of it's abilities. To me...that is short-changing my breeding program, my horse, and myself.

 

[Mark & Sharon Bullington]

Leia -

The reason THIS announcer kept calling for a header for you when I first saw you is that (and you appreciate this more and more as you grow older) you look much younger than you appear

.

Mark

 

[disneyhorse]

To clarify a little, Sue C...

There are tons of different reasons to show at a breed show. I myself am not a breeder, I show purely for hobby and fun. I enjoy breaking and training green horses and find it rewarding (if I didn't, I probably wouldn't spend the time and money!

) I would guess a lot of people in the miniature horse industry show in driving just for fun... but I have noted that it is getting more and more competitive, as people want performance titles on their breeding stock to go along with halter titles. However, the performance titles are much harder to come by, as you have to invest a lot more time and money to get a return on your horses' potential.

However, breed shows are very expensive shows to choose to do "for fun" and there are a lot more "fun" and challenging shows that you can participate in with a more "highly trained animal." The American Driving Society around here has shows that offer a lot more driving classes (Reinsmanship, Timed Cones, Obstacle, Double Jeopardy, Gambler's Choice, etc.) than the breed shows do. Breed shows, except for the rare driven obstacle classes, are generally elementary driving. There is less need for instant response, bending, and the classical collection in the breed ring than you might find needed elsewhere. In many breeds, horses are only "broke for the show ring" and you would never see them driven outside an arena. Perhaps less common in the minis, because of the sheer ease of driving them due to their size and temperament. However, I have seen lots of training barns of ALL breeds where the horse is trained in harness or under saddle SPECIFICALLY for the show ring and it does not venture out of an arena much if at all. The goal is to show at breed shows and win.

I am not saying that this is the only way to do things, it is the right or wrong way to do things, or the way one person or another person does things. It's just how I perceive the breed ring and other driving venues.

I myself am getting a little tired of the breed ring, driving in circles. I want a horse that can sidepass on a dime and keep one cart wheel exactly in place. A horse that can back in an "L" shape if needed. Sorry, but I doubt if you took the majority of horses in the breed ring and asked them to do these things, that they would be able to successfully accomplish them. I think the focus of the breed ring is just different, that's all.

Andrea

 

[willowoodstables]

Okay this is my personal opinion on why headers are mandatory for youth: The header can also undo the overly tight check while the horse is in lineup so that he doesn't rear and go over backwards.

I haven't read the whole thread, but that is the biggest mis-statement IMHO ever. There is NEVER any reason to have to UNDO a check in the lineup if it is adjusted properly. A header (as you mentioned Lori in a previous post) is there to help you especially if the horse beside you is causing a ruckus or what not... NOT to adjust a check..obviously too tight is not right, because the horse wont stand. I get soo uptight in a showring when headers come in and loosen a check so a horse will stand. Geesh, if the check was something there cause rules demand it, the horse should stand at home with the same length of check. Rabbitfizz has in her signature line "dump the check rein" Well, I would LOVE for checks to be thrown out. I never ever use a check to work a pony and maybe I am lucky but my ponies wear the same headset at home as at the show..check is on elastic and is decoration as is the noseband. Aids are just that, like a stronger leg, louder cluck, touch of a whip, not to use as a crutch to get an appearance, or ribbon. There is nothing WORSE than a pony crashing into the rail because the directional pull of the check counterbalances the reins..thus steering is compromised. I might not win at the all the higher levels(but HAVE with great ponies, and they had all the talent and ability as their pony peers), but I am darn sure my pony and I are happy with our go, and his neck isn't sore, and he did his job happily. And the winners don't have any better a headset than him.

This whole safety thing is such crap. What about allowing nylon harness with metal shafts..way more dangerous than a horse with the head down. I personally have had more want to stand on their hind legs (ala too tight check stupid Kim) versus gonna kick my head off..of which the kicking problem should be solved at home, not in the ring on the safety check rein...

