I thought this was interesting...

[RhineStone]

This comment was made on another forum by someone else in regards to Rollkur or hyperflexion....

"This reminds me of something I once saw in a Roadster class at a major Miniature Horse Show. In the show ring, Minis wear both overshort over-the-poll check reins and running martingales, and their drivers, at least from what I've seen, seem absolutely determined to keep both their horses' heads up and their chins tucked to their chests. I don't think there's a way to make it more difficult for a tiny horse to pull both cart and full-sized driver.

In the Roadster Class, speed is what gets you the win. While I watched, these little horses were forced to trot faster and faster, with no chance to stretch their necks out and round their backs. Finally, one mare literally collapsed at full trot....just dropped mid-stride. People ran to unhitch her and get her up, including her driver, who called out to the crowd, unbelievably, "Don't worry. She just ran out of air."

She just ran out of air. Being forced to trot as fast as she could, with her windpipe constricted until she dropped from lack of oxygen. That was JUST running out of air.

If someone did that to a human being, it would be called torture. With horses, it seems like this is sometimes seen as just doing what you need to win.

What are the judges and officials who regulate these sports thinking?"

I did not see this class, or any other Roadster class for that matter, but I find it interesting how other drivers interpret the mini breed driving arena. While I am guessing that maybe this is the exception rather than the rule, but if this is really the case, I can't say the writer is too far off....any comments?

 

[R Whiteman]

I did not see this class, or any other Roadster class for that matter, but I find it interesting how other drivers interpret the mini breed driving arena. While I am guessing that maybe this is the exception rather than the rule, but if this is really the case, I can't say the writer is too far off....any comments?

Perception is everything and as drivers of mini horses, we always need to be aware of that every time we are in the public eye. Just the act of getting behind a horse that is often smaller than his driver, is perceived as cruel. Certainly in the minds of some, the checkrein is in and of itself a torture device. After all many of us were raised with Black Beauty. Anyone who ever sees a mini horse show may see training devices, training techniques that are contrary to what they think are safe and kind. This is certainly not exclusive to minis, nor is it something every one of us who competes there subscribes to. We must remember that horsemanship is always an act of education in progress and ignorance is everywhere. We were recently at a party where most of the guests were dressage riders. They were discussing a CDE where a tipover occurred in a hazard and groom and driver put the carriage to rights, checked out their horse and equipment and continued on. The party guests were appalled at the cruelty of someone who would do that; the horse should have been unhitched, led quietly back to the barn and retired for the day. These were educated horsemen and women, just not in the sport that they were discussing. I am not condoning the use of overtight checks or overtight martingales. Far from it, I am appalled when I see it and make my points where I can with education. It is hard for a "newbie" to resist when they think (from what they see the judges using) everyone has to do something to compete.

I love horses; I have loved horses since I was old enough to realize it, but I am sure that along the way some horse somewhere "suffered" at my hands. God bless all those trusting, hardy souls who made me what I am today, and those that continue to educate me with their patience, tenacity and quiet solid strength.

Dorothy

 

[Minxiesmom]

I read this also.

I don't want to start any sort of arguments on training styles,

but dressage people absolutely hate overchecks of any sort. The ones around here act like it is horse abuse to use one. I think it all goes back to the Black Beauty film where they were making the horse pull a heavy wagon up hill with a tight overcheck on.

The show ring is (usually)

not like this. I have heard them say that a horse will always have a hollow back and can't use there backend when checked up. My horse doesn't seem too hollowed out in his back when checked up. His back feet usually overstride his front feet in the extended trot by a few inches. What is the problem here? He isn't mad when he is checked and he is light in the bridle.

This horse doesn't have a real laid back shoulder so he physically can't hold his neck straight up, but his check is relatively tight. When doing obstacle driving or trail driving, I lengthen the check so he can drop his head lower to pull.

The other thing I hear often is the horse is pulling with the saddle, instead of pushing into the breast collar. This is an equipment adjustment problem. My single tree is working constatly when we are driving. That tells me the breast collar is doing what it is designed to do.