Headers..well they should be mandatory regardless of the level or age of driver. ANYONE here ever had the pony beside you decide it is not gonna back up and FLIP itself. WHAT well trained pony that you are driving is NOT gonna react to that, and while you the driver are trying to figure out how to get away, SO are the other 15 drivers and horses in the ring with you are too. SOOO as a header myself, I have had a hold of the horse, spoken to the driver "we're gonna go over here to the left out of the pack) and then gone to stand away from the commotion. Or, you are line up all crooked, header can take horse by the head and straighten the horse and then when judge comes along and says back please, you are at least straight because the other 15 drivers are all cockeyed in the lineup. Or the big annoucement for the winner happens, crowd breaks from silence to loud claps/hoots whatever and your pony takes a jump...header can be there along side the jump to make sure you dont jump on anyone else.

This whole argument over breed shows... to each his own

Off my soap box...Rabbitfizz...Kudos..DUMP THE CHECKREIN and fit your harness and cart properly and let your horse show..if they aint got the talent naturally, they aint never. AND if you want to complain the big name trainers win with a check..never stoop so low to pick up so little.

Kim

 

[willowoodstables]

. In the ADS horses of completely different action will go head to head and are judged on how well each horse is achieving the goals of the training scale rather than how well they match a generic outline. The horse can be incredibly beautiful or flashy but if he's tossing his head, jigging, or otherwise acting up he will not be placed. The Steady Eddy pony will win because he's a pleasure to drive even though he's not as eye-catching.

BINGO we have a winner...Leia, this DOES happen in the breed ring, not all the time, but it does. Because the flashy trotting fool pony is wicked nice for all of 10 steps, Steady Eddy represents the class standard and the judge pin Eddy. I myself have pinned Eddy in classes, where secretly deep down I want to take a stab at Mr. Flash..and make him Steady Eddy with BLING.

Kim

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I read all the time on here that checks are a safety device. Now, I really do not agree, but can understand why some people believe it as that is what they have always been told. Yes, myself I have even said it in the past...and still agree with it...when green drivers are learning.
BUT...in the show ring...do you really think it is used as a safety device?? Seriously, when you look at that check so tight it twangs, holding the head in place; and the martingale holding it down...do you TRUELY think it is because it is safer...or EASIER? Take a look at some CDE drivers with their horses...big or small...they are not even allowed to use a check after training level, and most do not even use it then.

Now...back to the question of safety. IF a check is such a valuable safety tool...WHY on earth do "we" drive with no breeching, and have any of you ever seen a horse driven in the show ring with a bucking or kicking strap? (I know it has been done...but very rarely) IMHO...THOSE are TRUELY safety devices; so why are they not a required piece of equipment? I know it is optional...but if safety is really the concern with checks...why are these other pieces of equipment not as necessary as the check?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Absolutely NO idea, Sue, why don't you e-mail AMHA and AMHR and ask them...I'd love to know the answer!!

Checks are not, any more than martingales, a "safety" devise, that is not what they are there for.

From their inception, almost, they have been used to torture and abuse horses that cannot fight back in any way.

Watch some Hackney classes (please note I said "SOME"!!) if you do not believe me.

Over here Hackneys have to be unchecked as soon as they come to a halt, and there is usually an RSPCA officer around to make sure it happens, although, to be fair, the Hackney people do self police!

They also have a header, and since a harness horse should not be left unattended, I agree completely, a header should be present in the ring and holding the head of the standing horse, this is also a harness horse tradition, you just do not ask horses to stand in unknown company, able to see very very little, unattended.

This really is a safety issue.

I have NO desire to put my horses safety at risk based on whether or not the horse next to me in a cramped line up will or will not stand still without throwing a fit...have you ever seen a pile up in a harness ring...because I have and I do not ever wish to be in the middle of it...it is not pretty!!!

And I will just add that, thanks to the American way of showing coming in with the Mini harnesses, we are now going to be in the unenviable position of coming to the attention of the RSPCA...which is not something with which I wish Miniature Horses to be associated!!!