I am sticking my neck out here to say these things so don't come back and flame me for saying my piece,

but it hurts to hear people say that I am abusing my horse, when I don't think I am. Checked horses in driving has been tradition for a LONG time. Does that make it ok? No, not when done improperly. Most horse equipment, in the wrong hands, can be abusive. I find, with this horse I don't need a martingale, with other horses you might. When they are trained right and the equipment is adjusted correctly, this equipment is not abusive. I can't help it when people don't know how to adjust their equipment properly,

but that can be seen in any descipline.

(Posted at the same time as Dorothy, and she said it nicer!)

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Excellent posts from both the original blue text writer, Dorothy and Diane.

I think you all said it very nicely!

I have heard them say that a horse will always have a hollow back and can't use there backend when checked up. My horse doesn't seem too hollowed out in his back when checked up.

I've seen your photos- Max isn't "checked up" the way those people mean it.

He has a snug check on but it's loose enough that he can round up and move correctly; it just goes tight when he does. The sort of "checked up" they're referring to is when the horse is being pulled into a false frame much higher than the horse could naturally hold and his musculature is completely upside down. A horse in that position is physically incapable of moving through his topline properly.

I don't agree with the BTP (blue text poster) where she implies that "the Little Horses were forced to trot faster and faster until one collapsed"

as most roadster horses I see are perfectly thrilled to throw on the speed and are in fact turned out the same way Standardbred race horses are as far as the overcheck. Where I agree with her however is that using equipment to force the horse to such a constricted frame that they are roaring and even collapsing shows a complete disconnect between reality and the lies we tell ourselves to make it okay. I too have been passed in a Country Pleasure class by a miniature checked up so tight his breathing was audible from half the ring away and then watched that horse win over quiet, happy, nicely-moving horses with elegant headsets. In a country pleasure class!!

It drives me crazy.

But as Diane said that is a case of improperly used equipment and poor driving and not the equipment itself being evil. I do see a few shining examples (and Diane's gelding is one of them) of horses who are in fact properly tracking up, using their toplines and moving comfortably in spite of an overcheck but I always wonder in those cases if the horse would have been even better without it. It seems to me that if the driver has the skill to adjust that check in such a way that it doesn't interfer with the horse's development then they were probably skillful enough to have developed the horse without it in the first place.

You've got to remember- the original criteria for "correct movement" was the type that would keep the horse sounder, longer, and make it easier for him to do his job. It's hard for classical dressage enthusiasts to accept that sometimes flashy movement in and of itself is the goal and the horse's development over time has nothing to do with it!

I can accept that as simply a different way of doing things as long as the horses are happy but so often the tools meant to help show the horse what is wanted are turned into torture devices in ignorant or uncaring hands.

That is true in Western Pleasure, saddleseat riding, jumping, ridden dressage, driving and just about every other discipline these days. It's sad, but since remedying often willful ignorance is so difficult it sometimes seems easier to try and outlaw the devices themselves in order to force people back into doing things the longer, more horse-friendly way.

I'm not saying it works, just that it's tempting!

Leia

 

[R Whiteman]

I don't agree with the BTP (blue text poster) where she implies that "the Little Horses were forced to trot faster and faster until one collapsed"

as most roadster horses I see are perfectly thrilled to throw on the speed and are in fact turned out the same way Standardbred race horses are as far as the overcheck. Where I agree with her however is that using equipment to force the horse to such a constricted frame that they are roaring and even collapsing shows a complete disconnect between reality and the lies we tell ourselves to make it okay. I too have been passed in a Country Pleasure class by a miniature checked up so tight his breathing was audible from half the ring away and then watched that horse win over quiet, happy, nicely-moving horses with elegant headsets. In a country pleasure class!!

It drives me crazy.

Being driven crazy and frustration are a part of horse showing, it seems, and sadly so. Unfortunately judges have to take some of the responsibility for these kinds of placings. The same judges seem to find it difficult to tell the difference between an open pleasure driving horse and a country horse and now the new western or classic driving horse. But, in their defense, they can only place what they see in the ring and until more people take their nice horses into the show ring in the correct classes, correctly and beautifully driven (as both Leia and Diane do) and give the judges some options, and more important, some education, nothing will change. We horse people are our own worst enemies. We all think that our way or our horse sport is the best one and all others are abusive, stupid, etc. As Leia and Diane so nicely stated there are good and bad practices in every facet of the horse industry. None of us are without blame. But we do ourselves and our fellow horsemen a serious injustice when we stand on the sidelines and scream abuse before investigating the facts.