 

[MiLo Minis]

Okay this is my personal opinion on why headers are mandatory for youth: The header can also undo the overly tight check while the horse is in lineup so that he doesn't rear and go over backwards.

I haven't read the whole thread, but that is the biggest mis-statement IMHO ever. There is NEVER any reason to have to UNDO a check in the lineup if it is adjusted properly. A header (as you mentioned Lori in a previous post) is there to help you especially if the horse beside you is causing a ruckus or what not... NOT to adjust a check..obviously too tight is not right, because the horse wont stand. I get soo uptight in a showring when headers come in and loosen a check so a horse will stand. Geesh, if the check was something there cause rules demand it, the horse should stand at home with the same length of check. Rabbitfizz has in her signature line "dump the check rein" Well, I would LOVE for checks to be thrown out. I never ever use a check to work a pony and maybe I am lucky but my ponies wear the same headset at home as at the show..check is on elastic and is decoration as is the noseband. Aids are just that, like a stronger leg, louder cluck, touch of a whip, not to use as a crutch to get an appearance, or ribbon. There is nothing WORSE than a pony crashing into the rail because the directional pull of the check counterbalances the reins..thus steering is compromised. I might not win at the all the higher levels(but HAVE with great ponies, and they had all the talent and ability as their pony peers), but I am darn sure my pony and I are happy with our go, and his neck isn't sore, and he did his job happily. And the winners don't have any better a headset than him.Kim

I am NOT saying I think this is a good thing Kim! I am just saying that I think that is one of the reasons the AMHR at least, has required headers. Way too many times I have seen horses in the driving ring that will not stand quietly in the lineup because of their check being overly tight and more often than not the header comes in, undoes the check, and then stands in front of the horse who is now quiet. I personally would not want a horse checked so tight it can't stand naturally and quietly. I have watched trainers in the warm up pen have to hold the horses head UP to get the check hooked. We aren't going to be able to stop these trainers from hooking their horses that way as they will continue to do what they feel they must to win but at least we can prevent accidents in the show ring by requiring headers. It is hardly fair to the person like me and you who have properly trained our horses to drive and carry themselves well to have a horse rear and flip out beside us while our horses are being asked to stand quietly. The most hilarious thing I have seen recently was a horse that reared several times while in the lineup was placed FIRST in the class. What are they teaching these judges?

I do not now, and never have, considered a check to be a "safety device". I think they cause more accidents than they prevent. That is just what I was told when I tried to get the word "optional" put in the AMHR rule book rather than "mandatory" as I personally would prefer NOT to HAVE to use a check at all. My rule change was not even presented at convention as it was dismissed as having been previously discussed and ruled as not being worthy of presenting. I don't think you will ever see a rule change unless you get a HUGE contingent of people on board and even then I think you will still hear that it is a "safety issue" and therefore not to be changed.

 

[Carriage]

Sue, I think you hit upon the truth in the other thread when you mentioned checks replacing proper training.
In the breed shows, it is more important to get horses into the ring, get a show record, then get them breeding than it is to train them properly.

I also think it is absurd that any driving horse should need a header when backing!

As for green and youth drivers, if a horse cannot be trusted not to act up, it should NOT be driving by either, especially in the show ring.

Oh well, as I always say, these aren't driving classes, they're halter-in-motion classes.

Susanne and Sue, I think you have nailed it!

No piece of safety gear should ever be a substitute for exhaustive training. Insurance for the unexpected yes, but not a substitute. Some aspects can be used for a "season" until more complete and rounded training is in place and then dismissed.

Had a gentleman discussing safety "short-comings" of a particular cart. All points of discussion went to improbables and EVERY one was a training issue vs. safety shortcomings of that particular cart. When I pointed this out to him he seemed very upset. Perhaps there were other reasons for his disapproval however the ones he trotted out were training issue's.

As to heading, in a non show related accident, had a mini bolt, dumping the boarding rider and connect with not one but two upright 4 by 4 posts which demolished the cart. The gal did admit that she knew she should have headed the animal as she did this with all of her bigger animals.

Again, purely a training issue.

I am a big fan of insurance, equipment wise, for an animal that may spook for understandable reasons. It happens to even the very best drivers, however it should never a substitute for complete and ongoing training and competence. I like Miss Leia's approach to heading. Not really "needed" but fun for both her and Kody during the long waits that plague us high energy go go go types.....

Great topic,

Bb

 

[Relic]

As far as headers l've seen some pretty experienced and well seasoned minis over the years while in the line up spook for whatever unknown reason that is totally out of the norm for them...so crap happens and when it does it happens fast so headers even for the experienced isn't a bad thing and l'm glad to see more adults are using them..

 

[hobbyhorse23]

There have been some amazing, thought-provoking posts on this thread and I've been quite fascinated to read it all. Thank you to everyone who's taken the time to write such involved and eloquent essays!

I will be saving this thread for future reference.

Disney, I was impressed by every word on your post but in order to keep my reply a bit shorter I only copied particular lines I wanted to comment on.

The breed ring sees a LOT of green horses. And when I say green, I mean "may or may not have a solid driving foundation under them, perhaps even having less than a month between the shafts and possibly without even ground driving more than a week before being hitched."Now, some people DO take the time to break their horses, I am NOT saying that, I am just saying that I am betting there are more than one or two horses that hit your ring each year that are TRULY green broke. Therefore, an overcheck IS going to be a little safer than having these youngsters who may not be properly broke go around the ring bucking and getting their bridles off on the ends of the shafts (because have you ever seen anyone hook a horse too far ahead or back in the shafts at a mini show? I sure have...) and go running off. It's a lot safer to ME to have the horse just rear up and flip over upside-down in the shafts and let people try to cut it free than to have it running around in panic.

Now you've got a point there about rubbing their bridles off on the shafts and such, but am I the only one it seems crazy to that people should be showing horses that are so green they are an active danger to themselves and others unless reined in by extra equipment??

Good lord, that's just scary.

(And a good argument for everyone having headers, as others have mentioned.) Still, making checks optional likely wouldn't affect many of those horses because their trainers would still be using checks for just those reasons and the people who chose to take them off would probably be training without them as well so the horse would likely be fairly far along before the owner bothered to put them in the ring.

At any rate... the PURPOSE of the breed ring is NOT to have a super-well-trained horse, sorry guys. I just don't believe it. In the breed ring, you walk, trot, reverse, walk some more, trot some more, and then stop and back up two measly steps and then you're done. If you have such a highly trained animal, I don't see how this would be fun for the horse OR the driver. It is extremely elementary work! The PURPOSE of the breed ring is not to have a pleasurable drive (although if you do, that makes it all the better!) it is to COMPETE and show off the ABILITY your horse has.The purpose of the breed ring (halter and driving) is to compare your animal to others, and see if you can stack up to others who are selecting and breeding similar animals. Therefore, you are promoting your animal and double-checking against others to see if it will stack up and make a more valuable breeding animal, so that you may continue to produce animals that have the in-bred ability to look pretty and trot well. Sure, some of these offspring will further show and compete, but other offspring will go off to have careers in ADS or whatever and need the good conformation and natural athletic ability from their parents to do their job efficiently and with longevity.

Sooo.... you show your youngster in halter from ages weanling to three. As a three year old, you then have the opportunity to add performance titles to its belt, and you rush to break it to drive before you retire it to breeding.

So, with the push to keep up with futurities and other younger horses also competing, you throw the cart on, check it up, and ask for as much action/motion as you can get. The judge is looking (in the breed ring) for a SNAPSHOT of what the horse is ULTIMATELY able to do. How high it can possibly carry its head with flexion, and how extreme it can trot.

Okay, this is interesting. I see what you're saying and in that context the way things are currently done is logical and makes sense. I guess what bothers me is that the rules for the driving classes talk about having manners and going quietly and other things that have nothing to do with how high the horse can trot and yet those rules are completely ignored in actual competition. According to the RULES, it is supposed to be about how well-trained your horse is. But in reality it's about the things you're discussing.