Just for the sake of illustration, I watched a youth country pleasure class at the Western Regional show several years ago. The horses were in the middle of their second trot work when one horse fell to the ground unconscious. The young lady driving the horse fell out of the cart onto the horse. The action stopped and the horse was unhitched. Seemed it had held its breath and passed out. I saw the same thing happen at another show in the line up as horses were waiting to back. Neither horse was checked up really tight and both drivers were panic stricken to think that they might have "killed" their horses. Both horses recovered from their "faint", were vetted sound to continue and did. I've had horses who did this and also some that were quite noisy when they were nervous and that was without the check.

Yes, sometimes things are as bad as they appear to be...but not always.

Dorothy

 

[jegray21]

That was interesting. Sounds like what people used to say about the use of draw reins or curb bits. I agree with the point that in the wrong hands some of our training tools and equipment can be so abusive. There certainly are many ways to get flashy movement some are fair to the horse and some are not. I would like to see that they do not require a check in the breed shows. It certainly is possible to get flashy movement with out one. My little grey mare is super good at being high in the neck and tucked and horribly hallow and flashy knees! Drives me crazy! I guess she wants to be a roadster horse...

 

[RhineStone]

Considering that the BTP was comparing Roadster classes to Rollkur, my guess is that they were referring to the artificial constrained headset of the horse, not whether or not the horse was wearing a check. They were concerned about whether or not the horse could breathe and whether or not the driver cared as to whether or not the horse could breathe, as evidenced by the comment of the driver, "She just ran out of air." Simply putting a check on a horse will not make it so the horse can't breathe.

Drivers need to understand that in the big horse breeds, you try to use a horse that has the conformation for the discipline, using the horse's own frame to achieve the desired result, not the other way around. You can't use a low-headed QH in a Saddle Seat class. Doing so would defeat the purpose. Find a discipline in which your horse can be successful, don't artificially frame up your horse to suit your desires. If you want a high-headed Saddlebred, go buy one, but don't try to "make" one.

I think that the BTP and we all agree, the judges need to be educated and responsible to make sure that the placings are rewarding good "horsemanship" as it relates to the performance of the horse.

Myrna

 

[Minxiesmom]

Just for the sake of illustration, I watched a youth country pleasure class at the Western Regional show several years ago. The horses were in the middle of their second trot work when one horse fell to the ground unconscious. The young lady driving the horse fell out of the cart onto the horse. The action stopped and the horse was unhitched. Seemed it had held its breath and passed out. I saw the same thing happen at another show in the line up as horses were waiting to back. Neither horse was checked up really tight and both drivers were panic stricken to think that they might have "killed" their horses. Both horses recovered from their "faint", were vetted sound to continue and did. I've had horses who did this and also some that were quite noisy when they were nervous and that was without the check. Yes, sometimes things are as bad as they appear to be...but not always.

Dorothy

OMG!!! I think I might be a little upset if Max ever fainted in a class!!!

I tell myself to breath, never thought I might have to remind my horse to breath!!!

We had a AQHA stallion, many years ago, that would roar when he was worked. Had something to do with a little flap in his throat. It was pretty loud, but didn't hurt him a bit according to the vet.

 

[disneyhorse]

Well, yes this absolutely can and does happen (horses checked up too tight).

Roadster horses SHOULD be trotting at speed... AND they should be maintaining a headset. It's not ALL about being "the fastest"... it's "the fastest IN FRAME" to some degree. That is my take on it.

The AMHR RuleBook states :

At all speeds, horse should work in form.

I take this to mean you don't just throw the lines to the horse and let them nose out and work out of form (stretch their necks out and round backs). So therefore, the horse should maintain it's frame and headset.

However, the horses' conformation and abilities must be taken into consideration... as should always be the goal no matter what discipline we are training our horses for.

Andrea

 

[hobbyhorse23]

At all speeds, horse should work in form.
I take this to mean you don't just throw the lines to the horse and let them nose out and work out of form (stretch their necks out and round backs). So therefore, the horse should maintain it's frame and headset.

A horse who is nosing out because the reins have been thrown away will not round up his back- he will flatten out and lose all impulsion. That is not what anyone wants!