I have never seen the problem with how the breed ring conducts itself. It is NOT a form of dressage, nor should it be. Dressage-type driving is a lifelong partnership with a horse and the training far exceeds the amount of time that people generally are looking for in the breed ring when they need to promote their next genetic lineage, breed it, and see what the results are. The breed ring is constantly seeking a better horse, not seeking to improve the horses that are already sitting around.

Yes, and I suppose at the root of it that's why I dislike it.

For those who do not breed and cannot afford or do not desire to constantly move up to a nicer horse, there is no place for the long-term relationship or hard work over the years with one animal to be recognized. Yes you can improve to a certain extent (especially in the youth classes), but if a nicer horse comes along then BOOM! You get the gate regardless of how idiotic that younger horse might be acting under harness. I find that sad. Of course the better quality horse should win if both are driving equally well, but....

If the goal is always the next generation, when do we appreciate what we have right now? For that matter, what incentive do we have to preserve the current generation's soundness and mental health through good training? Surely there is room for the kinds of driving classes that recognize good partnership right along with the action classes.

The rules we have right now allow for that but are not followed.

Gee... sounds harsh after re-reading that... but that's kind of how I feel. I just see the opportunities in both breed ring driving and the dressage type driving. For all the similarities, they are whole different worlds. Maybe its like the difference between graphic design artists and oil painters. Both are skilled artists... but the graphic designers have to produce cutting-edge art quickly, and the oil painters take far longer to produce just one piece but it is just stunning. Both arts have value, but they are whole different worlds.Andrea

No, you don't sound harsh, especially after that great analogy.

It's just difficult because for instance there ARE no ADS Pleasure Driving shows in my area of the country and I know CDE is not available many other places. That leaves people who would chose that style of driving no place to go and I think that's a lost opportunity for AMHR and AMHA. Pinto shows are great but if your horse doesn't have spots you're out of luck.

Still, why can't we follow their example on how to include many different styles of body-type and chosen training in one show? We don't need new classes, we just need to follow the rules we already have and perhaps take an extra step or two like making checks optional (at least in Country Pleasure, Western, and Obstacle if you still want them mandatory in classes like Single Pleasure or Roadster) and educating our judges better about the wider world of driving. Correct driving or riding is not about performing classical dressage manuevers, it's about training the horse to use themselves in a way that will keep them sound for years regardless of discipline. It should be about putting the horse first. Period.

I'm not asking that everyone switch to training their one-season, soon-to-be-a-broodmare, going-to-Nationals-first performance horse as if it was going to be driving cross-country for years and years. But can't we make room in our rules for those who do chose that? One little word: "optional" instead of "mandatory." It wouldn't change anything for those who wish to keep using checks and wouldn't be hard.

Leia -
The reason THIS announcer kept calling for a header for you when I first saw you is that (and you appreciate this more and more as you grow older) you look much younger than you appear

.

Mark

*grin* Believe me Mark, I know! Besides, as I recall the ring steward at that first show was concerned far more than you were.

These days I know I can count on you to inform them of my legal drinking status before it becomes an issue, something I very much appreciate.

Leia

 

[willowoodstables]

I do not now, and never have, considered a check to be a "safety device". I think they cause more accidents than they prevent. That is just what I was told when I tried to get the word "optional" put in the AMHR rule book rather than "mandatory" as I personally would prefer NOT to HAVE to use a check at all. My rule change was not even presented at convention as it was dismissed as having been previously discussed and ruled as not being worthy of presenting. I don't think you will ever see a rule change unless you get a HUGE contingent of people on board and even then I think you will still hear that it is a "safety issue" and therefore not to be changed.

I agree Lori, sorry if I misuderstood..I truly hate a horse hanging in a check ..geesh if it breaks they will smash their nose into the ground! Is there not a way to send an official survey of members to let us figure out where the membership stands on the check issue. I for one would vote OPTIONAL! Let some of you guys headed to the Convention bring this up..it is time for CHANGE.

Kim

 

[MiLo Minis]

I do not now, and never have, considered a check to be a "safety device". I think they cause more accidents than they prevent. That is just what I was told when I tried to get the word "optional" put in the AMHR rule book rather than "mandatory" as I personally would prefer NOT to HAVE to use a check at all. My rule change was not even presented at convention as it was dismissed as having been previously discussed and ruled as not being worthy of presenting. I don't think you will ever see a rule change unless you get a HUGE contingent of people on board and even then I think you will still hear that it is a "safety issue" and therefore not to be changed.

I agree Lori, sorry if I misuderstood..I truly hate a horse hanging in a check ..geesh if it breaks they will smash their nose into the ground! Is there not a way to send an official survey of members to let us figure out where the membership stands on the check issue. I for one would vote OPTIONAL! Let some of you guys headed to the Convention bring this up..it is time for CHANGE.

Kim

Thats okay Kim - I figured you had misunderstood me

There is a huge rigamarole to getting a rule change done. You have to submit the rule on a very long involved rule change form in the spring. Then the executive board reads it and discusses whether or not they should present it to the appropriate forum at Convention in the fall. At convention it is voted on and passed or not. Mine didn't even get to the Convention and when I inquired as to why I was told that that same rule change had been suggested many times and that it had been decided long ago that checks were a safety consideration and the use of them would remain mandatory. I think it would take a huge outcry from masses of people to even get them thinking about changing their minds on it.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

That's okay Kim - I figured you had misunderstood me

There is a huge rigmarole to getting a rule change done. You have to submit the rule on a very long involved rule change form in the spring. Then the executive board reads it and discusses whether or not they should present it to the appropriate forum at Convention in the fall. At convention it is voted on and passed or not. Mine didn't even get to the Convention and when I inquired as to why I was told that that same rule change had been suggested many times and that it had been decided long ago that checks were a safety consideration and the use of them would remain mandatory. I think it would take a huge outcry from masses of people to even get them thinking about changing their minds on it.

Unless, it would seem, you are on the BOD of the AMHA

I don't agree with the idea of horses going in the ring untrained as OK...sorry, that's silly!

It may not be Dressage standard, but in order to perform under saddle a horse has to have been trained to saddle, not just had a saddle slapped on it's back and have someone get on top that is able to stay on!!

I'm not sure how US show classes operate but here you are not allowed martingales or any other training aid in any ridden class except Working Hunter, and the idea that a harness class should contain untrained green "broke" animals makes me very, very glad I am not showing in the US!!!

The class is there to show off the suitability of the animal for the discipline, in order to show thsi the animal has to be trained not just shut in the shafts and bullied (and it is very easy to bully a Mini) into going round the ring with it's back hollowed and it's head yanked up in the air...that in NO way shows it's suitability for the discipline, it just shows how brutal some people are prepared to be in order to get a rosette.

Shame on you for even thinking this way, let alone accepting it.

 

[susanne]

I totally agree, jane.

It would be one thing if it ended there. The horse that is green broke for what is not really a driving class is then retired to be bred. No harm, no foul.

But several times, on this and on other forums and listservs, I've read of people buying or thinking of buying a mini who is described as "trained to drive" or that said horse has various titles and even championships.

This is an inexperienced person trusting that this means that the horse is a safe, well-trained driving horse, when it may just have had only enough training to get it in the ring.

Of course, we can't protect everyone from themselves, but a newbie doesn't know what they don't know.

I suppose this is really another issue entirely, but it does bother me.

That and the fact that ANYONE would allow their child to drive a less-than-well-trained horse in a crowded arena with other less-than-well-trained horses driven by less-than-experienced youth is truly frightening!