But rebalancing the horse to the rear through half-halts then sending him on and allowing him enough rein to stretch forward and lengthen his frame will indeed give a lovely, balanced, powerful trot. I'm talking softening your fingers and elbows, not visibly moving your hand forward.

The horse will still have his head on the vertical and at the same height but his shoulders should be higher and his rump lower with more powerful engagement. Lifting the root of the neck that way frees up the esophagus and palate area, allowing that lovely "hinged" look at the poll and enabling the horse to breathe freely. A horse who is motoring forward on his forehand with his underline muscles bulging will find his airway constricted and be unable to move out with any power.

There is definitely a time where you will let the horse physically stretch his neck forward and down with no regard to his nose, but that's in an early stage of training and should be long over with before the horse hits the ring as a finished roadster or Pleasure horse.

You can't use a low-headed QH in a Saddle Seat class. Doing so would defeat the purpose. Find a discipline in which your horse can be successful, don't artificially frame up your horse to suit your desires. If you want a high-headed Saddlebred, go buy one, but don't try to "make" one.

As everyone has said, I think the biggest thing is not trying to put a round peg in a square hole. Find the right horse for the job and don't try to force one who isn't suited to move in a way he's not built to move.

Leia

 

[Carriage]

As everyone has said, I think the biggest thing is not trying to put a round peg in a square hole. Find the right horse for the job and don't try to force one who isn't suited to move in a way he's not built to move.

Leia

Miss Leia's first sentence is so key to success in a great many things in life.

You can, with enough force, get a square peg into a round hole. However it does little good as its core nature has not changed and it will still "think and function" as a round peg. The difference between force and shaping becomes evident not only in the finished product but at every step along the way to the finished product. Force as it pertains to this topic will never result in a truly finished product either physically and/or mentally.

If I choose the wrong material at the outset, in my business, I can't reasonably expect that the finished product will perform nearly as well as when I choose the proper material at the outset.

Choosing the right material also saves steps and time as it will more readily be "shaped" to its intended purpose AND I won't have to take further steps/time in order to force it to my purpose. The same applies to management. In a military setting it would be referred to it as the toolbox. It would apply to both material and personnel. Given a specific task you would reach into your toolbox and apply the proper "tool" to the task at hand. In other words you don't put a blind guy on point!

The same applies to the driving horse. Choosing the right individual at the outset will, in general, lead to a more streamlined training regimen with much less hassle and force. I keep thinking of Miss Susanne's Mingus as an example. While I don't know all the intricacies of conformation, I do know what I see specific to Mingus' "attitude" towards driving. In his mind he is born to it and is very serious about his chosen vocation. It only takes an observant person a few seconds to see this in him. This mindset will more than likely overrule any perceived conformational shortcomings. I am NOT saying that he has any conformational shortcomings and I would not be the judge of that anyway. I am saying that I believe it starts with the horses mind and attitude. If it is not sound for driving than it really doesn't matter what kind of body a driving prospect has. I'll take enthusiasm and exuberance over pretty any day of the week. To close on Miss Leia's last sentence, there is a point conformation-ally that the horse is just not suited for driving. It would be a real bummer if said horse had a heart for it, but couldn't. In this case I would be looking for other outlets for this horse as that "heart" needs an outlet of some sort, eh?

Thanks for letting me share,

Bb

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Nicely said, Bob.

I am saying that I believe it starts with the horses mind and attitude. If it is not sound for driving than it really doesn't matter what kind of body a driving prospect has. I'll take enthusiasm and exuberance over pretty any day of the week. To close on Miss Leia's last sentence, there is a point conformation-ally that the horse is just not suited for driving. It would be a real bummer if said horse had a heart for it, but couldn't. In this case I would be looking for other outlets for this horse as that "heart" needs an outlet of some sort, eh?

I found myself smiling sadly at this as that's exactly what's happened to Mr. Kody. He has the heart, the attitude, and the talent, but his body was not built for the stress I put it under and has finally failed. I don't know if he will ever drive again and if he does, it will certainly not be to the level he'd achieved before he was injured.

Leia

 

[susanne]

Bob, I found your post to be extremely moving -- not simply for your comments about Mingus, which he and I both greatly appreciated, but because I, too, thought instantly of Kody when you discussed a horse with the heart to drive but who no longer could. The very thought makes me want to cry, as Kody is truly all heart. I so clearly remember the little red man zipping around the Peninsula Saddle Club track and infield and opening up down the beach. Even if he never returns to his former competetive level, I sure hope to at least see him having fun doing what he loves.

 

[jimi]

I have to agree with this post , as so many times you watch a mini roadster class or are in it, and they all RACE by you to see who is the fastest Sometimes checks cranked up tight , sometimes heads out like a road rat and all looking so bad , but fast is what they want and race by not carin about anthing but go go go.

The rule states to show your different gates and this includes speed as well, but it is a horse show and regardless of the type of horse you try to balance your frame for the horse to keep him comfortable and show at his best speed to control your frame and try not to get that snake head look, and not beat the breath and style out of your show horse. Style, comfort and frame then all come together and if you can hang in with this and at the same time have great speed, you are really lucky!!!!

 

[Carriage]

I was thinking of the Kodeman too. I did not know until Miss Leia's post that he was done specific to exhibition type driving. I will still be hopeful that he may be able to do low stress driving at some point. What a bummer! Still, to take a different view angle. Miss Leia took a horse with significant health issue's and danged near made it to the top classification. Had the Kodeman not had this kinda heart and mind and Miss Leia not been the Mom she has been, it woulda never happened! Bringing strength to my point that I'll take a Kody package over a "pretty" package ANY day of the week!

Here is an example that didn't cross my mind, the disabled horse with a huge heart and the right stuff mentally. It will be exciting to see how Miss Leia creates an outlet for this drive. (pun intended) She better as he's gonna be pretty miffed to have another take HIS place doing HIS thing......

Beautiful day to everyone,

Bb

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Yes, he IS going to be miffed and I sure hope one of you guys has an idea about that outlet because I've spent a year with him completely out of harness trying to think of one and I'm not having much luck!

The only time he looks like the so-vital fiery redhead I remember is when he's out with the baby or going for a walk; the rest of the time that special spark is dimmed by his resignation and sometimes pain.

I'm fairly confident that in a few years when Turbo is all grown up Kody will be making a reappearance at least in the breed ring as a tandem leader since he seems to be okay for long-lining and a tandem leader is basically long-lining out in front of the other horse. I don't know however if he'll be able to handle a marathon course to do it in CDE or (for that matter) if Turbo will turn out to be strong enough to haul me and a navigator both as the ADS requires for multiples. I had hopes they could be a pair with a light enough vehicle and maybe that will still happen someday, but that's a question it would be a waste of time to ponder right now.

Sorry for dragging the thread so far off the original topic! Maybe I should start a new one....

Leia

 

[Mominis]

I think you pegged it, Rhinestone. The dressage people are working with horses that are built differently than a horse who would be conformationally suited to be a more trotty horse. They look for a longer frame and the horses that they purchase are built to suit that. A trotting horse, on the other hand, is more upright conformationally. It's a totally different animal. I would never check up a Thoroughbred with their more (guess I should strap on the flame suit) downhill balance and longer frame, as it would immediately cause them to hollow out and not be able to use themselves. People who have not worked with a horse that is built as the trotting horses are built, just can't equate their horse's training to the training required for these divisions and therfore it must be wrong.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I think you pegged it, Rhinestone. The dressage people are working with horses that are built differently than a horse who would be conformationally suited to be a more trotty horse. They look for a longer frame and the horses that they purchase are built to suit that. A trotting horse, on the other hand, is more upright conformationally. It's a totally different animal. I would never check up a Thoroughbred with their more (guess I should strap on the flame suit) downhill balance I get what you mean...should we say perhaps "horizontal" instead?

They're uphill in the traditional sense but not upright as a Hackney or Saddlebred is. and longer frame, as it would immediately cause them to hollow out and not be able to use themselves. People who have not worked with a horse that is built as the trotting horses are built, just can't equate their horse's training to the training required for these divisions and therefore it must be wrong.

I guess the problem I get stuck on is that most miniatures are not currently built as trotting horses are and yet people try to force them into the same frame using the same techniques. For a horse who is built to move that way it is almost effortless and I have no problem with the techniques used to enhance that movement as long as it does not sore the horse. I may not like it, but that's a personal preference.