 

[keely2682]

so much here i could comment on

tons of controversy

i use breeching at most shows

i have been using my full cde harnesses not always to positive comments

i agree on checks being a shortcut used by so many in their training

i seem to be constantly retraining horses who cannot drive without a check

"I agree Lori, sorry if I misuderstood..I truly hate a horse hanging in a check ..geesh if it breaks they will smash their nose into the ground"

lol - they almost do

lightening was falling all over himself and trying to balance himself by hanging off my hands

the first time i tried driving him without a check

this year, to most of my mini friends' dismay, i spent months retraining him

to constant comments of-

"he's a national champion in driving what more does he need"

"he's winning why change things" ect

my answer to that was -

i found it frustrating to drive a horse who can't hold himself up

i'm sick of paying chiropracter bills b/c checking him up so high is bad for his back

i don't care what he wins or has won- he isn't fun to drive

i'm going to train him to where i like him, regardless of whether he wins or not!

i think my effort was worthwhile

not only do i enjoy driving him more but he is much more user friendly

he clearly demonstrated this winning the 12 and under wpc class at nationals

with a 7 year old child (he couldn't even reach the floor of my cart while sitting on the seat) at the reins

and a dangling check that helpful people at nationals spent the whole show trying to "fix"

as to leia's comment on breed ring people always getting new and better horses- i'm guilty

i keep hoping to find something amazing (like my tippy and lightening)

i don't breed just drive, so i buy at least half a dozen extra horses a year

i train them and decide if they are "keepers"

but with tippy and lightening to compare the others to, i have high standards

my horses are all trained slowly and well (no horses dangling from checks, all are road/trail safe...)

i have no problem finding good homes for the horses i choose not to keep forever

thank god b/c great new prospects are always appearing and i only have so much room-lol

 

[rabbitsfizz]

" no horses dangling form checks"...I love that!!

Rather we have "checks dangling from horses"...

We should try for a class full and a small sign saying " DUMP the check rein" as a bumper sticker!!!!

 

[Sue_C.]

people buying or thinking of buying a mini who is described as "trained to drive" or that said horse has various titles and even championships.

Yup! That has happened to several people I know. They paid good $$ for these horses with tons of points etc...only to get them home and find they are barely broke, and quite un-safe to drive. Shame on the trainers/owners who sell them like that.

I do have to give huge Kudos to "our" Kim, (Willowwood) for the retraining she did on a gelding she sold to friends of mine. He was the classic example of not enough training...thrown in the ring kind of horse, who had developed into a "hopeless" runaway. Kim bought him, took him back to basics, and turned him into one of the nicest, sanest and winningest youth horses in the Maritimes.

 

[keely2682]

people buying or thinking of buying a mini who is described as "trained to drive" or that said horse has various titles and even championships

i have bought horses like this and know so many others who have

a shame to have a horse that isn't broke enough to drive outside the ring

some trainers at shows hook up horses outside the ring b/c they aren't broke enough to drive across the grounds

they would die watching me by the watering hole at nationals pivoting my horse by voice command b/c i have too many drinks in my hands to properly drive -lol

i was marvelling at an ad on the saleboard the other day

the people wanted a driving horse who would be "sane/safe in traffic and on trails" "not take off" ect

i shook my head wondering what prior experiance led her to post this ad

i would expect this of every horse

the description would fit everything i own- including horses i consider green broke!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I can remember telling my Farrier my Shetland mare was well trained to drive, so much so that I rarely bothered bridling her for our runs out to deliver the hay to the others,( just slipped a halter on)

He turned up to shoe one of the big horses as I was coming back in with the cart....as everyone well knows a halter that will slip on will also slip off and the mare trotted through the gate he held open for her without anything on her head at all, and me following along behind trying to stay calm....I had taken a bit too long, she felt, to unload the hay so she had decided to come back for her feed, now she had a lunge rein attached to her halter that I could keep hold of, but I was not paying her the attention I should have been and she just rubbed the halter off on the fence and, well, basically, walked home!!

I always had a feed ready for her when she got back to the yard so she walked past my astonished Farrier and buried her nose in it.

Children PLEASE do not try this at home!!!!!!

Very luckily for me she was, in truth, very well trained to drive!!!!