Please understand that my tastes are shaped by the fact that my equine best friend is an Arab who was used hard for Saddleseat when he wasn't built for it and the action devices and such ruined his tendons and gave a very well-conformed horse terrible arthritis and a lot of mental issues. I don't want to see that happen to another horse if I can help it so I tend to be pretty strong in my feelings about the horse suiting the discipline.

From the video you've posted Mominis, training your new guy for fine harness action is very much putting a square peg in a square hole.

I've meant no offense by my comments but the majority of readers here probably have minis built more like my own, for whom a really tight check and then being pushed fast can be torture. I have to aim my comments on this at the majority just as Rhinestone and MiLo do and, for the majority, shoving the horse into a false frame with tight check and martingale then pushing them as fast as they can go can lead to severe problems such as the original BTP was commenting on. Good horsemanship should always be the first priority, whatever the style you are showing!

Leia

 

[Shari]

Nicely said, Bob.

I am saying that I believe it starts with the horses mind and attitude. If it is not sound for driving than it really doesn't matter what kind of body a driving prospect has. I'll take enthusiasm and exuberance over pretty any day of the week. To close on Miss Leia's last sentence, there is a point conformation-ally that the horse is just not suited for driving. It would be a real bummer if said horse had a heart for it, but couldn't. In this case I would be looking for other outlets for this horse as that "heart" needs an outlet of some sort, eh?

I found myself smiling sadly at this as that's exactly what's happened to Mr. Kody. He has the heart, the attitude, and the talent, but his body was not built for the stress I put it under and has finally failed. I don't know if he will ever drive again and if he does, it will certainly not be to the level he'd achieved before he was injured.

Leia

One reason I haven't been driving Maggie as much... between the weight of her cart, my new size and the terrain we have, the most we do is noodle around on the fairly flat area around the house. Maggie has the heart and willingness to try her hardest to do what ever I ask but she is not built to handle my new weight, not with these hills.

If some day I can afford a Hyperbike, then I will go that route with her. That would make a big difference. She loves driving but I also don't want to hurt her. I still take her for walks and she wears her sawbuck and pannier to help me do chores.

But until then...as the weather starts getting better I will continue with Theia's training and getting weight off her. She is going to be a power house.

 

[Mominis]

I think you pegged it, Rhinestone. The dressage people are working with horses that are built differently than a horse who would be conformationally suited to be a more trotty horse. They look for a longer frame and the horses that they purchase are built to suit that. A trotting horse, on the other hand, is more upright conformationally. It's a totally different animal. I would never check up a Thoroughbred with their more (guess I should strap on the flame suit) downhill balance I get what you mean...should we say perhaps "horizontal" instead?

They're uphill in the traditional sense but not upright as a Hackney or Saddlebred is. and longer frame, as it would immediately cause them to hollow out and not be able to use themselves. People who have not worked with a horse that is built as the trotting horses are built, just can't equate their horse's training to the training required for these divisions and therefore it must be wrong.

I guess the problem I get stuck on is that most miniatures are not currently built as trotting horses are and yet people try to force them into the same frame using the same techniques. For a horse who is built to move that way it is almost effortless and I have no problem with the techniques used to enhance that movement as long as it does not sore the horse. I may not like it, but that's a personal preference.

Please understand that my tastes are shaped by the fact that my equine best friend is an Arab who was used hard for Saddleseat when he wasn't built for it and the action devices and such ruined his tendons and gave a very well-conformed horse terrible arthritis and a lot of mental issues. I don't want to see that happen to another horse if I can help it so I tend to be pretty strong in my feelings about the horse suiting the discipline.

From the video you've posted Mominis, training your new guy for fine harness action is very much putting a square peg in a square hole.

I've meant no offense by my comments but the majority of readers here probably have minis built more like my own, for whom a really tight check and then being pushed fast can be torture. I have to aim my comments on this at the majority just as Rhinestone and MiLo do and, for the majority, shoving the horse into a false frame with tight check and martingale then pushing them as fast as they can go can lead to severe problems such as the original BTP was commenting on. Good horsemanship should always be the first priority, whatever the style you are showing!

Leia

You have a MUCH better way to put that, thanks!

I think I would like to have your closing line printed on a T-shirt:"Good horsemanship should always be the first priority, whatever the style you are showing!" Bravo!